Are You Pro-Life?

[blue_ladybug]

Believe it or not, most people who are convicted of murder in the US do NOT receive the death penalty. There are many states that have even outlawed it.

Executions in the US are really quite rare, and there is a very high standard set in giving out a death sentence.

Or, like some prisoners, such as Manson, they ARE given the death penalty, yet to this very day, still sit on death row, just waiting and rotting. :/

 

[notuptome]

Secondly, Jesus stood in the way of an execution of a guilty party that was sanctioned by law.

You do know that the accusers were as guilty as she was? They would stone her and allow the men to go scott free. It was not the severity of the law that was in objection but that it was a biased court.

What of stoning false prophets? Did God not establish a very severe punishment for sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KimPetras]

Evidence. Usually it all comes down to evidence. People get set up, framed, and yes, sometimes the set up is discovered and the innocent accused exonerated. Other times the innocent one ends up in jail and eventually death row, simply because the evidence was manipulated to show that they did it. In a court of law, sometimes all you need is circumstantial evidence.

For example, say "John" had a physical fight with "Jane" and several people witnessed this. Then a few hours later, "Jane" is found dead in her house. What NOBODY knows, is that while John and Jane were out on the sidewalk fighting, someone was in Jane's house waiting for her, and kills her when she comes in from fighting with John. Let's say the intruder is her ex-husband "David", and he was just as abusive as John is. David attacks Jane and kills her. Jane had physically fought with John, so HIS dna is under her nails, but yet David surprised her from behind and bashed her head in. So none of his dna on her body. Now, David's dna is found in her house, because he goes there to see his kids, so Jane's neighbors know it's normal to see David coming and going to and from Jane's house.

The witnesses who saw Jane fighting with John on the sidewalk, talk to the cops and give their testimony. John's fingerprints are found on the bat that killed Jane, because he owns it, uses it to play ball with Jane's kids, AND because his prints are the ONLY ones found on it, because David wore gloves while handling the bat to kill Jane. So John gets arrested because they have his prints on the murder weapon. Meanwhile, David has set up a rock solid alibi for where HE was when Jane was killed, because he knows he'll be a suspect, because the ex or husband is who they look at first. Cops know he had violent history with Jane, yet none of his DNA is on the murder weapon, so he is exonerated while John gets sent to prison because, for one, he has no alibi for the time Jane was killed, and his DNA is on the murder weapon.

This is a prime example of how and why some innocent people are imprisoned while the guilty party goes free. It all boils down to what the evidence (allegedly) shows.

That is a great scenario to consider the fallibility of the judicial system. This just shows only God can be 100% perfect in judgment. It's a little unusual for me to find someone that actually thinks the government is actually perfect in judgment on something.

Thank you for your post.

 

[PoetMary]

As for your second scenario, as you aren't from the US, maybe in your country there are examples of the State executing innocent people. I am not aware of any innocent person here in the US being executed. Now, some have been found guilty, and sentenced to Death Row, but prior to their execution, Justice ended up being served, and their innocence was found out. The Appeals Process here in the US for Death Row inmates is so long and drug out, that it is almost impossible for an innocent person to be executed.

There may be one that I am not aware of, but I can not think of any instance this has happened, so your question is moot.

A simple trip to wikipedia sorts this out:

The Death Penalty Information Center (U.S.) has published a list of 10 inmates "executed but possibly innocent".[SUP][6][/SUP]At least 39 executions are claimed to have been carried out in the U.S. in the face of evidence of innocence or serious doubt about guilt.[SUP][7]


[/SUP]
You can get more information about the details at deathpenaltyinfo.org

 

[PoetMary]

Or, like some prisoners, such as Manson, they ARE given the death penalty, yet to this very day, still sit on death row, just waiting and rotting. :/

Manson is not on death row.

Manson's death sentence was automatically commuted to life imprisonment when a 1972 decision by the Supreme Court of California temporarily eliminated the state's death penalty.

 

[blue_ladybug]

The government is FAR from being perfect. Guilty people get imprisoned every day, right along with the innocent ones. In my example, if God was 100% perfect in judgment, then David would have been shown to be the real killer, and John would have been set free. If anything, my example shows how IMperfect the government can be. If people in government were psychic, they would have known David actually killed Jane, and John didn't..lol

 

[KimPetras]

Several issues come to mind here...

First is those who most oppose abortion are often those who most support the death penalty. It's like they believe all life is precious - until it's born.

Secondly, Jesus stood in the way of an execution of a guilty party that was sanctioned by law.

There are cases in Acts where people were put to death, but that was by the Holy Spirit in response to their lying to God. Not because of the infraction of some man-made law.

And finally, if you don't trust the government to run things like welfare and health care, why would you trust it in deciding one's life and death?

I have to agree with everything you said.

Do you have the actual passage where Jesus stood in the way of an execution? I've not heard or read this until now.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Manson is not on death row.

Manson's death sentence was automatically commuted to life imprisonment when a 1972 decision by the Supreme Court of California temporarily eliminated the state's death penalty.

He may as well be on death row..He's gonna die in prison..

