Dispensationalism

[BibleGuy]

Understood. I'm not unfamiliar with the theory.

But the sacrifices God requires in the New Covenant are sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving from His Living Body, not dead animals on an altar. Also, the commemoration of the Sacrifice of Christ was given by Christ Himself - at the Last Supper. We commemorate - remember - His Work in the bread and the wine, not by offering sacrifices at an altar.

And since Christ's Priesthood is in eternal effect by an oath from God, the Old Covenant Priesthood is not coming back to officiate over sacrifices offered on an altar in a rebuilt temple. If man decides to do it anyway, it will not be sanctioned by God and will be an abomination and insult to the Work and High Priesthood of Christ, putting Him to shame.

No, any animal sacrifices are out, in light of the High Priesthood of Christ, Who is the ONLY Priest/Priesthood recognized by God in the New Covenant and Who is not legally able to oversee animal sacrifices required by the Law. Again, the Old Covenant is NOT coming back - Christ's Priesthood is PERMANENT by a OATH from God.

Couple that with NO animal sacrificial system in the New Covenant and you can see where I don't see how the Dispensational model is workable when considering the Permanent, Perfect High Priesthood of Christ (not to mention His once-for-all, for-all-time sacrifice).

The letter to the Hebrews is extremely clear on these points .

-JGIG

Hello JGIG,

You wrote: "Again, the Old Covenant is NOT coming back."

My response: You've never proven that the Old Covenant ever left!

Remember, Moses PROPHESIED that we would not obey 100% of Torah again until AFTER we return to the land (Dt. 30:1-8).

This prophecy is still unfulfilled.

It immediately disconfirms your viewpoint.

The return to the land (as promised to the fathers, cf. Dt. 6:10) will be fulfilled in conjunction with obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).

And Jesus APPLIES Dt. 6 to you (Mt. 22:37).

So, it is QUITE puzzling to see you oppose these Scriptures.

best...
BibleGuy

 

[JGIG]

I have been sharing what Jesus Christ has taught me about him for almost forty years. There is no place where anyone has accepted what has been shared by me.

Jesus has given me a job to tell just about everyone that they are wrong about their Christian beliefs.

No kidding. So "just about everyone" is wrong about their Christian beliefs but YOU?

For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. (from Rom. 12)​

The Holy Spirit once told me to tell people that no matter who tells them anything about God, be it a priest, bishop, or anyone they were to ask Jesus if it was right or wrong. I thought what a great idea. But the problem as I found out is, almost no one has the sort of relationship with Jesus Christ where they can ask him a question and receive an answer.

Yeah, that's an exhortation given to all of us who believe in Christ, Johnlove, not an exhortation given to just you to tell people :

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (from 1 Thes. 5)

​

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (from 1 Jn. 4)​

So far Jesus has had me only share to those who say they are Christian. It will not be long before he has me do much more.

I hope not! Your profile says you're 81 - better get to it!

-JGIG

 

[Bookends]

why not?

Does it matter "why" they do it? or "that" they do it.

They are still literally doing sacrifice, so it would still be a literal interpretation.

The passage says it's a sacrifice for sins, does it not? if yes, then to interpret it as "commemorative" would not taking the passage literally.

 

[JGIG]

Hello JGIG,

You wrote: "Again, the Old Covenant is NOT coming back."

My response: You've never proven that the Old Covenant ever left!

Remember, Moses PROPHESIED that we would not obey 100% of Torah again until AFTER we return to the land (Dt. 30:1-8).

This prophecy is still unfulfilled.

It immediately disconfirms your viewpoint.

The return to the land (as promised to the fathers, cf. Dt. 6:10) will be fulfilled in conjunction with obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).

Well since the Old Covenant isn't coming back and will never have a high priesthood in light of Christ's Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, that's not going to happen.

Let's look at your Deuteronomy 6 passage, shall we?

