81% of Christians think Christianity is following rules in the bible

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Feb 7, 2015
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#21
FORSAKEN AT 55 MILES PER HOUR (Jeff Turner)
Did Sin Separate Man From God?

“Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate.” -Karl Barth (1886-1968)

Steve and Pam were a happily married couple of more than ten years. After trying unsuccessfully to have children for the first few years of their marriage, their doctor confirmed their heart breaking suspicions that they were unable to do so. And so, after some time had passed, they began looking into the option of adopting. Several months of scouring through material, consulting with other adoptive parents, and talking amongst themselves passed, and they finally came to the conclusion that it was the right thing for them.

They’d decided that they would not adopt a baby, but an older child, out of foster care, and particularly, one who had been the victim of very rough circumstances. They finally decided upon a young man named Adam, who was ten years old, and had formerly lived with his now deceased, drug addicted mother. His father had never been a part of his life, and had left his mother sometime during her pregnancy. Adam grew up in an environment that was rife with instability, violence, and drug and alcohol abuse. Young Adam had also suffered all sorts of abuse at the hands of his mother and her various “house guests”, and had more than a few scars scraped into his vulnerable, young psyche.

Knowing Adam’s history, Steve and Pam, prior to the adoption, acknowledged the fact that there might come a day when Adam exhibited some extreme and rebellious behavior. They went into the adoption knowing the severity of his former living situation, and preemptively discussed the problems and issues that might arise as a result. In fact, they went into it not thinking that he might go through a rebellious phase, but as if it were a given. However, they agreed to love him regardless, accept him as he was, and raise him as their own.

As anticipated, after having reached the hormonal age of thirteen, Adam began to rebel. He frequently indulged in many of the very behaviors that had ended his mother’s life, and could be found hanging out in environments much like the one from which he had been rescued. This is precisely what Steve and Pam had prepared themselves for, and they’d even preemptively planned on how they would bring loving discipline into young Adam’s life in these situations. The last thing that they had wanted to do was to further scar the boy by heaping guilt and shame upon him. However, when push came to shove, and Adam actually began to rebel and misbehave, it was as though the couple had forgotten all about their prior parenting plans.

Steve and Pam called a family meeting and sat Adam down to discuss the situation with him. The boy sat feeling ashamed and expecting the worst. After all, his past experiences of mental and physical abuse had trained him to expect the least and the worst from authority figures. However, such loving, understanding parents as Steve and Pam would certainly not treat him in the harsh and abusive ways with which he had grown accustomed, right? Steve looked down at an already distressed and disheartened Adam, and spoke to him sternly, “You have brought shame and disgrace upon this family and have dishonored my name. As a just and honorable man, I simply cannot continue calling you my son. As of this day, I am stripping my name from you, and am taking away your inheritance. Our family is no longer your family. You see, Adam, I am just too good of a man to be the father of a misbehaving miscreant such as yourself. Our natures are simply no longer compatible.”

“Not only am I stripping you of the privileges of sonship and our family’s name, I also forbid you from ever entering this home again. You are no longer welcome here. As an upright man, I simply cannot care or provide for such a wretch as you.”

Steve continued,
“In addition to this, I hereby strip you of the right to fellowship with either myself, or the woman that you once called mother. You are not our son, and you may not speak to us as though you are. You may refer to me as ‘sir’, and to my wife as ‘ma’am’. For not only has the nature of our relationship changed, the relationship itself will, from this moment forth, cease to be. But regardless of what you choose to call us in your depraved imagination, we’re not listening.”

“We have spoken to the courts, and have had a restraining order placed upon you. At the conclusion of this conversation, you are forbidden to be within one thousand miles of us. If you ever happen to find yourself within sight range of us, it will mean terrible things for you. Our relationship is severed, over, and done with! From this moment forth, we will speak to you no longer. Your days as an orphaned, unloved wretch begin now, as we hereby separate ourselves from you! Do you understand me, ‘orphan’?”

Could you imagine that broken, defeated young man, shuddering and weeping as he listened to all of this? Can you see the anguished and pained look spread across his face? How could this child ever possibly recover from such horrendous treatment by those whom he had once called father and mother? Truth be told, he probably never would. The memories of that moment would haunt his conscious and unconscious mind forever. He’d never feel complete, loved or secure again. Such an event would undoubtedly devastate him, possibly even irrevocably so.

