Dispensationalism
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TMS is correct with that interpretation, because God's Israel = Christ's Church.
This is even shown in the OT prophets that the believing Gentiles are graffed into... Israel, not the other way around.
Apostle Paul showed this clearly also in Ephesians 2 when preaching to Gentile believers and telling them they had come into the promises and covenants given Israel, and Paul then used the label "commonwealth of Israel".
Israel is actually a Salvation word. It means to prevail with God's help. It was given to Jacob because he wrestled with The Angel of The Lord and as a prince prevailed. In Rev.2 & 3 the word 'overcome' is used which represents this prevailing with Christ's help.
But the false prophets want to tear all that Biblical Truth down, and create division between the believers of Israel and the believers of Gentiles, even while saying both together make up Christ's Body! Those don't have a clue as to what they preach, it's like they do it only by rote from what their false prophets tell them to say.
That's what Dispensationalism does; it creates a false separation between God's Israel and Christ's Church where there is none Biblically.
This is even shown in the OT prophets that the believing Gentiles are graffed into... Israel, not the other way around.
Apostle Paul showed this clearly also in Ephesians 2 when preaching to Gentile believers and telling them they had come into the promises and covenants given Israel, and Paul then used the label "commonwealth of Israel".
Israel is actually a Salvation word. It means to prevail with God's help. It was given to Jacob because he wrestled with The Angel of The Lord and as a prince prevailed. In Rev.2 & 3 the word 'overcome' is used which represents this prevailing with Christ's help.
But the false prophets want to tear all that Biblical Truth down, and create division between the believers of Israel and the believers of Gentiles, even while saying both together make up Christ's Body! Those don't have a clue as to what they preach, it's like they do it only by rote from what their false prophets tell them to say.
That's what Dispensationalism does; it creates a false separation between God's Israel and Christ's Church where there is none Biblically.
Your statement was, "Those Scriptures have to do with the 2nd Coming and so?", which proved my point that you pre-tribbers are often guilty of not recognizing commonly used words when it comes to Scripture teaching an idea that's different than the doctrine you hold to.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
That Scripture is Jesus revealing the timing of His 2nd coming to gather His Church.
The words you pre-tribbers have difficulty with there is, "after the tribulation".
after - means following something, like the number 2 comes after... the no. 1.
the - an article, pointing to a noun, like "tribulation".
tribulation - the event of trials upon Christ's Church at the end of this world, what Jesus also called the "great tribulation" also in Matthew 24.
Very simple words you pre-tribbers would normally comprehend in other speech, just not as long as it that passage in God's Word.
Then the other excuses come too from your pre-trib false prophets, llike that Scripture was meant only for the disciples in Jesus' day, or that it's only for the Jews, or some other idiotic excuse to not heed it as written to the Church, all those ideas as false counters.
Both the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures align with 1 Thess.4 by Paul. It's the same event.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
That Scripture is Jesus revealing the timing of His 2nd coming to gather His Church.
The words you pre-tribbers have difficulty with there is, "after the tribulation".
after - means following something, like the number 2 comes after... the no. 1.
the - an article, pointing to a noun, like "tribulation".
tribulation - the event of trials upon Christ's Church at the end of this world, what Jesus also called the "great tribulation" also in Matthew 24.
Very simple words you pre-tribbers would normally comprehend in other speech, just not as long as it that passage in God's Word.
Then the other excuses come too from your pre-trib false prophets, llike that Scripture was meant only for the disciples in Jesus' day, or that it's only for the Jews, or some other idiotic excuse to not heed it as written to the Church, all those ideas as false counters.
Both the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures align with 1 Thess.4 by Paul. It's the same event.
I fail to see how those verses from Mt 24 precludes a pre-trib rapture...
Again, I take a literal approach to Scripture and see Israel and the Church separate. I don't cut hair over the timing of the rapture.
You seem to have lot's of vehemence against the pre-trib view. I take it that you hold to a classical PreMil view where the rapture happens after the tribulation. If so, your vehemence should be directed against Amil and Postmil where one does not hold to a literal Millennium and the other holds that Christ comes back after the Millennium. Do you call them false prophets too?
