Israel’s Final Restoration

abcdef · Jun 3, 2016

Brother oldhermit,

I guess I should have been clearer, sorry about that.

By His appearing I mean at the 2nd resurrection.

1 Cor 15:23, They that are Christ's at His coming.

1 Cor 15:52, At the last trump.......the dead shall be raised.

John 5:28-29, All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, v 29 and shall come forth

1 Thess 4:13-18, 16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven

Rev 11:19, And there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament

Rev 20:11 from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away

========================================

The passages in Matt 24, Mk 13, Lk 17:22-37, Lk 21:5-38, Are not about the resurrection.

Brother John

oldhermit · Jun 3, 2016

abcdef said:

Okay, since these first two questions relate directly to your last question I will answer the last question to answer the first two. I believe you properly represent the resurrection as the second coming of Jesus. This is very often misapplied to Jesus' statement is Matt 24:36-39 where Jesus speaks of the “coming of the Son of Man,” and the “Son of Man” appearing “in the sky,” and “the Son of Man coming in the clouds.” Your are correct. These have nothing to do with the Lord's final return and the resurrection. This is representing Jesus as coming in judgment upon Israel. This is the reason for the use of all of the judgment figures.

If we are to determine if scripture provides any indicators concerning the past 1900 years to the present or if scripture provides any indication of the time we are in now or of things yet in out future then we are going to have to find scripture that gives us such indicators. I think one will be very hard pressed to do this. In Luke 21:20-22 Jesus says, “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled." What does the “all things which are written” refer to and how are they fulfilled by Jerusalem being surrounded by armies? Everything that follows in Luke 21 is descriptive of “Jerusalem surrounded by armies,” and “her desolation is near.”If that event marked the end of the fulfillment of “all things that were written” then what is written that has not yet been fulfilled? What would this say about any supposed application of any prophetic text to things yet in our future? If these things are fulfilled as the Lord has said then why are some still waiting for them to be fulfilled? HeRoseFromTheDead made a statement once that I thought was rather profound. I hope he does not mind me quoting from him.

"Preterism actually promotes historical understanding against which prophecies can be examined. Futurism promotes fanciful projections of prophecy into the future that can't be examined against anything. One is based on historical witness; the other is based on imagination as if prophecy is self-defining." Originally posted by HeRoseFromTheDead.

The only thing we find mentioned by the NT writers that concern things yet to come is the second coming of the Lord and the resurrection, and of this time Jesus says only the Father knows. The texts you provided depict very well the nature of the Lord's return .
1 Cor 15:23, They that are Christ's at His coming.
1 Cor 15:52, At the last trump.......the dead shall be raised.
John 5:28-29, All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, v 29 and shall come forth
1 Thess 4:13-18, 16, For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven
Another passage you may wish to consider is 2Peter 3:10-13, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." This leads us then to the question, what is the new heavens and the new earth? Jesus' second coming will be the end of the material creation, not the beginning of some supposed return to Jerusalem.

abcdef · Jun 4, 2016

oldhermit said:

Brother oldhermit,

1. I'm not sure what you mean about "all things which are written may be fulfilled".

Are you saying that EVERY O.T. prophecy, ever made, is fulfilled by the time of the destruction of Jerusalem,

Or that every O.T. prophecy ABOUT the destruction of Jerusalem is fulfilled by 70 ad?

Or something else?

What about N.T. prophecy, Is that all fulfilled also?
====================================================

2. The scripture that you spoke of, Matt 24:36 & Mk 13:32,

A. Mk 13:32, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.", (only, Matt 24:36).

You quote this as if it were about the 2nd resurrection, at the appearance of Jesus, (1 Cor 15: 23 "Christs at his coming").

To do this you must it completely out of context.

This is about the destruction of Jerusalem.

Jesus didn't know the time of the destruction because people have free choice to accept Him as their Messiah or not accept Him.

It wasn't the death of Jesus that brought the withdrawing of blessings from God (Father forgive them), it was the rejection by Israel of the Pentecost Gospel that brought about the destruction of Jerusalem.

They had a choice, they could have repented and accepted Him as their Savior, but they didn't.

This is one reason that Jesus didn't know the "day" of the destruction, Israel made the decision.