What happened to good old, compassionate Steve and Pam? What happened to those adoptive parents who’d had foresight enough to prepare to deal lovingly with Adam’s rebellion, long before it ever occurred? What happened to their paternal and maternal instincts when faced with that which they had already foreseen? The cold, irrational and schizophrenic behavior which they displayed in that cruelest of moments is enough to sicken even the worst of parents.

Now, if the tale of Steve and Pam sounds slightly fantastical, and a bit too-bad-to be-true, it’s because it is. However, as ridiculous, cruel and irrational as Steve and Pam’s behavior was, many Christians would have us to believe that the eternal Godhead behaved in a very similar way in the wake of Adam’s fall.

There is a widespread, almost ubiquitous idea that has embedded itself into the very fabric of all things Evangelical, and it is the thought that sin brought separation between man and God. We have an image in our minds of God being flabbergasted, and offended beyond words by Adam and Eve’s actions. He had given them one simple prohibition, “don’t eat from that tree”, but for some reason, they couldn’t even obey that one simple command! As a result, God became enraged, and in His righteous fury, banished man from His presence. After all, God is holy, and now, because of his evil actions, man was not. God and man became like oil and water, and just wouldn’t mix.

Right..?
 
T

thepsalmist

Guest
#22
Amen...well said...and this is where those that have the need to "work" the rules to "maintain righteousness " have a very hard time to swallow.

Can we really just live by the life of Christ inside of us? Can we really trust the Holy Spirit to lead us? Can we trust that the fruit of His life in us being love is what we can live by now?
I agree fully with what you say here Bruce.

I would just like to stress that it is important to know God's ways, rules, likes and dislikes so that we can distinguish whether or not we are walking in the Spirit or walking in the flesh at any given moment. I think it's good to have a clear notion of Christ's identity (ours in Him) and our fleshly nature's identity so that we can nab that thief "the flesh" when he starts to get headstrong. :)
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#23
Amen...well said...and this is where those that have the need to "work" the rules to "maintain righteousness " have a very hard time to swallow.

Can we really just live by the life of Christ inside of us? Can we really trust the Holy Spirit to lead us? Can we trust that the fruit of His life in us being love is what we can live by now?
[/B]
Certainly multitudes believe like this, but in terms of works, it is a characterization that is limited in scope. Many work because that is what the spirit in them compels them to do, and their works of faith are simply an outworking of their love for the truth. The book says that as we do works of faith, we assure our hearts that we are of the truth.

But whoever has the world’s material possessions and observes his brother in need and shuts his heart against him, how does the love of God reside in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth and will convince our heart before him, 1 John 3:17-19
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#24
The Christian life is Christ, and only He can live it. That's what scripture is telling us when it tells us to live by faith in Jesus Christ…it is telling us to let Him be who He is, God, in and through we who are not.

Amen..Jesus is the real thing..accept no substitutes!

I like to put it this way. Jesus died "for" us so that He and us could live as one together "in" us and now He lives His life "through" us.

Colossians 3:3 (NASB)

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#25
Certainly multitudes believe like this, but in terms of works, it is a characterization that is limited in scope. Many work because that is what the spirit in them compels them to do, and their works of faith are simply an outworking of their love for the truth. The book says that as we do works of faith, we assure our hearts that we are of the truth.
But whoever has the world’s material possessions and observes his brother in need and shuts his heart against him, how does the love of God reside in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth and will convince our heart before him, 1 John 3:17-19
Aren't those things that everybody should just be doing? Shouldn't everybody just be doing good? Isn't the fact that everybody doesn't just do good, reveal man's problem?

Where does the thinking come from that asks, "now that we are Christians can we stop doing good"?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#26
I agree fully with what you say here Bruce.

I would just like to stress that it is important to know God's ways, rules, likes and dislikes so that we can distinguish whether or not we are walking in the Spirit or walking in the flesh at any given moment. I think it's good to have a clear notion of Christ's identity (ours in Him) and our fleshly nature's identity so that we can nab that thief "the flesh" when he starts to get headstrong. :)
Amen....those are clearly seen in Galatians 5:19-26

There is a difference between the "works" of the flesh ( which is something we "do" ) and the "fruit" of the spirit which is something that comes from the life of Christ in us and it is His fruit bearing in our lives. We can't conjure up love from our own flesh.

