Let's Take a Deeper Look at this Hyper Stuff

[Angela53510]

The idea of trying to somehow “balance grace” with anything is ludicrous according to both Scripture and plain reason. Grace, by definition, is radically IMBALANCED in our favor! If it were not, it would cease to be grace on that very basis! The term “hyper-grace” is far from insulting! It is in fact the ONLY kind of grace taught, supported and promoted in the Bible.

God understands that His grace is open to the possibility of abuse by those who might misunderstand it. He understands that people may take His grace for granted or even at times misrepresent it as a license to sin. Paul addressed those concerns very clearly, as did Jesus and the other New Testament writers. He was slanderously accused of saying for people to sin now all the want because of the true gospel of the grace of Christ by those that did not understand what he was saying.

However, the fact that grace is open to misinterpretation and the possibility of abuse does not give us license to water it down, explain it away or cheapen its glory by adding a single measure of law into it as an attempt to stay "balanced."

There is nothing balanced whatsoever about the grace of God! We rejoice in that! We celebrate that! We proclaim that without apology!

View attachment 156284

This sadly, is the kind of Greek you get when you study at the feet of Joseph Prince. You get elementary word studies that are ripped out of context of the paragraph, the chapter and the book to say nothing of the Bible, OT and NT.

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:18-21

"νόμος δὲ παρεισῆλθεν ἵνα πλεονάσῃ τὸ παράπτωμα· οὗ δὲ ἐπλεόνασεν ἡ ἁμαρτία, ὑπερεπερίσσευσεν ἡ χάρις,21 ἵνα ὥσπερ ἐβασίλευσεν ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐν τῷ θανάτῳ, οὕτως καὶ ἡ χάρις βασιλεύσῃ διὰ δικαιοσύνης εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν." Romans 5:20-21

No one can deny the meaning of ὑπερεπερίσσευσεν or the lexical form ὑπερπερίσσευω means "to be on a very high scale of amount, be in great excess, in Romans 5:20. This is the definition of Bauer BAGD. My exegetical book says, "to abound more exceedingly, the preposition super ὑπερ magnifies the root word in this compound work.

Well and good! Every post I read on every thread in this controversy, no one is denying God's amazing grace. Really there are no words to describe this grace - it has to be known and experienced. And there is nothing that abounds more than being a sinner who is under death, living a miserable life, going to knowing God's grace and God saving that person as he repents of his sin and turns to God.

However, this explanation in the meme above misses too many important points in Romans 5:20-21, to say nothing of 18-21, and 1-21. Ok, and all of Romans! (theBible?)

So what is Romans about? It is a theological treatise that Paul wrote to the Romans. It is as close to a systematic theology as the early church had. It just doesn't talk about ONE WORD in ONE VERSE. Instead, the book opens with an explanation of sin. See Romans 1, 2, 3!

For that matter just read the chapter in question - Romans 5. For that matter, just read Romans 5:20-21 as I have posted above in English and Greek.)

Because this passage is NOT ABOUT US! It is about the work Christ came to do. To only emphasize one word - "abounding exceedingly," is appalling hermeneutics. We are NEVER to make a doctrine out of one verse, let alone a word which is basically a hapax legomena (appears only one time - but then, we have the same issue with authentic in 1 Tim. 2:12, don't we?) Instead we need to look at words like "death," and "sin" in Romans 5:12 earlier, as well as 5:21. Why? Because the gospel is not just about the end result of justification (Romans 5:1) but also about what we are saved from. "Sin" and death."

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[a] because all sinned—" Romans 5:12

So to claim that pulling a word out of context, a word (ὑπερπερίσσευω) which only appears here and in 2 Cor. 7:4, (in a different context) is not unbalanced theologically is to point to exactly the crux of the debate that most of us have been trying to make to hyper grace believers for months now. (Ok, I went back to Biblical Christianity a bit later than some others, have been swayed by a very unbalanced reading of the situation in this forum.)