B. When Jesus was about to be taken up to heaven in Matt 28:18, He says, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth".

Didn't He know the day of the resurrection then?

Didn't He have the power of the resurrection then?

Did He only have "some" power (He didn't know the day of the resurrection) or "all" power (He did know the day of the resurrection)?

This statement was true when Jesus said it, but after His resurrection things changed, He did know the day (all power), and He still does. (He told us about it in Rev.).
================================================

The passage that you quote, 2 Pet 3:10-13, Will you confirm that you believe that this is, for sure, about the resurrection at the appearance of Jesus? (2nd res).

==================================

3. I noticed that you "forgot" to mention Rev 11:19 and Rev 20:11, scriptures I gave for the 2nd res.

Just saying for myself, the way I understand Revelation, it doesn't make any difference if it was written before or after 70 ad.

It shows the dest. of Jeru. at the 6th seal, we agree on that,

It could be prophetic of the dest. in 70 ad, (writing pre-70 ad)

or showing the confirmation of the prophecies of Jesus about the destruction, (writing post 70 ad).

which would endorse the prophecies about the future (2nd res.) that are made in the book of Revelation.

We shall see.
====================================

Brother John

oldhermit · Jun 4, 2016

abcdef said:

The over all focus of the OT was to declare that someone was coming. You will find two basic types of prophesies in the OT, those which dealt with events that would occur within the framework of the OT period such as the destruction of Israel and other nations, the return of Israel from captivity, the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple, and then the later destruction of the temple in the days of Antiochus IV. Then we have those prophecies which relate to things which would occur during the first century. Within the second group we find such things as Messianic prophecies, kingdom prophecies, and judgment prophecies. These are largely last day prophecies. Other than a few verses about the final resurrection we do not find any prophecies that reach beyond the first century. The last chronological event prophesied by the OT prophets was the first century destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus rightly said in Luke 21 that the destruction of Jerusalem would mark the fulfillment of everything that had been written. If you feel there is an OT prophesy that has not yet been fulfilled then I would be happy to examine it with you.

To what NT prophecies are you referring?

This statement by Jesus is recorded by all three gospel writers with Luke's account being the briefest one with the last statement omitted.
Luke 21:22-23
“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Matthew 24:34-36
“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”

Mark 13:30-32
“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”

What Jesus is doing here is emphasizing the certainty of the fact that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed. Her imminent destruction was as certain as the eventual passing away of the heavens and the earth. Jesus then draws contrast of time confirming that heaven and earth would indeed pass away but of THAT day or THAT hour no one but the Father knows. We know this is not related to the time of the destruction of Jerusalem because Jesus had already revealed that time and had given a number of temporal indicators by which his disciples would recognize it when it came. He has already linked her destruction to the limited time of THAT generation. But, the time regarding the passing away of heaven and earth was something that would not be revealed.

I am convinced that here Peter is talking about the end of all time, the destruction of the material universe. He uses the same judgment we see used before in scripture that speak of the destruction of nations - “the day of the Lord.”

2Peter 3:3-13
“Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. ”

In verse 5 Peter silences any notion that he is speaking in symbolism by rehearsing the creation of the heavens and the earth, the later destruction of the earth by flood and then confirming that this present earth (by context the earth that exists after the flood) will one day destroyed by fire (fire is also often used as a judgment figure) because it is again under the judgment of God. Peter then defines the level of destruction that is to measured out. Even the elements of matter will be destroyed at the most basic level, “the elements will be destroyed with intense heat.” The word στοιχεῖα here that is translated as 'elements' is primarily understood as referring to the heavenly bodies but it also defines the elementary principles upon which a thing stands. This seems to paint a rather all-encompassing picture of the scope of destruction where not only the heavenly bodies of the universe will be destroyed but even the most basic principles of the laws of physics that govern the function of the universe will be destroyed. Yes, I think this is speaking of the destruction of all matter.

I think you are absolutely correct on this. I did post my outline of Rev 11 earlier in post #331 so I will not bore you by going through it again.

abcdef · Jun 5, 2016

oldhermit said:

Brother oldhermit,

Sorry this took so long, but there is as you say, a lot of material to study and many points to consider.

I'm still working on several things, but I will have answers for you.