10 When the Lord your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.


​

That first part is pointing to Grace - New Life apart from your own labor - rest in Christ. It's a type/shadow of the Reality we have in Christ in the New Covenant. The New Life we have in Christ is because of forgiveness we don't deserve and righteousness we didn't earn. Simply by entering in by faith we have New Life in Christ.

13 Fear the Lord your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. 14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; 15 for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. 16 Do not put the Lord your God to the test as you did at Massah. 17 Be sure to keep the commands of the Lord your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. 18 Do what is right and good in the Lord’s sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land the Lord promised on oath to your ancestors, 19 thrusting out all your enemies before you, as the Lord said.

20 In the future, when your son asks you,“What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the Lord our God has commanded you?” 21 tell him: “We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. 22 Before our eyes the Lord sent signs and wonders—great and terrible—on Egypt and Pharaoh and his whole household. 23 But he brought us out from there to bring us in and give us the land he promised on oath to our ancestors.

24 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive,as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.”

​

Now compare that to what actually happens to those under the Law - Law actually stirs up sinning, so it can never be our righteousness. Note that in the Old Covenant righteousness was dependent on obedience to the Law - it's earned; in the New Covenant, righteousness is dependent on belief in Christ and is a gift.

The Law was given to prove to man what God already knew: man cannot ever be righteous enough by not sinning. In fact, after the Cross, God clarifies this for us:

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (from Rom. 3)


​

And Jesus APPLIES Dt. 6 to you (Mt. 22:37).

​

Jesus applies the comand for us to Love in Matthew 22, not the Law given at Sinai.

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (from Mt. 22)
​

​

And after the Cross, John defines just what the commandments of God are:

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)​

​

So, it is QUITE puzzling to see you oppose these Scriptures.

best...
BibleGuy

I'm opposing nothing. Simply rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

By the way a cult leader has people follow him or her because they tell their followers what they want to hear. Most all pastors of a church understand that very well. No church keeps people by telling then the truth.


(1 Corinthians 12:27-30) “Now you together are Christ’s body; but each of you is a different part of it. In the Church, God has given the first place to apostles, the second to prophets, the third to teachers; after them, miracles, and after them the gift of healing; helpers, good leaders, those with many languages. Are all of them apostles, or all of them prophets, or all of them teachers? Do all speak strange languages, and all interpret them?”

So you fancy yourself a prophet, eh?

And you're wrong - cult leaders teach a bunch of what's true and mixing in error in key areas, stating that until they came along, the Body has gotten those parts wrong.

Sound familiar?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Yes, but many cult leaders get their start by having a dream/vision showing how the Church has been wrong since the Apostles.

Yep.

Personally I believe what man thinks about God’s relationship with anyone but me is God’s business.

Jesus once told me, and he did this audibly, to stop trying to figure him out and just follow him. Jesus was telling me to just do as he tells me, and that is all.

People say but God gave us a mind to use. I say yes God gave us a mind, and his people are to use his or her mind to do as Jesus Christ our Lord God tells them to do.

Those who follow Jesus Christ are servants of God and do as they are told.

Hmmmm . . . that's not subjective, right?

-JGIG

 

[Dan_473]

No kidding. So "just about everyone" is wrong about their Christian beliefs but YOU?

For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. (from Rom. 12)​

Yeah, that's an exhortation given to all of us who believe in Christ, Johnlove, not an exhortation given to just you to tell people :

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (from 1 Thes. 5)

​

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (from 1 Jn. 4)​

I hope not! Your profile says you're 81 - better get to it!

-JGIG

' For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. (from Rom. 12)'

I like that... thanks for the reminder

 

[Dan_473]

Well since the Old Covenant isn't coming back and will never have a high priesthood in light of Christ's Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, that's not going to happen.

Let's look at your Deuteronomy 6 passage, shall we?

10 When the Lord your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.


​

That first part is pointing to Grace - New Life apart from your own labor - rest in Christ. It's a type/shadow of the Reality we have in Christ in the New Covenant. The New Life we have in Christ is because of forgiveness we don't deserve and righteousness we didn't earn. Simply by entering in by faith we have New Life in Christ.