(And to claim it is "unbalanced" to support your unbalanced view is just another trick to persuade the young Christians of the lie of this whole theology. What a way to twist words as usual by the hyper grace crowd!)

So yes, hyper grace, the movement originating from Joseph Prince and proselytized by his devotees is unbalanced! And unbalanced meaning - misses too many essential soteriological biblical components of salvation !

One of the better and new commentaries, The New International Greek Testament Commentary NIGTC: The Epistle to the Romans by Richard N. Longnecker, a world renowned Greek scholar says the following things about the theology of Romans 5:20-21. It is long, but it is important, because we do need a balanced view of Scripture. We do NOT need to emphasize one word, ὑπερπερίσσευω, at the expense of the other words in this passage and the entire rest of the Bible. This whole chapter is on justification, not sanctification. And it is not about us, but rather the incredible grace of God in Christ Jesus, who died on our behalf that we might be made righteous in him.

"1. The "dark side" of every person's life has to do with "sin," "death," and being under "divine condemnation." There are the mocking sectors that permeate every facet of human experience and invade every corner of human consciousness. They are in fact, the major factors that constitute the basic components of the universal "human predicament" and so in Paul's proclamation of the Christian gospel to pagan Gentiles in the Greco-Roman world, he struck a responsive chord in the hearts and minds of many of his spiritually sensitive hearers.

2. At the heart of the Christian gospel are such vitally important matters as "God's grace," "righteousness as a gift from God," Jesus' "one principle act of righteousness" (i.e. his death on the cross), and the provisions of "life," "the righteousness of life" and "eternal life" that are offered to all people. Ignore or minimize these central features of the Christian proclamation, and one has "no gospel" and that is, no "good news" at all, but only moral platitudes or psychological analyses of the human situation.

3. The focal point of Paul's proclamation in this period of the eschatological "now" is on "the obedience" of Jesus
Christ, as declared in 5:19 and this lies at the heart of the "Christian hymn" in Phil. 2:6-11. [All about Jesus!!] It appears in cognate forms in Romans both in the development of his teaching on "the faithfulness" of Jesus Christ, and his use of the titles "Son" and "Son of God."

4. The law, (whether a so-called natural law, or the Mosaic law) has no part in bringing about "life," "righteousness" or "eternal life" - other than revealing sin, and because of people's perverted response to God in their increased knowledge of sin, actually increasing sin. [Paul said it, not me or the commentator - "Now the law came in to increase the trespass," 5:20]

5. The universalism of God's grace, which has been made effective "through Jesus Christ our Lord," has to do with what God has provided on behalf of all people. [Another meaning for "huper" - on behalf of in the genitive!] It does not, however, as seen in the future tense ("will be") of the verbs (both expressed and implied) in 5:18-19, and the subjective mood (may" or "might") of the verse in 5:21 assure inevitability, but rather speaks of what God has graciously provided, to which people need to respond positively."

(NIGTC: Romans 600-601)


My take on it:

1. Rather than applying this to word "abounding exceedingly" (ὑπερπερίσσευω) to the totality of our Christian walk, in fact, the extremely low frequency word is specifically talking about the grace as applied to salvation. And Paul does not use it when referring to sanctification in the following chapters of Romans. (See 8 especially!)

Salvation is a miracle of God, there is no doubt about it. We all need to remember what God has done for us! Which brings us to:

2. The hyper grace phenomena tends to totally ignore sin! Because Romans 5:21 is about justification, and takes us from our state before we were saved, to our state once we have repented of our sins and believed - and that is positional righteousness. This verse never says we can forget about sin. It is a verse which is confirmed in the rest of Romans and the Bible - that sin is a big deal, but thank God, Jesus Christ beat it at the cross.

So I am already hearing the cries of "But we never said we don't sin" but the definition of sin and repentance in hyper grace theology, (to use the term loosely) has changed so badly as to be unrecognizable in the gospel according to JP.