This is what I have for now.
===========================

Matt 24:34-36, Mk 13:30-32, Lk 21:22-23, Only the Father Knows. Resurrection or dest. o Jeru.?

We "generally" agree that these passages are about the dest o Jeru.

1. In Matt 24:36 you want to suddenly switch from talking about the dest. o Jeru. to the resurrection because of v 35, where it says that hvn and earth shall pass away.

But hvn and earth did pass away at the dest o Jeru. (symbolically of course).

We agree that the opening of the 6th seal shows this Rev 6:12-17.

This shows hvn and earth passing away.

Heaven passing away.....heaven departed as a scroll.
I'm sure you are aware of the symbolism used here.

Earth passing away.....there was a great earthquake, every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
The symbolic earthquake, like the real ones, shows a change in the relationship between the heavens and the earth.

The symbolic change in the earth's position in v 12, shows the position of Israel in her relationship with God, changed,
with the idea that it will never be in the same position, in that relationship again.
The old position of the old earth in relation to heaven, has passed away.

You are basing your position of Matt 24:36, The day and hour...my Father only, as being about the resurrection, on v 35.

If this were true, then these verses would be talking about the dest. and not the resur. This may give you a little different viewpoint on these verses.

2. And, would you suddenly switch back to Matt 24:37-41, to be describing the dest. again?

3. Right now, at this moment, does Jesus know the day and the hour of the resurrection?
=============================================

Lk 21:22, "All things which are written"

You want this to say,
All things that are written, except the things which are written about the 2nd resurrection.

But it doesn't say that.

If your going to make a "blanket" statement like that, you can't make exceptions to it when the text doesn't give any.

Either all things that are written are fulfilled, or some things that are written are fulfilled.

All the things written about the dest o Jeru, are fulfilled, but not every prophecy that was ever written in the O.T.,

You can't have it both ways, either all prophecy (including the resur. prophecies) are fulfilled, or they are not.

================================================

I'm working on more answers for you.

It just takes time.

Brother John

oldhermit · Jun 6, 2016

abcdef said:

I understand these symbolisms and you are quite correct in your understanding of how scripture uses these particular symbols. Everything you have said about their use in scripture is true but, I do not think this explains Jesus' use of 'heaven and earth' is the particular text. Just because a thing is used often is scripture as a symbol does not mean that it is symbolic every time it appears. Let's look at verse 32-36

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

Jesus had already prophesied concerning the destruction of the temple and has given indicators of time whereby these disciples would know that these things were about to take place so they could flee the city. In verse 32 Jesus reinforces the recognition of the time for that destruction with the use of the parable of the fig tree. When one considers the fig tree, how does one know that summer is near? When the trees branches become tender and the leaves appear you know summer is near. This is a temporal indicator in the natural world that confirms the nearness of summer. How were the disciples to know the destruction of Jerusalem was near? When they saw the things Jesus had just described take place they were to know with certainty that that time had come. Jesus then gives yet another temporal indicator, “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” This confines the certainty of these things asit related to that specific generation. He then offers an illustration to stress the absolute certainty of his words. “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.” Jesus is not switching focus here from the destruction of Jerusalem to the end of the world. He is merely using the passing away of heaven and earth to illustrate how sure his words were about the things he has just said. If I may, allow me to put this in more modern colloquialism that I think will help.

“This generation will not pass away until everything I have just said has come to pass. Heaven and earth itself will pass away but my words never will. But no one know when that will happen except the Father.”

Jesus is not changing the subject here. He is merely using the passing away of something as seemingly imposing and indomitable as the created universe to illustrate the reliability of whatever Jesus says. “Heaven and earth itself will pass away but my words will not." In other words, how certain were the things he had just said about Jerusalem? They were more sure even than heaven and earth itself. He then continues in verses 37 following to stress the fact that they were to be diligent in their watchfulness so that they would be ready when they saw these things happening to Jerusalem.

Fair enough. Let us then simply confine it to the immediate context which is the destruction of Jerusalem. If this is limited strictly to this context then this means that every prophesy found in the OT that is directed to this destruction of Jerusalem would be fulfilled in the consummation of this event. What this also means is that the OT has nothing to say about the destruction of Jerusalem beyond this event. It would also mean the fulfillment of every OT prophesy that was given concerning Jesus, his mission, his death, burial, and resurrection for these things were inseparably connected. This is Psalms 2.