13 Fear the Lord your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. 14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; 15 for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. 16 Do not put the Lord your God to the test as you did at Massah. 17 Be sure to keep the commands of the Lord your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. 18 Do what is right and good in the Lord’s sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land the Lord promised on oath to your ancestors, 19 thrusting out all your enemies before you, as the Lord said.

20 In the future, when your son asks you,“What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the Lord our God has commanded you?” 21 tell him: “We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. 22 Before our eyes the Lord sent signs and wonders—great and terrible—on Egypt and Pharaoh and his whole household. 23 But he brought us out from there to bring us in and give us the land he promised on oath to our ancestors.

24 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive,as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.”

​

Now compare that to what actually happens to those under the Law - Law actually stirs up sinning, so it can never be our righteousness. Note that in the Old Covenant righteousness was dependent on obedience to the Law - it's earned; in the New Covenant, righteousness is dependent on belief in Christ and is a gift.

The Law was given to prove to man what God already knew: man cannot ever be righteous enough by not sinning. In fact, after the Cross, God clarifies this for us:

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (from Rom. 3)


​

​

Jesus applies the comand for us to Love in Matthew 22, not the Law given at Sinai.

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (from Mt. 22)
​

​

And after the Cross, John defines just what the commandments of God are:

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)​

​

I'm opposing nothing. Simply rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

-JGIG

'23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another,'

thanks again

I forgot about that verse

 

[BibleGuy]

Well since the Old Covenant isn't coming back and will never have a high priesthood in light of Christ's Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, that's not going to happen.

Let's look at your Deuteronomy 6 passage, shall we?

10 When the Lord your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.


​

That first part is pointing to Grace - New Life apart from your own labor - rest in Christ. It's a type/shadow of the Reality we have in Christ in the New Covenant. The New Life we have in Christ is because of forgiveness we don't deserve and righteousness we didn't earn. Simply by entering in by faith we have New Life in Christ.

13 Fear the Lord your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. 14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; 15 for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. 16 Do not put the Lord your God to the test as you did at Massah. 17 Be sure to keep the commands of the Lord your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. 18 Do what is right and good in the Lord’s sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land the Lord promised on oath to your ancestors, 19 thrusting out all your enemies before you, as the Lord said.

20 In the future, when your son asks you,“What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the Lord our God has commanded you?” 21 tell him: “We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. 22 Before our eyes the Lord sent signs and wonders—great and terrible—on Egypt and Pharaoh and his whole household. 23 But he brought us out from there to bring us in and give us the land he promised on oath to our ancestors.

24 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive,as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.”

​

Now compare that to what actually happens to those under the Law - Law actually stirs up sinning, so it can never be our righteousness. Note that in the Old Covenant righteousness was dependent on obedience to the Law - it's earned; in the New Covenant, righteousness is dependent on belief in Christ and is a gift.

The Law was given to prove to man what God already knew: man cannot ever be righteous enough by not sinning. In fact, after the Cross, God clarifies this for us:

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (from Rom. 3)


​

​

Jesus applies the comand for us to Love in Matthew 22, not the Law given at Sinai.

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (from Mt. 22)
​

​

And after the Cross, John defines just what the commandments of God are:

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)
​

​

I'm opposing nothing. Simply rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

-JGIG

Hello JGIG,

1. You wrote: "Well since the Old Covenant isn't coming back and will never have a high priesthood in light of Christ's Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, that's not going to happen."

My response: You ignored Dt. 30:1-8 which immediately disconfirms your position.

Is that how you reason? You ignore Scriptures which disconfirm your position?

Dt. 30:1-8 is NOT yet fulfilled. It PROMISES 100% future full Torah-obedience.

Why have you neglected to defend your position against Dt. 30:1-8?

You need to DEFEND your position (or else revise it), but you must not ignore Scripture...right?