Do you really think eschatology is something to act like a 6th grader and call people names over?
Again, I take a literal approach to Scripture and see Israel and the Church separate. I don't cut hair over the timing of the rapture.
You seem to have lot's of vehemence against the pre-trib view. I take it that you hold to a classical PreMil view where the rapture happens after the tribulation. If so, your vehemence should be directed against Amil and Postmil where one does not hold to a literal Millennium and the other holds that Christ comes back after the Millennium. Do you call them false prophets too?
Do you really think eschatology is something to act like a 6th grader and call people names over?
I must have missed this.
Dispensationalism does... teach a dual Gospel. That's specifically the doctrine that Bullinger in the 1880s developed from John Darby's theory of Dispensationalism.
"Hyper-dispensationalism (or sometimes ultra-dispensationalism), as opposed to traditional (or classic) Dispensationalism, views the start of the Christian church as beginning with the ministry of the Apostle Paul after the early part of the book of Acts. Although variations exist in specifics, all hyper-dispensationalists view the four Gospels and many of New Testament Epistles as applying to the pre-Pauline Jewish-Christian church or to the future Davidic Kingdom; not directly applicable to the predominantly Gentile Church of today." (theopedia.com).
It's basically saying hyper-dispensationalism scraps all Bible Scripture except Paul's Epistles, and that the Gospel Paul taught for the Gentiles is a different Gospel that went to the Jews.
Dispensationalism does... teach a dual Gospel. That's specifically the doctrine that Bullinger in the 1880s developed from John Darby's theory of Dispensationalism.
"Hyper-dispensationalism (or sometimes ultra-dispensationalism), as opposed to traditional (or classic) Dispensationalism, views the start of the Christian church as beginning with the ministry of the Apostle Paul after the early part of the book of Acts. Although variations exist in specifics, all hyper-dispensationalists view the four Gospels and many of New Testament Epistles as applying to the pre-Pauline Jewish-Christian church or to the future Davidic Kingdom; not directly applicable to the predominantly Gentile Church of today." (theopedia.com).
It's basically saying hyper-dispensationalism scraps all Bible Scripture except Paul's Epistles, and that the Gospel Paul taught for the Gentiles is a different Gospel that went to the Jews.
That again proves my point about those like you who hold to Darby's pre-trib rapture doctrine.
Jesus taught His coming to gather His saints, which means His Church, is "after the tribulation" like I just showed you from Matt.24. That does make the Matt.24 verses "preclude" (make impossible) a pre-tribulational rapture of the Church.
Yet the Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scriptures are not the only Biblical proof that His coming and gathering of the Church is at the end of the tribulation. Apostle Paul also revealed the timing in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8.
Apostle Paul again pointed to Jesus' coming and gathering of the Church at the end of the tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 5. And what's funny is how in one of your posts you used one of the phrases there ("as a thief in the night") about Christ's coming to gather His Church to suggest a pre-tribulational coming, when the actual timing Paul hard-linked that phrase with is the 'day of The Lord' timing.
1 Thess 5:2
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
KJV
2 Peter 3:10-11
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
KJV
The day of The Lord events were first covered in the OT prophets. That is where both Apostles were teaching that idea from. That is the final... day... of this present world when that occurs.
And since Paul said that day will come 'as a thief', as Jesus showed also in Rev.16:15, it proves our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church is at the end of the tribulation, and not at any time before. At Rev.16:15, within the 6th Vial timing, Jesus is still warning His Church to remain faithful lest they walk in shame.
The reason why you misapplied that "as a thief in the night" phrase with a pre-trib coming of Christ is simply because that's what you've been wrongly taught to believe. Darby's pre-trib idea included the false theory that Jesus' coming to gather His Church is immanent, can happen at any moment, and those who push that theory use that "as a thief in the night" phrase to try and show that idea of surprise of Christ's coming to rapture the Church prior to the trib.
Problem is, like Paul said in 1 Thess.5, that day Paul spoke of there is NOT to take us by surprise "as a thief"!