I suppose I should ask, what particular OT prophesy do you feel has not yet been fulfilled?

mcubed · Jun 7, 2016

[Church is the real Israel and Christian is the real Jew and the son of Abraham.
There is no biblical need to wait for unbelieving Jews to be massively converted to Christianity in the last days, imho.QUOTE][/QUOTE]

So Is Y-shua not a real Jew?The Messiah must be a Jew son of Abraham and I'm sure Y-shua (Jesus) or is all that Messiah stuff not real either? Or does Jesus have to believe in himself and be a christian for the Jew stuff to be true? If the stuff about Jews is false why do you believe Jesus is the Messiah. If one thing in the Bible is wrong why isn't the whole thing wrong?

eternally-gratefull · Jun 7, 2016

mcubed said:

[Church is the real Israel and Christian is the real Jew and the son of Abraham.
There is no biblical need to wait for unbelieving Jews to be massively converted to Christianity in the last days, imho.So Is Y-shua not a real Jew?The Messiah must be a Jew son of Abraham and I'm sure Y-shua (Jesus) or is all that Messiah stuff not real either? Or does Jesus have to believe in himself and be a christian for the Jew stuff to be true? If the stuff about Jews is false why do you believe Jesus is the Messiah. If one thing in the Bible is wrong why isn't the whole thing wrong?

it would not be trustworthy you are right.

God made promises, If God does not keep them, He is not trustworthy either.

NetChaplain · Jun 7, 2016

“For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.” (Jer 33:17, 18).

With the exception of the “Levites not lacking a man,” the mentioning of “burnt offerings” and “doing sacrifices continually” are not as the literal services in the OT but are phraseologies of the OT to maintain the Jewish atmosphere. They represent the literal accomplishments in Christ which will eventually occur within the final descendants (many think all Christians, which it could be) of the nation of Israel. It is not sensible to think these to be literal, seeing they were discontinued for reason of Christ’s Priesthood entering in.

“Three of God's covenants, that of royalty with David and his seed, that of the priesthood with Aaron and his seed, and that of Peculiarity with Abraham and his seed, seemed to be all broken and lost while the captivity lasted; but it is here promised that, notwithstanding that interruption and discontinuance for a time, they shall all three take place again, and the true intents and meaning of them all shall be abundantly answered in the New Testament blessings, typified by those conferred on the Jews after their return out of captivity.

“The covenant of royalty shall be secured and the promises of it shall have their full accomplishment in the kingdom of Christ, the Son of David, v. 17. The throne of Israel was overturned in the captivity; the crown had fallen from their head; there was not a man to sit on the throne of Israel; Jeconiah was written childless.

“After their return the house of David made a figure again; but it in the Messiah that this promise is performed that David shall never want a man to sit on the throne of Israel, and that David shall have always a son to reign upon his throne.

“For as long as the man Christ Jesus sits on the right hand of the throne of God, rules the world, and rules it for the good of the church, to which he is a quickening head, and glorified head over all things, as long as he is King upon the holy hill of Zion, David does not want a successor, nor is the covenant with him broken.” M H

abcdef · Jun 7, 2016

oldhermit said:

Brother oldhermit,

I'm having a little laugh about our discussion on Matt 24:35-36,

I imagine that you have spent a lot of time convincing people that Matt 24, etc., is about the dest. o Jeru. and not about the resurrection.

But here I am trying to convince YOU that vs 35&36, are about the dest. o Jeru. and not about the resurrection!

The role for you is reversed.

I really thought we would agree on this point without much discussion.

Are you saying that Rev 6:12-17, does not show hvn and earth passing away?

It fits in so perfectly to Matt 24:35-36.

You want it to be the land mass earth and the literal hvns. in Matt 24:35, but why is it necessary to be understood that way?

There are 2 possibilities, as far as I can tell,

1. Jesus was saying that he didn't know the "day" of the dest o Jeru.

2. Jesus was saying that he didn't know the day of the resurrection.

Would you agree that both points are eliminated when Jesus says that he has received all power in Matt 28:18?

That is, at that time, before he was taken up, he knew when both events would take place?