2. You missed the point regarding the land-promise given to Israel through Abraham. Again, this promise is to be fulfilled (Dt. 6:10) in conjunction with obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25), so that even if we disobey and are scattered to the ends of the earth, we will nevertheless return to YHVH and again obey 100% of Torah in the promised land (Dt. 30:1-8).

The point: Fulfillment of the land-promise to Israel through Abraham occurs IN CONJUNCTION WITH obedience to 100% of Torah. This is NOT yet fulfilled. Your position is disconfirmed.


3. Yes, Jesus is "YHVH our Righteousness" (Jer. 23:6), even when He comes to bring us back to live in the land of Israel (Jer. 23:8). But this occurs in conjunction with 100% obedience to Torah (Dt. 30:1-8) as Jesus rules with justice (Heb. "mishpat", Jer. 23:5). And where is each "mishpat" of YHVH found? The written Torah of Moses (see "mishpat" in 1 Ki. 2:3) in which Jesus will be ruling!

And again, Jesus will be ruling in righteousness (Heb. "tsedekah", Jer. 23:5). And what are these ways of "tsedekah"? TORAH! (see "tsedekah" in Dt. 6:25).

Again, your position forces you to redefine "mishpat" and "tsedekah" in Jer. 23:5 to mean something CONTRARY to Jeremiah's Torah-obedient usage of the terms.

Your position is again disconfirmed.


4. You wrote: "Simply by entering in by faith we have New Life in Christ."

My response: Sure...we are saved by grace through faith (not by mere faithless works of the law).

But there's more!

Jesus requires that we exemplify Torah-obedient righteousness (Mt. 5:20).

Righteousness is something we DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 2:29) as evidence of having been born of Him.

AND, if you do not DO righteousness, THEN YOU ARE NOT OF GOD! (1 Jn. 3:10).

Are you of God? If so, then you DO righteousness! (1 Jn. 3:10)

And, faith (Gr. "pistis", Gal. 3:11) = faithfulness (Heb. "emunah", Hab. 2:4, which Paul quoted at Gal. 3:11).

And what is this way of "emunah" by which Paul said we live? Torah! (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138)

Thus Paul has us admonishing one another with the Psalms (Col. 3:16). Thus, I admonish you to obey the Torah of the Psalms, just as Paul requires that I admonish you.

So we who are of faith OBEY Torah.

Let's stop pretending that righteousness is NOT something we do.

Sure, righteousness is something we receive by faith...but it's ALSO something we do. We must account for BOTH facets to the Scriptural revelation regarding righteousness.

Remember Abraham? He was righteous by faith, but he ALSO obeyed Torah available to him (Ge. 26:5), and he commanded his family to do likewise (Ge. 18:19).

In fact, God blessed Abraham BECAUSE (Ge. 26:5) he obeyed the Torah available to him.

We should do likewise...being righteous by faith, AND also obeying the Torah of the covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, Levitical, Davidic, New) in which we participate.

Why would you oppose Torah, when it is transferred directly into the New Covenant? (see "Torah", Jer. 31:33).

Why oppose Torah, when it is GUARANTEED to be restored, in accordance with the Prophets, and in greater forthcoming fulfillment of the Torah-laden covenants in which we participate?

Yikes!

Defend your position, or change it.


5. You wrote: "Law actually stirs up sinning, so it can never be our righteousness."

My response: Sure, law without faith results in sin...so law without faith does NOT result in righteousness.

But there's more!

Jesus plainly said that we should exemplify works of Torah-obedient righteousness (Mt. 5:20).

Zacharias and Elizabeth were righteous and blameless in their Torah-obedience (Lk. 1:6).

Again, Jesus said we live by Torah (Mt. 4:4; citing Dt. 8:3, referencing Torah). He never said it was impossible!

Again, we obey Torah and we LIVE (see "live" in Dt. 30), and guess what? Paul cites Dt. 30 FAVORABLY, applying it to YOU in Rom. 10:8. Yes! Faithful Torah-obedience IS the word of faith which Paul preached (hence his favorable citation of Dt. 30:14 at Rom. 10:8).