 
Feb 7, 2015
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#27
Aren't those things that everybody should just be doing? Shouldn't everybody just be doing good? Isn't the fact that everybody doesn't just do good, reveal man's problem?

Where does the thinking come from that asks, "now that we are Christians can we stop doing good"?
I think one concept might be missing..... that of simply, now, WANTING to do good. And people usually do what they truly want (desire) to do.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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0
#28
FORSAKEN AT 55 MILES PER HOUR (Jeff Turner)
Did Sin Separate Man From God?

“Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate.” -Karl Barth (1886-1968)

Steve and Pam were a happily married couple of more than ten years. After trying unsuccessfully to have children for the first few years of their marriage, their doctor confirmed their heart breaking suspicions that they were unable to do so. And so, after some time had passed, they began looking into the option of adopting. Several months of scouring through material, consulting with other adoptive parents, and talking amongst themselves passed, and they finally came to the conclusion that it was the right thing for them.

They’d decided that they would not adopt a baby, but an older child, out of foster care, and particularly, one who had been the victim of very rough circumstances. They finally decided upon a young man named Adam, who was ten years old, and had formerly lived with his now deceased, drug addicted mother. His father had never been a part of his life, and had left his mother sometime during her pregnancy. Adam grew up in an environment that was rife with instability, violence, and drug and alcohol abuse. Young Adam had also suffered all sorts of abuse at the hands of his mother and her various “house guests”, and had more than a few scars scraped into his vulnerable, young psyche.

Knowing Adam’s history, Steve and Pam, prior to the adoption, acknowledged the fact that there might come a day when Adam exhibited some extreme and rebellious behavior. They went into the adoption knowing the severity of his former living situation, and preemptively discussed the problems and issues that might arise as a result. In fact, they went into it not thinking that he might go through a rebellious phase, but as if it were a given. However, they agreed to love him regardless, accept him as he was, and raise him as their own.

As anticipated, after having reached the hormonal age of thirteen, Adam began to rebel. He frequently indulged in many of the very behaviors that had ended his mother’s life, and could be found hanging out in environments much like the one from which he had been rescued. This is precisely what Steve and Pam had prepared themselves for, and they’d even preemptively planned on how they would bring loving discipline into young Adam’s life in these situations. The last thing that they had wanted to do was to further scar the boy by heaping guilt and shame upon him. However, when push came to shove, and Adam actually began to rebel and misbehave, it was as though the couple had forgotten all about their prior parenting plans.

Steve and Pam called a family meeting and sat Adam down to discuss the situation with him. The boy sat feeling ashamed and expecting the worst. After all, his past experiences of mental and physical abuse had trained him to expect the least and the worst from authority figures. However, such loving, understanding parents as Steve and Pam would certainly not treat him in the harsh and abusive ways with which he had grown accustomed, right? Steve looked down at an already distressed and disheartened Adam, and spoke to him sternly, “You have brought shame and disgrace upon this family and have dishonored my name. As a just and honorable man, I simply cannot continue calling you my son. As of this day, I am stripping my name from you, and am taking away your inheritance. Our family is no longer your family. You see, Adam, I am just too good of a man to be the father of a misbehaving miscreant such as yourself. Our natures are simply no longer compatible.”

“Not only am I stripping you of the privileges of sonship and our family’s name, I also forbid you from ever entering this home again. You are no longer welcome here. As an upright man, I simply cannot care or provide for such a wretch as you.”

Steve continued,
“In addition to this, I hereby strip you of the right to fellowship with either myself, or the woman that you once called mother. You are not our son, and you may not speak to us as though you are. You may refer to me as ‘sir’, and to my wife as ‘ma’am’. For not only has the nature of our relationship changed, the relationship itself will, from this moment forth, cease to be. But regardless of what you choose to call us in your depraved imagination, we’re not listening.”

“We have spoken to the courts, and have had a restraining order placed upon you. At the conclusion of this conversation, you are forbidden to be within one thousand miles of us. If you ever happen to find yourself within sight range of us, it will mean terrible things for you. Our relationship is severed, over, and done with! From this moment forth, we will speak to you no longer. Your days as an orphaned, unloved wretch begin now, as we hereby separate ourselves from you! Do you understand me, ‘orphan’?”