He knows right now, the time of the resurrection? (yes/no?)
=======================================

I have 2 scriptures for you,

Gen 1:28, "fill the earth and subdue it".

Gen 9:1, "fill the earth", (NIV)

I don't see these as having been fulfilled by 70 ad.

I believe that these have been fulfilled in our lifetime.

I have some more, but the time lines are different from yours,

Let's only do a couple at a time.
=====================================

Brother John

oldhermit · Jun 7, 2016

abcdef said:

Brother oldhermit,

I'm having a little laugh about our discussion on Matt 24:35-36,

I imagine that you have spent a lot of time convincing people that Matt 24, etc., is about the dest. o Jeru. and not about the resurrection.

But here I am trying to convince YOU that vs 35&36, are about the dest. o Jeru. and not about the resurrection!

The role for you is reversed.

I really thought we would agree on this point without much discussion.

Are you saying that Rev 6:12-17, does not show hvn and earth passing away?

It fits in so perfectly to Matt 24:35-36.

You want it to be the land mass earth and the literal hvns. in Matt 24:35, but why is it necessary to be understood that way?

There are 2 possibilities, as far as I can tell,

1. Jesus was saying that he didn't know the "day" of the dest o Jeru.

2. Jesus was saying that he didn't know the day of the resurrection.

Would you agree that both points are eliminated when Jesus says that he has received all power in Matt 28:18?

That is, at that time, before he was taken up, he knew when both events would take place?

He knows right now, the time of the resurrection? (yes/no?)
=======================================

I have 2 scriptures for you,

Gen 1:28, "fill the earth and subdue it".

Gen 9:1, "fill the earth", (NIV)

I don't see these as having been fulfilled by 70 ad.

I believe that these have been fulfilled in our lifetime.

I have some more, but the time lines are different from yours,

Let's only do a couple at a time.
=====================================

Brother John

LOL. Well, let me try this one more time and if you still do not see it then perhaps we can move on to something else.

Jesus knew the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and he provided a number of temporal indicators to prove it. If his statement regarding heaven and earth passing away is a metaphor for the destruction of Jerusalem then why does he not know when this would occur? Why does the Father reserve this knowledge unto himself?

abcdef · Jun 8, 2016

oldhermit said:

Brother oldhermit,

Jesus didn't know the DAY and the HOUR of the dest o Jeru., but he knew that certain events had to take place.

1. (Possible) Jesus didn't know because the gospel, (death, burial, and resurrection), was a mystery,

1 Cor 2:7, ......"which God ordained before the world unto our glory: V 8, Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.".....,

Rom 16:25, ....."according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, V 26, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets,".....

What did Jesus know, and what didn't Jesus know, there's a good thread topic!

2. There was a factor involved that could alter the time frame. the DAY & HOUR

The factor of the free will of Israel to choose or reject the Pentecost gospel.

This is a deep subject, free will and the prophecies of God,

Jesus made His prophecies, but what about the mercy of God?

How long would God's mercy continue on natural branches of Israel after the rejection of the Pentecost gospel? 2-3-4 yrs, 35 yrs?

Jesus said that he didn't know the Day and the Hour, that could change.

Depending on the mercy of God, things could change the time frame.

I suppose that the same thing might be said about the resurrection also.

But what event would cause God's mercy to run out and destroy this planet with fire?
=======================================

Again,.......... Right now, at this moment, does Jesus know the day and the hour of the resurrection?

According to you the Father knows.

Does Jesus know?

Is there a reason that you care not to answer, or perhaps I missed your answer in a previous post?

Brother John
==================================================

DP · Jun 8, 2016

NetChaplain said:

God said He made Jeremiah a prophets to the nations, to tear down, but also to plant, and build up.

That prophecy of the tearing down was about the destruction of Jerusalem and the king line of Judah with king Zedekiah and his sons by the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar.

So where's the planting and building up part of the prophecy that Jeremiah was to do?

Genesis 49:10 reveals that there would never fail one of Judah to sit upon Israel's throne (sceptre) until Christ's ("Shiloh") coming, and then to Him would be the gathering of the people.