1 Thess 5:4
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV
So if our Lord Jesus comes in secret (like Darby originally taught) to rapture His Church prior to the tribulation, then how would that be a surprise for the wicked which is the meaning of the "as a thief in the night" phrase? Some pre-trib doctors have even taught an idea that only... those in Christ will even 'see' Jesus at that secret pre-trib coming!
The inconsistency of the pre-tribulational rapture theory with written Scripture is proof that it is nothing but a doctrine of men, and not an idea in God's Word. And those who fail to recognize these simple differences in the theory vs. Holy Writ do show how they intend to follow a tradition of man instead of staying in God's Holy Writ.
I don't bring this matter up for any other reason than to show brethren in Christ that will go into His Word and check these Scripture distinctions out for themselves, so they will understand the deceptions of that pre-trib doctrine from men. This is why I included Darby's theory of Dispensationalism because it seems to follow Scripture until... you reach the Christian era and especially for the end regarding when our Lord Jesus returns to gather His Church. So if I am hated for pointing these things out, then so be it. I do for my Lord Jesus and for those who will take the time to verify in His Word instead of following some man.
Jesus taught His coming to gather His saints, which means His Church, is "after the tribulation" like I just showed you from Matt.24. That does make the Matt.24 verses "preclude" (make impossible) a pre-tribulational rapture of the Church.
Yet the Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scriptures are not the only Biblical proof that His coming and gathering of the Church is at the end of the tribulation. Apostle Paul also revealed the timing in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8.
Apostle Paul again pointed to Jesus' coming and gathering of the Church at the end of the tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 5. And what's funny is how in one of your posts you used one of the phrases there ("as a thief in the night") about Christ's coming to gather His Church to suggest a pre-tribulational coming, when the actual timing Paul hard-linked that phrase with is the 'day of The Lord' timing.
1 Thess 5:2
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
KJV
2 Peter 3:10-11
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
KJV
The day of The Lord events were first covered in the OT prophets. That is where both Apostles were teaching that idea from. That is the final... day... of this present world when that occurs.
And since Paul said that day will come 'as a thief', as Jesus showed also in Rev.16:15, it proves our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church is at the end of the tribulation, and not at any time before. At Rev.16:15, within the 6th Vial timing, Jesus is still warning His Church to remain faithful lest they walk in shame.
The reason why you misapplied that "as a thief in the night" phrase with a pre-trib coming of Christ is simply because that's what you've been wrongly taught to believe. Darby's pre-trib idea included the false theory that Jesus' coming to gather His Church is immanent, can happen at any moment, and those who push that theory use that "as a thief in the night" phrase to try and show that idea of surprise of Christ's coming to rapture the Church prior to the trib.
Problem is, like Paul said in 1 Thess.5, that day Paul spoke of there is NOT to take us by surprise "as a thief"!
1 Thess 5:4
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV
So if our Lord Jesus comes in secret (like Darby originally taught) to rapture His Church prior to the tribulation, then how would that be a surprise for the wicked which is the meaning of the "as a thief in the night" phrase? Some pre-trib doctors have even taught an idea that only... those in Christ will even 'see' Jesus at that secret pre-trib coming!
The inconsistency of the pre-tribulational rapture theory with written Scripture is proof that it is nothing but a doctrine of men, and not an idea in God's Word. And those who fail to recognize these simple differences in the theory vs. Holy Writ do show how they intend to follow a tradition of man instead of staying in God's Holy Writ.
I don't bring this matter up for any other reason than to show brethren in Christ that will go into His Word and check these Scripture distinctions out for themselves, so they will understand the deceptions of that pre-trib doctrine from men. This is why I included Darby's theory of Dispensationalism because it seems to follow Scripture until... you reach the Christian era and especially for the end regarding when our Lord Jesus returns to gather His Church. So if I am hated for pointing these things out, then so be it. I do for my Lord Jesus and for those who will take the time to verify in His Word instead of following some man.
Again that precludes nothing. Saints are believers of all ages and not restricted to the Church age.
The Church is made up of believers, both Jews and Gentiles, in Christ Jesus who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit who together are called the One NEW Man...in place of the two. Thus you cannot equate Israel with the Church...
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, (Eph 2:15).
This is the Church age since Pentecost. It goes with Jesus' saying "I will build my Church" (not I have been building etc.)