Could you imagine that broken, defeated young man, shuddering and weeping as he listened to all of this? Can you see the anguished and pained look spread across his face? How could this child ever possibly recover from such horrendous treatment by those whom he had once called father and mother? Truth be told, he probably never would. The memories of that moment would haunt his conscious and unconscious mind forever. He’d never feel complete, loved or secure again. Such an event would undoubtedly devastate him, possibly even irrevocably so.

What happened to good old, compassionate Steve and Pam? What happened to those adoptive parents who’d had foresight enough to prepare to deal lovingly with Adam’s rebellion, long before it ever occurred? What happened to their paternal and maternal instincts when faced with that which they had already foreseen? The cold, irrational and schizophrenic behavior which they displayed in that cruelest of moments is enough to sicken even the worst of parents.

Now, if the tale of Steve and Pam sounds slightly fantastical, and a bit too-bad-to be-true, it’s because it is. However, as ridiculous, cruel and irrational as Steve and Pam’s behavior was, many Christians would have us to believe that the eternal Godhead behaved in a very similar way in the wake of Adam’s fall.

There is a widespread, almost ubiquitous idea that has embedded itself into the very fabric of all things Evangelical, and it is the thought that sin brought separation between man and God. We have an image in our minds of God being flabbergasted, and offended beyond words by Adam and Eve’s actions. He had given them one simple prohibition, “don’t eat from that tree”, but for some reason, they couldn’t even obey that one simple command! As a result, God became enraged, and in His righteous fury, banished man from His presence. After all, God is holy, and now, because of his evil actions, man was not. God and man became like oil and water, and just wouldn’t mix.

Right..?
Amen......I loved that....we have constructed our own "god" in our minds that is not in fact the real "God" and our loving Father in Christ.

 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
6,877
1,949
113
Germany
#29
I think this ''set of rules'' thinking has become in because many people got sick of people just being traditional and started this ''fire and brimstone'' preaching and legalism.. and its always the radicals that gets talked about and shown.. it doesnt surprise me that people think that
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#30
But you don't believe that behavior matters in terms of salvation, correct? In other words, we can live like the devil and still be saved. Correct?
This is the kind of silliness that is being perpetuated by people with no understanding of Christianity.

Which of the fruit of the Spirit is "live like the devil"??????
What's silliness? The belief that we can live like the devil, and still be saved? I agree.

Unfortunately, some people do believe that. On this forum. That's why I asked the question, so that others may know the full truth.
 
T

thepsalmist

Guest
#31
Amen....those are clearly seen in Galatians 5:19-26

There is a difference between the "works" of the flesh ( which is something we "do" ) and the "fruit" of the spirit which is something that comes from the life of Christ in us and it is His fruit bearing in our lives. We can't conjure up love from our own flesh.

Galatians 5 is a great place to start ...

I suppose I am truly speaking to those who are lukewarm ... those who nitpick the Bible and STOP at Galatians 5.

I think it's an important and worthy pursuit to define each of those words in depth. Love, peacefulness, faithfulness, self-control, gentleness etc. Because again - we have been brainwashed by the world since birth. The world has defined these words for us...our way of perceiving them must change.

It's important to know what GOD means when He says LOVE.

I am simply exhorting those who do not read the Bible daily to start doing so for we are born and raised in error by the world's way of thinking.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#32
I think this ''set of rules'' thinking has become in because many people got sick of people just being traditional and started this ''fire and brimstone'' preaching and legalism.. and its always the radicals that gets talked about and shown.. it doesnt surprise me that people think that
I would like to respond to this, but I am not really sure just what you are saying. Could you add a few more explanatory sentences to that post while I am off at church?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#33
I think one concept might be missing..... that of simply, now, WANTING to do good. And people usually do what they truly want (desire) to do.
I agree Willie....but where does this "wanting" come from? What is the true source of wanting to do good...is for maintaining righteousness or stem from the life of Christ in us? There is a big difference IMO.

Doing good because of the love of Christ in us and it is a fruit of His life being expressed from us is different from "doing good" in order to receive " eternal salvation" which we can only receive by faith in the grace of Christ alone.