Again, Moses said Torah-obedience is NOT too difficult (Dt. 30:11), thereby confirming that we CAN walk in Torah-obedient righteousness per Dt. 6:25.

Did Jesus say: "Hey guys....read Dt. 6:4-5 BUT IGNORE THE CONTEXT!"

Of course not! Therefore, you can't cut Dt. 6:4-5 out of the Torah and impose a foreign meaning upon it simply to accommodate your anti-Torah theology.

Jesus APPLIED Dt. 6 to YOU (Mt. 22:37), context and all.

In fact, Jesus said Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28), again disconfirming your position.

Of course we are not righteous by FAITHLESS works of the law. But we are COMMANDED to exemplify FAITHFUL works of the law. STOP confusing these two!

We all know Paul opposes FAITHLESS Torah-obedience (Gal. 5:4-5). Moving on now....

Let's stop ignoring the Pauline passages which confirm that Paul taught FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.

Paul said those who obey the law will be justified (Rom. 2:13), AND Paul has Gentile believers OBEYING TORAH (Rom. 2:26) as a pointed rebuke against circumcised people who fail to obey it properly.

And what is "sin"? TORAH-DISOBEDIENCE (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).

Paul taught we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15), which means we should NOT disobey Torah, which means we should OBEY TORAH!

So why oppose the Torah which Paul taught us to obey (through his command to "not sin")?

Wow....you've got LOTS of explainin' to do!


6. You cite 1 Jn. 3:23-24, claiming: "And after the Cross, John defines just what the commandments of God are."

My response: Nice try...now read again. We should love one another AS HE COMMANDED US (1 Jn. 3:23).

Therefore, Mt. 28:20 is STILL IN FORCE!

Mt. 28:20 applies all of Jesus' Torah-obedient PRE-CROSS teachings to disciples of all nations.

So, if we truly love one another as Jesus requires, then we make disciples of all nations in obedience to ALL that Jesus commanded.

AND, what do true disciples of Jesus do? CONTINUE IN JESUS' WORDS (Jn. 8:31) so that we may never see death (Jn. 8:51).

AND, what are Jesus' words?

That our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching DETERMINES our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

That Jesus AUTHORIZES Torah-teachers (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His Torah-obedient (Mt. 23:23) Torah-teaching (Mk. 7:8-9) ministry.

That Jesus sends away religious people who are anti-Torah (exemplifying "anomia", lawlessness, Mt. 7:21-23).

That Jesus warns that those who cause Torah-disobedience ("anomia") may suffer a fiery fate (Mt. 13:41-42).

We disciples should thus IMITATE this walk of Torah-obedience (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn. 2:6), NOT OPPOSE IT!

Again, your position is disconfirmed by a WIDE range of Scriptural considerations (most of which I've scarcely begun to share with you).

But I'm now concerned my message is "too long" in your opinion....and you'll be too busy...and you'll not fully engage.....just like before.

Remember the 39 issues you have not yet answered? -----> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/136719-house-cornelius-law-29.html#post2660313

Sigh....

Just trying to help you...and the readers too!


CONCLUSION: Will you now defend your position against the Scriptural objections I've raised?

Trust me...I'll be your GREATEST fan if you show me how your position is better than mine....

I'm simply seeking truth wherever I can find it...I'm NOT afraid to change my position, following the truth wherever it leads...and I wasn't raised in this position....I was FORCED (by the evidence) to move to the position I now embrace....this requires a measure of humility that many are afraid to exemplify....are you willing to engage?

And if you can't, then why would you persist in setting forth a position that neither you (nor anyone else you know) can defend?

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[crossnote]

Then you can't take the passages in a wooden literal fashion, as many dispensationalist claim they do all the time (I'm not saying you do, just what I hear from dispensationalist generally).

But there is too much to allegorize in that Ezek passage. Most OT prophecies have had a literal fulfillment so there is no reason to start spiritualizing them without good warrant.