Sin is PART OF THE GOSPEL! It is the bad part, the balancing part. We simply need to acknowledge that sin is ongoing in our lives, and we need the Holy Spirit to convict us of our disobedience. Paul knew the importance of being obedient to God.

3. By underemphasizing OBEDIENCE, the hyper grace movement has again, lost Biblical Christianity. We need to be obedient to Christ. That needs to be emphasized on a daily basis. It is too easy for our human flesh to slide backwards if we are not reminded of who Christ is in our prayers, reading the word of God and preaching in our fellowships. (Not saying we are going to lose our salvation, but who wants to live a life far from God?)

"For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything" 2 Cor. 2:9

"What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed," Romans 6:15-17

So the entire BALANCED gospel message is:

sin (and death) -->repentance --> grace abounding! --> justification-->obedience (eternal life!)

If you take "grace abounding exceedingly out of this equation, as found in Romans 5:21, then you are not preaching or teaching God's gospel, but a false one! You are teaching an incredibly out-of-context theology.

So yes, again, hyper grace is unbalanced in every way. But that is never to deny the grace of God! And hyper grace is a coined term, which is unbalanced not because of the work of Christ is so great, but because of the way hyper grace teachers and proselytizers pull the word out of context.

PS And don't bother quoting Romans 5:20 again to me, or misusing that poor word "ὑπερπερίσσευω" to encompass all of our Christian walk, instead of seeing it in conjunction with the entire gospel of repentance from sin and justification by faith in Christ to our journey of sanctification or being made holy through the power of the Holy Spirit.

PPS Oh yes, please stop copying and pasting and putting up these simple minded memes. Everyone needs to discuss the Bible in their own words. Yes, you can quote a source, for sure, but make the topic of your post one which comes from the Bible and your own heart, and experience. I know everyone would grow so much more, if they stuck to reading their Bible, instead of watching questionable internet videos from false prophets and teachers.

You just can't go wrong reading and relying on the Bible - English or Greek!

 

[BenFTW]

This sadly, is the kind of Greek you get when you study at the feet of Joseph Prince. You get elementary word studies that are ripped out of context of the paragraph, the chapter and the book to say nothing of the Bible, OT and NT.

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:18-21

"νόμος δὲ παρεισῆλθεν ἵνα πλεονάσῃ τὸ παράπτωμα· οὗ δὲ ἐπλεόνασεν ἡ ἁμαρτία, ὑπερεπερίσσευσεν ἡ χάρις,21 ἵνα ὥσπερ ἐβασίλευσεν ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐν τῷ θανάτῳ, οὕτως καὶ ἡ χάρις βασιλεύσῃ διὰ δικαιοσύνης εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν." Romans 5:20-21

No one can deny the meaning of ὑπερεπερίσσευσεν or the lexical form ὑπερπερίσσευω means "to be on a very high scale of amount, be in great excess, in Romans 5:20. This is the definition of Bauer BAGD. My exegetical book says, "to abound more exceedingly, the preposition super ὑπερ magnifies the root word in this compound work.

Well and good! Every post I read on every thread in this controversy, no one is denying God's amazing grace. Really there are no words to describe this grace - it has to be known and experienced. And there is nothing that abounds more than being a sinner who is under death, living a miserable life, going to knowing God's grace and God saving that person as he repents of his sin and turns to God.

However, this explanation in the meme above misses too many important points in Romans 5:20-21, to say nothing of 18-21, and 1-21. Ok, and all of Romans! (theBible?)

So what is Romans about? It is a theological treatise that Paul wrote to the Romans. It is as close to a systematic theology as the early church had. It just doesn't talk about ONE WORD in ONE VERSE. Instead, the book opens with an explanation of sin. See Romans 1, 2, 3!

For that matter just read the chapter in question - Romans 5. For that matter, just read Romans 5:20-21 as I have posted above in English and Greek.)