The doing good to others is going to be a blessing to the one receiving the good works..that is for sure...:)...so the "doing of good" within itself is not bad.

It is all in the source of the "doing good". Man looks at the outward appearance - God looks on the heart.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#34
Galatians 5 is a great place to start ...

I suppose I am truly speaking to those who are lukewarm ... those who nitpick the Bible and STOP at Galatians 5.

I think it's an important and worthy pursuit to define each of those words in depth. Love, peacefulness, faithfulness, self-control, gentleness etc. Because again - we have been brainwashed by the world since birth. The world has defined these words for us...our way of perceiving them must change.

It's important to know what GOD means when He says LOVE.

I am simply exhorting those who do not read the Bible daily to start doing so for we are born and raised in error by the world's way of thinking.
I think knowing what LOVE is, is simply looking at the way Jesus lived.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#35
I think one concept might be missing..... that of simply, now, WANTING to do good. And people usually do what they truly want (desire) to do.
Which Paul addresses in Romans 7 and so many completely miss....that it is doing what we don't want to do that is the problem.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#36
I agree Willie....but where does this "wanting" come from? What is the true source of wanting to do good...is for maintaining righteousness or stem from the life of Christ in us? There is a big difference IMO.

Doing good because of the love of Christ in us and it is a fruit of His life being expressed from us is different from "doing good" in order to receive " eternal salvation" which we can only receive by faith in the grace of Christ alone.

The doing good to others is going to be a blessing to the one receiving the good works..that is for sure...:)...so the "doing of good" within itself is not bad.

It is all in the source of the "doing good". Man looks at the outward appearance - God looks on the heart.
True.
And for the life of me, I cannot understand where so many people here, accusing brothers of such debauchery, drunkenness, and whore-mongering get that idea. Those things lost their appeal to me. Do those people, somehow, still long to do them, and therefore assume that we do too?
 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
6,877
1,949
113
Germany
#37
I would like to respond to this, but I am not really sure just what you are saying. Could you add a few more explanatory sentences to that post while I am off at church?
ok. I think that set of rules thinking has become in (as a wide spread belief) because people got sick of the traditional christians (the ones that dont really care and just go to church on christmas and easter but really dont commit themselves to christ in any way) so there came this ''fire and brimstone'' teaching where preachers would force laws and hell down everyones throat with hope people are too scared to do wrong and walk step by step by the book (radical and legalistically) . And I think that this is why people think its all about rules. People dont get shown that its about love ,people mainly get slammed with :You will go to hell, you are a sinner! Repent!!
And rather than doing their own research people rather just accept something to have a excuse to not get into it i the first place.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#38
I think knowing what LOVE is, is simply looking at the way Jesus lived.
Well said Willie...

Jesus is the exact representation of the Father
. Jesus said no one knows my Father.

So, whatever understanding of God we get from the Old Covenant and Old Testament that doesn't line up with Jesus' manifestation of the Father will be inaccurate. It means our perception of God is not accurate.

He is still the same God but our perception of Him and His true nature needs to be filters through Jesus' representation alone.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)

[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed
heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high
,
 
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Feb 7, 2015
22,418
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#39
True.
And for the life of me, I cannot understand where so many people here, accusing brothers of such debauchery, drunkenness, and whore-mongering get that idea. Those things lost their appeal to me. Do those people, somehow, still long to do them, and therefore assume that we do too?
If they look at our lives, they have to admit that they don't see any of that. All they can say is that we see Jesus differently, and maybe don't say as many "Hail Mary" prayers as they do. (metaphorically speaking LOL)
 
M

Miri

Guest
#40
It's an interesting thread.

According to the 2010 figures I looked up 64% of
the U.K. population identified themselves as Christians - as if lol

Im not sure how the American statistics came about but I suspect
that with the UK figures this incorporates all religious people
who call themselves Christians just because they were Christianed at birth,
plus the various catholic people ( including catholic in name only and those
who practice the catholic faith) and a large proportion of people who call themselves
christian just because they identify themselves as living in a Christian country.

If all of the above people were asked a similar question in thr Uk, the vast percentage would
also probably say the bible is a rule book.


Maybe the USA figures are similarly skewed. Maybe if anything they just show that the percentage
referred to are people who are not really Christians. That still leaves 19% who are and that would
still be a far larger proportion than the Uk.