Mt 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Mat 16:18)
When the Church is raptured, God will once again be focusing on Israel as she heads for Jacob's trouble..
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
(Jer 30:7)
in which God will save his remnant saints of Israel.
You may be convicted along different lines, fine. I'm only showing you from Scripture and not from Darby (as you kept insinuating) my convictions.
The Church is made up of believers, both Jews and Gentiles, in Christ Jesus who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit who together are called the One NEW Man...in place of the two. Thus you cannot equate Israel with the Church...
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, (Eph 2:15).
This is the Church age since Pentecost. It goes with Jesus' saying "I will build my Church" (not I have been building etc.)
Mt 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Mat 16:18)
When the Church is raptured, God will once again be focusing on Israel as she heads for Jacob's trouble..
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
(Jer 30:7)
in which God will save his remnant saints of Israel.
You may be convicted along different lines, fine. I'm only showing you from Scripture and not from Darby (as you kept insinuating) my convictions.
That doesn't address the Scripture that I posted. An honest look at those Scriptures I offered proves the pre-trib rapture theory as nothing but a doctrine of man, and not an idea in God's Word.
And since you mentioned the idea of Church Age, there's another little Dispensationalist treat that is pushed in their circles, but originally it's an idea that sprang from the Catholic side of the fence and was taken up by the Reformers, and got into the Darbyites and Dispensationalism that way. It's the idea of each one of the seven Churches of Rev.2 & 3 serving as Church Age periods of Church history, and our supposedly today being in the Laodician Church Age.
Those kind of ideas like different historical Church Ages being represented by our Lord Jesus' seven Messages to the seven Churches in Asia are just another example of men playing with Scripture they aren't given to understand. God had not shown them, so they had to come up with something else to make others 'think' they understood it, which is how the Church Ages theory came about, just another doctrine of men from hirelings that God did not call.
The real meaning of Jesus' seven Messages to the seven Churches in Asia involve the seven candlestick pattern that is in Heaven...
Rev 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
KJV
Couldn't those Church Ages theory doctors read that, which Jesus showed there that in Heaven there exists a 7 candlestick pattern for the seven earthly Churches? They no doubt missed this verse too...
Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV
John saw those 7 candlesticks in... Heaven (Rev.1:10-12). And Jesus to the Church at Ephesus He warned them to repent or He would remove their candlestick from his place.
The meaning then becomes plain. If the seven Churches represented Church Age periods, then there would be no seven candlestick pattern in Heaven with all seven existing at the same time that Jesus showed when He first gave the seven Messages. The seven Messages were all in effect at the same time when they were given to John to give to the seven Churches. Likewise those seven Messages are still in effect for today as Heavenly patterns for seven types of Churches among the whole of Christianity.
Our Lord's main purpose in that is to recognize what kind of Church you are in. Is your Church doing what those at Sardis or Thyatira were doing? Or is your Church following what the Churches of Smyrna or Philadelphia were doing? By that, one begins to recognize some of the problems in the various Church types all the way to the end of this world.
But the Church Ages theory destroys all that. It instead teaches to look at each of the seven Churches as eras of Christian history, so if Ephesus, being the first Church mentioned, represents the first Church age, then when the second Church age starts it automatically suggests the first age is over and no more, meaning no longer have to look for those kind of problems Ephesus had, and so on. What that does is deny the purpose Jesus gave us for His seven Messages, because He pointed to the very end of this world within each one of them.
And since you mentioned the idea of Church Age, there's another little Dispensationalist treat that is pushed in their circles, but originally it's an idea that sprang from the Catholic side of the fence and was taken up by the Reformers, and got into the Darbyites and Dispensationalism that way. It's the idea of each one of the seven Churches of Rev.2 & 3 serving as Church Age periods of Church history, and our supposedly today being in the Laodician Church Age.
Those kind of ideas like different historical Church Ages being represented by our Lord Jesus' seven Messages to the seven Churches in Asia are just another example of men playing with Scripture they aren't given to understand. God had not shown them, so they had to come up with something else to make others 'think' they understood it, which is how the Church Ages theory came about, just another doctrine of men from hirelings that God did not call.