Must be many Jews here, otherwise this should have been understood with God showing us how the kingdom of Israel has not ended with Zedekiah's death back in Jeremiah's day.

oldhermit · Jun 8, 2016

abcdef said:

Well, I don't really know just what to say. Almost every person or class I have ever explained this to saw it immediately. The fact that Jesus is presenting a contrast and that he speaks of the passing away of heaven and earth as an point of illustration is beyond question. I guess we only see things when we are ready to see them. Do you believe that the heavens and the earth will be one day literally be destroyed?

The fact that the gospel was a mystery had nothing to do with why Jesus did not know certain things. This is a point of triadic function that perhaps we can discuss at another time. The gospel was a mystery to the people, not to him. He is the author of the gospel. Jesus knew precisely when he would be crucified, and he knew precisely how long he would be in the hands of men, and when he would arise.

Material factors NEVER have power to subordinate the will of God in anything. The will of God is NEVER contingent on human or material factors. Everything would unfold precisely as God had intended. He knew precisely what would happen, when it would happen, and how it would be effected. There are no surprises with God. You must understand that God does not respond to time, circumstances, or conditions. Time, circumstances, and conditions respond to the will of God. Whether or not the Jews would reject Jesus was an unalterable condition that was already determined. The mercy of God was indeed extended to the Jew who did accept Jesus but this did not affect the judgment of God against Jerusalem. This is John1. Jesus is not taking about the mercy of God regarding Jerusalem, he is talking about judgment that is determined and unalterable and whose time was fixed. You have to remember that this same Jesus is the Jehovah who spoke through the prophets regarding these things. He had determined these things even before time began.

abcdef · Jun 8, 2016

oldhermit said:

Brother oldhermit,

I don't believe in pre-destination.

I believe in free will.

I believe in the power of prayer.

I believe that miracles still happen.

I believe that God can alter time and events as He chooses and still maintain the prophetic truths that He has made.

Yes, a topic for another day.
==================================

I believe that this planet will be destroyed by the "stone" of Dan 2:34.

You see this as Pentecost,

I see it as the end of this planet.
================================
All material things don't end, they "fly" away from His face Rev 20:11.

They fly away into the "deep", Gen 1:2. (the void of what we call outer space, eternity in all directions).
========================

But what events would cause God to destroy this planet? (restored Israel is destroyed)

=================================

The 7 th trumpet of Rev 11:15 is the resurrection and the end of this planet,

not a picture of the dest. o Jeru.

============================

Brother John

oldhermit · Jun 8, 2016

abcdef said:

Yes, I believe in free will but I also recognize the absolutes of prophesy. The fulfillment of prophesy is never contingent on any material factors. The only factor in the fulfillment of prophesy is the will and power of God. It is not a question of events that will eventuate the destruction of the material universe. These things will be done because God has decreed them to be so, Heb. 1; 2Peter 3. Yell, I have enjoyed our discussion. Perhaps we can do this again sometime.

abcdef · Jun 8, 2016

oldhermit said:

Yes, I believe in free will but I also recognize the absolutes of prophesy. The fulfillment of prophesy is never contingent on any material factors. The only factor in the fulfillment of prophesy is the will and power of God. It is not a question of events that will eventuate the destruction of the material universe. These things will be done because God has decreed them to be so, Heb. 1; 2Peter 3. Yell, I have enjoyed our discussion. Perhaps we can do this again sometime.

Brother oldhermit,

Have a great and blessed day.

Brother John

abcdef · Jun 8, 2016

Brothers and Sisters,

There is one fact that cannot be denied,

There is a nation, Israel, that is in the same exact location of the old Israel.

Israel controls Jerusalem. (I know this is in question for some, but not for me)

==========================================

Has Jesus left us blind to the resurrection?

Do we have no clues as to when the "rapture" will take place?

Even if you are pre-trib, don't you say that no one knows when the "rapture" will take place?

====================================

I don't believe that Jesus left us clueless to His coming.

The restoration of Israel is undeniable.

If you want to say that the people there aren't the Israel of the natural branches, that's up to you,

I can't prove it.

But they do have faith,

Yes, they must become "Christians".

There is one God, They worship Him also.
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This event of the restoration of Israel, Must be taken into account in the prophetic timeline.

I believe that this event is seen in Revelation, the 2 witnesses Rev 11:1-13, 7-8.