 

[crossnote]

Be careful these two core beliefs affect so much of scripture. Many other beliefs need to be changed to fit this belief and this is a man made theory?
Firstly the scripture is deep and to confine it to a literal approach only is taking away it's meaning and depth in so many ways. Their are literal scriptures but some have meaning for the time written, for Christs coming and for the end times all in the same scriptures/story, don't limit the meaning and depth of the scriptures. Not everything in revelation is literal.

Secondly the church and Israel
By faith we can be part of the same family.
Dispensationalists say that the church was started on the day of Pentecost. But the Bible says that ISRAEL WAS THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS. In speaking of Moses, Stephen said this in Acts 8:37--
This is he, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.
Israel is the Root of the New Testament Church
The scriptures clearly teach that the church did not start on the day of Pentecost. It already existed. In Abraham, God called out a people and a church for his name. Israel is the root of the New Testament Church. The mystery hidden from the foundation of the world was that the Gentile should be graffed into that root. The Gentiles are not a separate tree.
Those Jews who abide in unbelief are broken off from their own tree through their unbelief. There is not special provision for them in the "tribulation period" (incidentally, the Bible does not teach that Christians will escape the great tribulation. It teaches the opposite and says for us to pray that our flight not be in the winter or on the sabbath day). All they have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and they will be immediately graffed back into their own tree. In speaking of Israel, Paul says this is Romans 11--
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, AND WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. [We are all in ONE tree.]
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature INTO a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? [There is only ONE tree. We get in by faith in the blood of Jesus.]
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be COME IN.
This is a plain, untwisted reading of the holy scriptures.

I don't read long posts usually. I'll take one of your first points. You claim Acts7 to prove there was a Church in the wilderness.
That would be like me claiming that the disorderly gathering in Acts 19:40 was a church (ekklesia)...

For indeed we are in danger of being accused of a riot in connection with today’s events, since there is no real cause for it, and in this connection we will be unable to account for this disorderly gathering.” NAS

BGT Acts 19:40 καὶ γὰρ κινδυνεύομεν ἐγκαλεῖσθαι στάσεως περὶ τῆς σήμερον, μηδενὸς αἰτίου ὑπάρχοντος περὶ οὗ [οὐ] δυνησόμεθα ἀποδοῦναι λόγον περὶ τῆς συστροφῆς ταύτης. καὶ ταῦτα εἰπὼν ἀπέλυσεν τὴν ἐκκλησίαν.

 

[crossnote]

Scholars and ministers spread dispensationalism across America in the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century. John Nelson Darby, “the father of dispensationalism,” was a founder of the Plymouth Brethren movement. His most influential contribution was his promotion of dispensationalism and the secret rapture.
Darby, born in London, made seven trips to North America between 1862 and 1877, throughout and after the Civil War. Many saw his message of Christ’s return as hope in a dark world. James Inglis published Darby’s ideas in his journal Waymarks in the Wilderness. Brothers Paul and Timothy Loizeaux, part of the Plymouth Brethren movement in the United States, also helped to distribute Darby’s interpretations of Scripture.
Darby greatly influenced a Presbyterian minister named Dr. James H. Brookes, who developed the Niagara Bible Conference that met every summer from 1875 to 1897. The Bible studies held there were devoured by many eager young students—one of which was Cyrus Ingerson Scofield. Even to this day, Scofield is famous for his Scofield Reference Bible, which has dispensationalist footnotes.

I could write more but you get the point and there is nothing here to prove it is wrong but I just want you to see it’s origins and how it grew. If it is truth than praise God for these men and it’s growth but if it’s error than it needs to be exposed.
"Truth mixed with error is equivalent to all error, except that it is more innocent looking and, therefore, more dangerous."

Sticking needles in strawmen is no way to discuss doctrine. The issue is, is the doctrine/interpretation in question true to Scripture?

 

[crossnote]

Understood. I'm not unfamiliar with the theory.