The real meaning of Jesus' seven Messages to the seven Churches in Asia involve the seven candlestick pattern that is in Heaven...
Rev 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
KJV
Couldn't those Church Ages theory doctors read that, which Jesus showed there that in Heaven there exists a 7 candlestick pattern for the seven earthly Churches? They no doubt missed this verse too...
Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV
John saw those 7 candlesticks in... Heaven (Rev.1:10-12). And Jesus to the Church at Ephesus He warned them to repent or He would remove their candlestick from his place.
The meaning then becomes plain. If the seven Churches represented Church Age periods, then there would be no seven candlestick pattern in Heaven with all seven existing at the same time that Jesus showed when He first gave the seven Messages. The seven Messages were all in effect at the same time when they were given to John to give to the seven Churches. Likewise those seven Messages are still in effect for today as Heavenly patterns for seven types of Churches among the whole of Christianity.
Our Lord's main purpose in that is to recognize what kind of Church you are in. Is your Church doing what those at Sardis or Thyatira were doing? Or is your Church following what the Churches of Smyrna or Philadelphia were doing? By that, one begins to recognize some of the problems in the various Church types all the way to the end of this world.
But the Church Ages theory destroys all that. It instead teaches to look at each of the seven Churches as eras of Christian history, so if Ephesus, being the first Church mentioned, represents the first Church age, then when the second Church age starts it automatically suggests the first age is over and no more, meaning no longer have to look for those kind of problems Ephesus had, and so on. What that does is deny the purpose Jesus gave us for His seven Messages, because He pointed to the very end of this world within each one of them.
But back to the idea of Dispensationalism, its origin, and what it's actually about:
Theopedia says this, which is historically accurate;
"Dispensationalism is a theological system that teaches biblical history is best understood in light of a number of successive administrations of God's dealings with mankind, which it calls "dispensations." It maintains fundamental distinctions between God's plans for national Israel and for the New Testament Church, and emphasizes prophecy of the end-times and a pre-tribulation rapture of the church prior to Christ's Second Coming. Its beginnings are usually associated with the Plymouth Brethren movement in the UK and the teachings of John Nelson Darby.
The Plymouth Brethren movement, basically a reaction against the established church in England and its ecclesiology, became known for its anti-denominational, anti-clerical, and anti-credal stance. While theologically orthodox, the Plymouth Brethren (Darby in particular) developed unique ideas regarding the interpretation of Scripture while emphasizing prophecy and the second coming of Christ. The theology of this movement became known as "Dispensationalism."
This new teaching spread in America through prophecy conferences such as the Niagara Bible Conferences (1883-1897). James H. Brookes (1830-1898), a pastor in St. Louis and prominent figure in the Niagara Conferences, disseminated dispensationalist ideas through his ministry and publications. Most importantly, Dwight L. Moody was sympathetic to the broad outlines of dispensationalism and had as his closest lieutenants dispensationalist leaders such as Reuben A. Torrey (1856-1928), James M. Gray (1851-1925), Cyrus I. Scofield (1843-1921), William J. Eerdman (1833-1923), A. C. Dixon (1854-1925), and A. J. Gordon (1836-1895). These men were activist evangelists who promoted a host of Bible conferences and other missionary and evangelistic efforts. They also gave the dispensationalist movement institutional permanence by assuming leadership of the new independent Bible institutes such as the Moody Bible Institute (1886), the Bible Institute of Los Angeles (1907), and the Philadelphia College of the Bible (1914). The network of related institutes that soon sprang up became the nucleus for the spread of American dispensationalism." (theopedia.com)
Did you read that about the origin of Dispensationalism from the Plymouth Brethren in 1830s Britain? Here's the main point again...
"While theologically orthodox, the Plymouth Brethren (Darby in particular) developed unique ideas regarding the interpretation of Scripture while emphasizing prophecy and the second coming of Christ. The theology of this movement became known as "Dispensationalism."
That shows what I've said about Dispensationalism and the Pre-trib Rapture, which Darby was involved in developing both ideas, as linked together.