And Rev 20:9, where Jerusalem is surrounded, just before the fire from heaven, the stone of Dan 2:34.

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Could I be wrong?

YES! YES! YES!!, I can hear you!!!

Ha Ha
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The reality is that Iran and it's allies hate Israel, with the passion of a people who are possessed with the spirit of Satan, the same spirit as Hitler was.

I live with the fear every day that this Satanic evil is going to begin to move against Jerusalem.

This is the reality that we are facing.

May God have mercy on all of us.
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I believe that Jesus told us what was going to happen just before He comes.

The restoration of Israel is one event that cannot be denied.

I don't believe that our Master has left us blind to what's coming.

Time will tell,

Just how much "time", do you think we have?............

Will the next President turn against Israel?

Will there be a war that the free nations lose?

Things can change so fast.

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The salvation of the human souls, the gospel, Jesus, is our only hope.

There is no hope for this material world.

I know that this is hard to hear.

But it will be harder if you don't hear it now, if you don't understand what is happening.

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I've said enough for now.

DP · Jun 9, 2016

The Biblical restoration of Israel is about the gathering of the ten lost tribes of Israel called the "house of Israel" (after the split of 1 Kings 11) and the other part of Israel called the "house of Judah" which was only three tribes, known as Jews today.

Both groups are to be gathered per Ezekiel 37 back to the holy lands God promised their fathers. That has not yet happened, and will only happen when Jesus returns. The only ones returning to the state of Israel in the middle east today are Jews of the "house of Judah".

When God brought the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, upon Jerusalem/Judea during Jeremiah's day, that ended the king line of David in Jerusalem. Zedekiah king of Judah was the last king of Judah upon a throne in Jerusalem. Yet God promised David there never fail a man of Israel upon his throne (2 Samuel 7). Genesis 49:10, which is a prophecy for the latter days, also points out this prophecy of one upon the royal sceptre all the way up to the second coming of Christ Jesus.

What that means is, there is to be one of Judah still sitting upon David's throne on earth today, (also since that is the throne Jesus is coming to inherit per God's Word.) God scattered the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" among the Gentiles, as Ephraim, its head tribe, was to become a "multitude of nations" per the Genesis 48 prophecy, and there God would move the throne of David through Zedekiah's daughters (the "king's daughters" of the latter parts of the Book of Jeremiah).

In the Annals of Ireland, which dates as a copy at least to the 16th century, and goes back in Ireland's history to the time of Noah's flood, declares one named Scota who was Pharaoh's daughter that was linked to one of the royal lineage of the Milesians that came from ancient Spain to Ireland. The hill Tara (Teamhair) is mentioned also which is where the ancient Irish kings were coronated either sitting or standing next to the Lia Fial stone. This stone later became the stone upon which the kings of Scotland were coronated upon, and also later the kings and queens of England, the last one being Queen Elizabeth II in 1953.

After the passion of Christ, The Gospel having been rejected by the majority in Jerusalem, The Gospel then went to the Gentiles in Asia Minor and Europe, which just so happens to be where the majority of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) were scattered to. This is why the ancient Scots in their Declaration of Arbroath would point to a heritage from Israel having mirgrated to Ireland and Scotland from ancient Spain and Greece.

God scattered the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" because of their Baal worship against Him, but then used that to bring The Gospel also to the Gentiles which the ten tribes were scattered among. This is why Britain would become the first on a national scale to believe The Gospel, even while Rome was still pagan. The other nations in Europe then followed suit, putting their pagan idols away and taking up The Gospel of Jesus Christ and becoming the sons of God, showing that God kept His promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David.

tooldtocare · Jun 16, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

First define "repent". The Lord asked then to do the following:

(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Jer 14:8 KJV) O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?

(Ezek 14:7 KJV) For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

(Ezek 22:7 KJV) In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.

(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, thestranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

(Num 35:15 KJV) These six cities shall be a refuge, both for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither.

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:18 KJV) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

If they would just followed The Lord's first requests noted above they surely would be forgiven for all their past transgressions

Spitting on Christians is not what the Lord was hopping to see

If they changed their ways and loved the stranger as they love themselves I would call this "repenting"

Do you agree-?

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Israel’s Final Restoration

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