But the sacrifices God requires in the New Covenant are sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving from His Living Body, not dead animals on an altar. Also, the commemoration of the Sacrifice of Christ was given by Christ Himself - at the Last Supper. We commemorate - remember - His Work in the bread and the wine, not by offering sacrifices at an altar.

And since Christ's Priesthood is in eternal effect by an oath from God, the Old Covenant Priesthood is not coming back to officiate over sacrifices offered on an altar in a rebuilt temple. If man decides to do it anyway, it will not be sanctioned by God and will be an abomination and insult to the Work and High Priesthood of Christ, putting Him to shame.

No, any animal sacrifices are out, in light of the High Priesthood of Christ, Who is the ONLY Priest/Priesthood recognized by God in the New Covenant and Who is not legally able to oversee animal sacrifices required by the Law. Again, the Old Covenant is NOT coming back - Christ's Priesthood is PERMANENT by a OATH from God.

Couple that with NO animal sacrificial system in the New Covenant and you can see where I don't see how the Dispensational model is workable when considering the Permanent, Perfect High Priesthood of Christ (not to mention His once-for-all, for-all-time sacrifice).

The letter to the Hebrews is extremely clear on these points .

-JGIG

There are a lot of details that go into that future Temple. I haven't seen any school of thought give a decent explanation. To spiritualize 8 chapters or whatever just seems over the top. That would give liberty to spiritualize 50% of the OT prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled, and as I have said those pointing up to the resurrection were fulfilled literally, so why not the rest?

 

[crossnote]

The passage says it's a sacrifice for sins, does it not? if yes, then to interpret it as "commemorative" would not taking the passage literally.

What passage in Ezekiel says 'sacrifice for sins'? I read sacrifices.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

I think we will be offering him bulls in the future no?

Speaks of rendering the calves/bulls of our lips in Hosea 14:2

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

There are a lot of details that go into that future Temple. I haven't seen any school of thought give a decent explanation. To spiritualize 8 chapters or whatever just seems over the top. That would give liberty to spiritualize 50% of the OT prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled, and as I have said those pointing up to the resurrection were fulfilled literally, so why not the rest?

my understanding of ezekiel's temple is that it was not actually a prophecy...it was instructions similar to the instructions for the tabernacle...

the jews were given the option of building a temple according to ezekiel's description at a particular time...but they never did build it and the window of opportunity to build it closed...

 

[RickyZ]

1. God said what is the sign of a true prophet? What he says comes true

Not to derail but I've often wondered what kind of time frame one should put on that. I mean, some OT prophets have said things that haven't yet occurred. How long should we wait for a prophecy to come true before we dismiss it as false?

 

[crossnote]

my understanding of ezekiel's temple is that it was not actually a prophecy...it was instructions similar to the instructions for the tabernacle...

the jews were given the option of building a temple according to ezekiel's description at a particular time...but they never did build it and the window of opportunity to build it closed...

Ezek 40:2 In visions of God he brought me to the land of Israel, and set me down on a very high mountain, on which was a structure like a city to the south. 3 When he brought me there, behold, there was a man whose appearance was like bronze, with a linen cord and a measuring reed in his hand. And he was standing in the gateway. 4 And the man said to me, “Son of man, look with your eyes, and hear with your ears, and set your heart upon all that I shall show you, for you were brought here in order that I might show it to you. Declare all that you see to the house of Israel.”

I've never read the 'window of opportunity closed'.
My gist, this Temple is not a directive for the Church but for Israel during the Millennial Kingdom...at least it makes as much sense as other views.

 

[crossnote]

Not to derail but I've often wondered what kind of time frame one should put on that. I mean, some OT prophets have said things that haven't yet occurred. How long should we wait for a prophecy to come true before we dismiss it as false?

Can you give an example?

 

[BibleGuy]

What passage in Ezekiel says 'sacrifice for sins'? I read sacrifices.

Hi crossnote!

Eze. 40:39 refers to a sin offering (H2403) ....maybe that's what you're looking for?

blessings...
BibleGuy