 

[PoetMary]

I have to agree with everything you said.

Do you have the actual passage where Jesus stood in the way of an execution? I've not heard or read this until now.

It's the story of the woman caught in adultery. It's in the gospel of John 8:1-11.

Not only did Jesus stop the men from executing her, but he also stopped his own disciples from violence when he was being taken for his own execution.

 

[PoetMary]

Personally, I have serious problems with the death penalty, both philosophically and practically.

Practically speaking, there is a serious lack of fairness in the application of the death penalty. For example, more men are given the death penalty than women for similar crimes. A black man is more likely to get the death penalty if he kills a white person than if he kills a black person. A person is more likely to get the death penalty if they kill a police officer.

If a law is applied capriciously or with great bias, it seems like it's not very useful.

Additionally, it is ENORMOUSLY EXPENSIVE. Part of the expense is because we want the state to be afforded every opportunity to make certain of the person's true guilt. So, people are allowed time to appeal. However, if people were just given life in prison for capital offenses, the savings to the state would be enormous.

Philosophically speaking, I find it interesting that Christian Americans who demand that the laws of America reflect Christian values when it comes to abortion, do not make the same demands for the death penalty. Clearly the death penalty is an exercise in societal revenge. There is LOTS of evidence that the death penalty does not actually deter people from committing murder. Why else then would society enact the death penalty? It's for the sake of vengeance. The bible tells us that GOD exacts vengeance, not us.

Personally, I would think that Christians would want to maintain the lives of the most reprobate in the hopes that they would come to know Jesus. After all, Paul engaged in societally sanctioned murder against the early Church, and God completely transformed him.

I also find it interesting when Christians point to "an eye for an eye" (which Jesus addressed directly in the NT) because they don't feel the need to follow other civil laws given in the OT. I don't hear Christians talking about how adulterers should be killed (although that was an OT law), or how disobedient children should be killed (another OT law). Our thinking about adultery and sassiness has evolved so that we feel like killing someone for these sins would not be appropriate. Perhaps our thinking about murderers should also evolve. Perhaps Christians should encourage FORGIVENESS and RECONCILIATION over the desire for revenge.

I am not God and would never make a decision to take a life....because I am not God. Truth be told *I* deserve death for all my sins. I've never murdered, but I've committed sins that would have garnered the death penalty according to OT laws. Because of the grace I've been given, I am not comfortable acting as if other people are unable to access God's grace.

 

[Billyd]

I'm pro life and pro capital punishment.

 

[Mitspa]

If folks cant see the difference in killing babies and bring justice to killers...then I doubt you understand much about the Lord and His Ways.

 

[jennymae]

I don't think we should be killing people, not unborn babies nor others. Leave that to the good Lord Himself. There are another ways of bringing killers to justice. There's already too much killing taking place.

 

[KimPetras]

PoetMary, I thank you for your post. I feel as though I'm not the only one, here at least, who feels that exact way. You were able to articulate your beliefs better than I could ever hope to.

 

[Mitspa]

I don't think we should be killing people, not unborn babies nor others. Leave that to the good Lord Himself. There are another ways of bringing killers to justice. There's already too much killing taking place.

Well ..neither do I, if it was left up to me...but it is a part of our laws and it is biblically justified... Im not sure that it deters crime..which is supposed to be its purpose.... But who knows maybe it does and maybe it has saved some lives?

 

[KimPetras]

If folks cant see the difference in killing babies and bring justice to killers...then I doubt you understand much about the Lord and His Ways.

Or if folks mask the argument as "killing babies vs bringing justice to killers" instead of "killing the unborn vs killing the potentially innocent".

Semantics is a fun game for some. Not for me.

 

[KimPetras]

I don't think we should be killing people, not unborn babies nor others. Leave that to the good Lord Himself. There are another ways of bringing killers to justice. There's already too much killing taking place.

I totally agree. However, there are many that feel execution is the only way to bring justice to possible killers/potentially innocent people. As if they are unable to see a different punishment which doesn't involve playing God and taking human life away.

 

[Mitspa]

Or if folks mask the argument as "killing babies vs bringing justice to killers" instead of "killing the unborn vs killing the potentially innocent".

Semantics is a fun game for some. Not for me.

When you ues terms like "pro-life" ..its not hard to understand that folks who use the term to defend the lives of babies, would want to make it very clear, there is a huge difference! And I am for the life that is saved when these criminals are taken off the streets.

 

[Mitspa]

Something very common we see on this forum ..folks who seem determined to defend and excuse evil..while they attempt to attack and accuse those who are godly. Very odd spirit, some folks seem to have?

 

[KimPetras]

When you ues terms like "pro-life" ..its not hard to understand that folks who use the term to defend the lives of babies, would want to make it very clear, there is a huge difference! And I am for the life that is saved when these criminals are taken off the streets.

Life in prison does not equate to releasing possible killers back into the streets. This is another straw man argument.

I'm not understanding the issue with using "pro-life". I agree, defend the lives of the unborn, but defend the possible innocent as well. Just because they are already born doesn't make them any less worthy of saving, nor is it misusing the term "pro-life".