Theopedia says this, which is historically accurate;
"Dispensationalism is a theological system that teaches biblical history is best understood in light of a number of successive administrations of God's dealings with mankind, which it calls "dispensations." It maintains fundamental distinctions between God's plans for national Israel and for the New Testament Church, and emphasizes prophecy of the end-times and a pre-tribulation rapture of the church prior to Christ's Second Coming. Its beginnings are usually associated with the Plymouth Brethren movement in the UK and the teachings of John Nelson Darby.
The Plymouth Brethren movement, basically a reaction against the established church in England and its ecclesiology, became known for its anti-denominational, anti-clerical, and anti-credal stance. While theologically orthodox, the Plymouth Brethren (Darby in particular) developed unique ideas regarding the interpretation of Scripture while emphasizing prophecy and the second coming of Christ. The theology of this movement became known as "Dispensationalism."
This new teaching spread in America through prophecy conferences such as the Niagara Bible Conferences (1883-1897). James H. Brookes (1830-1898), a pastor in St. Louis and prominent figure in the Niagara Conferences, disseminated dispensationalist ideas through his ministry and publications. Most importantly, Dwight L. Moody was sympathetic to the broad outlines of dispensationalism and had as his closest lieutenants dispensationalist leaders such as Reuben A. Torrey (1856-1928), James M. Gray (1851-1925), Cyrus I. Scofield (1843-1921), William J. Eerdman (1833-1923), A. C. Dixon (1854-1925), and A. J. Gordon (1836-1895). These men were activist evangelists who promoted a host of Bible conferences and other missionary and evangelistic efforts. They also gave the dispensationalist movement institutional permanence by assuming leadership of the new independent Bible institutes such as the Moody Bible Institute (1886), the Bible Institute of Los Angeles (1907), and the Philadelphia College of the Bible (1914). The network of related institutes that soon sprang up became the nucleus for the spread of American dispensationalism." (theopedia.com)
Did you read that about the origin of Dispensationalism from the Plymouth Brethren in 1830s Britain? Here's the main point again...
"While theologically orthodox, the Plymouth Brethren (Darby in particular) developed unique ideas regarding the interpretation of Scripture while emphasizing prophecy and the second coming of Christ. The theology of this movement became known as "Dispensationalism."
That shows what I've said about Dispensationalism and the Pre-trib Rapture, which Darby was involved in developing both ideas, as linked together.
The real problem with the pre-trib theory is that you're not going to prepare for something you don't think you're going to see. And Jesus said that when it hits the fan many will turn away from Him because they weren't prepared. I'd be real curious to know that when people turn from Christ in the end times, what percentage of them hold to the pre-trib theory. I'd bet that it's going to be a pretty high number.
I think as one holding to the pretrib I am to be watching for Him at any time. That is what Jesus said in many places.
To me it seems like the post tribbers wouldn't start watching for His return until sometime after the Tribulation starts, even after the Tribulation itself, since that's when they have Him scheduled to rapture the Church.
To me it seems like the post tribbers wouldn't start watching for His return until sometime after the Tribulation starts, even after the Tribulation itself, since that's when they have Him scheduled to rapture the Church.
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Hi RickyZ,
If I may jump in: those who believe that Christ is going to appear and remove his church prior to God's wrath being poured out would not turn away from Christ if they were wrong regarding the time of His appearing. If anything, we would go immediately to prayer asking God to help us to go through what we already know is going to take place during that time period and help us to be prepared for persecution and death if that was to be our fate. Those who hold to a pre-trib belief, regardless of our interpretation, should always be prepared to be persecuted and even put to death for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. What those who don't hold to a pre-trib belief do not understand is the difference between persecution at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. God's coming wrath, which scripture tells us that we are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus rescued us from the coming wrath. It would be ridiculous to think that just because the chronological order of things didn't turn out the way we believed that we would abandon ship.
My point being is that, regardless of interpretation, as believers in Christ we should always be prepared for persecution and death for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. Our faith in Jesus does not hinge on whether or not things take place in order the way we interpret them.
As I have said so many times on this site, those who believe that God is going to send His church through His time of wrath don't understand the severity and magnitude of the coming wrath of God. They are also not believing that Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, that He has already satisfied God's wrath as a result of our sins. In that case God would be pouring out His wrath on believers who have already been reconciled to Him. Once you understand the chaos and destruction that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going bring, then you will understand and believe in Christ's promise when he said, "I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the face of the earth."
Pre-trib = Those looking for the appearing of the Lord according to His promise
Mid/post - trib = Those looking to go through the wrath of God before Christ's appearing
If I may jump in: those who believe that Christ is going to appear and remove his church prior to God's wrath being poured out would not turn away from Christ if they were wrong regarding the time of His appearing. If anything, we would go immediately to prayer asking God to help us to go through what we already know is going to take place during that time period and help us to be prepared for persecution and death if that was to be our fate. Those who hold to a pre-trib belief, regardless of our interpretation, should always be prepared to be persecuted and even put to death for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. What those who don't hold to a pre-trib belief do not understand is the difference between persecution at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. God's coming wrath, which scripture tells us that we are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus rescued us from the coming wrath. It would be ridiculous to think that just because the chronological order of things didn't turn out the way we believed that we would abandon ship.
My point being is that, regardless of interpretation, as believers in Christ we should always be prepared for persecution and death for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. Our faith in Jesus does not hinge on whether or not things take place in order the way we interpret them.
As I have said so many times on this site, those who believe that God is going to send His church through His time of wrath don't understand the severity and magnitude of the coming wrath of God. They are also not believing that Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, that He has already satisfied God's wrath as a result of our sins. In that case God would be pouring out His wrath on believers who have already been reconciled to Him. Once you understand the chaos and destruction that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going bring, then you will understand and believe in Christ's promise when he said, "I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the face of the earth."
Pre-trib = Those looking for the appearing of the Lord according to His promise
Mid/post - trib = Those looking to go through the wrath of God before Christ's appearing
Also if I might add, there is no preparing for the time of God's wrath. There are only two places that gives a percentage of the fatalities regarding God's wrath, one is the 4th seal which is a fourth and the other is the 6th trumpet which is a third. With just those two alone and based on a population of 7 billion people, that would equal approx. 4.5 billion fatalities with in that first 3 1/2 years and that's not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor from the seven bowl judgments. The result of God's wrath will be as follows:
"For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."
"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,
idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” (Zeph.1:1)
"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir." (Isa.13:12)
The Lord is going to remove His church prior to performing the above.
"For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."
"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,
declares the Lord.
I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” (Zeph.1:1)
"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir." (Isa.13:12)
The Lord is going to remove His church prior to performing the above.
I remember last year I was accused on here of following x-y-z people (names I hadn't even heard of before). The truth is, I didn't align myself with any particular camp, I just read the scriptures at home (on my own) and my views were a result of that (Holy Spirit guidance). Obviously there will be others who get the same interpretation, but that does not make me a follower of those people. What if said person had another completely alien view - is it to be assumed that I agree with that view also, since we both agree on one interpretation? That's scary because it leads to false assumptions.
1 Cor 1:12-13: "Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"
On the other side, there are some who align themselves with a particular camp, and in order to keep their chosen view they must then twist hundreds of scriptures to make them fit with said view. For example, with the preterist view there is one particular scripture that they claim is talking about Jesus when in fact it's talking of Antichrist. How can one get the two confused? It's because if that particular verse is not talking of Jesus then it shoots down their view and they don't want that. It's clear to see the verse is speaking of Antichrist without aligning yourself with any chosen view... but some must twist scriptures to favor their views, rather than change their view to fit with the scriptures. Very sad.
End of rant, just wanted to get that out there
1 Cor 1:12-13: "Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"
On the other side, there are some who align themselves with a particular camp, and in order to keep their chosen view they must then twist hundreds of scriptures to make them fit with said view. For example, with the preterist view there is one particular scripture that they claim is talking about Jesus when in fact it's talking of Antichrist. How can one get the two confused? It's because if that particular verse is not talking of Jesus then it shoots down their view and they don't want that. It's clear to see the verse is speaking of Antichrist without aligning yourself with any chosen view... but some must twist scriptures to favor their views, rather than change their view to fit with the scriptures. Very sad.
End of rant, just wanted to get that out there