Because this passage is NOT ABOUT US! It is about the work Christ came to do. To only emphasize one word - "abounding exceedingly," is appalling hermeneutics. We are NEVER to make a doctrine out of one verse, let alone a word which is basically a hapax legomena (appears only one time - but then, we have the same issue with authentic in 1 Tim. 2:12, don't we?) Instead we need to look at words like "death," and "sin" in Romans 5:12 earlier, as well as 5:21. Why? Because the gospel is not just about the end result of justification (Romans 5:1) but also about what we are saved from. "Sin" and death."

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[a] because all sinned—" Romans 5:12

So to claim that pulling a word out of context, a word (ὑπερπερίσσευω) which only appears here and in 2 Cor. 7:4, (in a different context) is not unbalanced theologically is to point to exactly the crux of the debate that most of us have been trying to make to hyper grace believers for months now. (Ok, I went back to Biblical Christianity a bit later than some others, have been swayed by a very unbalanced reading of the situation in this forum.)

(And to claim it is "unbalanced" to support your unbalanced view is just another trick to persuade the young Christians of the lie of this whole theology. What a way to twist words as usual by the hyper grace crowd!)

So yes, hyper grace, the movement originating from Joseph Prince and proselytized by his devotees is unbalanced! And unbalanced meaning - misses too many essential soteriological biblical components of salvation !

One of the better and new commentaries, The New International Greek Testament Commentary NIGTC: The Epistle to the Romans by Richard N. Longnecker, a world renowned Greek scholar says the following things about the theology of Romans 5:20-21. It is long, but it is important, because we do need a balanced view of Scripture. We do NOT need to emphasize one word, ὑπερπερίσσευω, at the expense of the other words in this passage and the entire rest of the Bible. This whole chapter is on justification, not sanctification. And it is not about us, but rather the incredible grace of God in Christ Jesus, who died on our behalf that we might be made righteous in him.

"1. The "dark side" of every person's life has to do with "sin," "death," and being under "divine condemnation." There are the mocking sectors that permeate every facet of human experience and invade every corner of human consciousness. They are in fact, the major factors that constitute the basic components of the universal "human predicament" and so in Paul's proclamation of the Christian gospel to pagan Gentiles in the Greco-Roman world, he struck a responsive chord in the hearts and minds of many of his spiritually sensitive hearers.

2. At the heart of the Christian gospel are such vitally important matters as "God's grace," "righteousness as a gift from God," Jesus' "one principle act of righteousness" (i.e. his death on the cross), and the provisions of "life," "the righteousness of life" and "eternal life" that are offered to all people. Ignore or minimize these central features of the Christian proclamation, and one has "no gospel" and that is, no "good news" at all, but only moral platitudes or psychological analyses of the human situation.

3. The focal point of Paul's proclamation in this period of the eschatological "now" is on "the obedience" of Jesus
Christ, as declared in 5:19 and this lies at the heart of the "Christian hymn" in Phil. 2:6-11. [All about Jesus!!] It appears in cognate forms in Romans both in the development of his teaching on "the faithfulness" of Jesus Christ, and his use of the titles "Son" and "Son of God."

4. The law, (whether a so-called natural law, or the Mosaic law) has no part in bringing about "life," "righteousness" or "eternal life" - other than revealing sin, and because of people's perverted response to God in their increased knowledge of sin, actually increasing sin. [Paul said it, not me or the commentator - "Now the law came in to increase the trespass," 5:20]

5. The universalism of God's grace, which has been made effective "through Jesus Christ our Lord," has to do with what God has provided on behalf of all people. [Another meaning for "huper" - on behalf of in the genitive!] It does not, however, as seen in the future tense ("will be") of the verbs (both expressed and implied) in 5:18-19, and the subjective mood (may" or "might") of the verse in 5:21 assure inevitability, but rather speaks of what God has graciously provided, to which people need to respond positively."

(NIGTC: Romans 600-601)


My take on it:

1. Rather than applying this to word "abounding exceedingly" (ὑπερπερίσσευω) to the totality of our Christian walk, in fact, the extremely low frequency word is specifically talking about the grace as applied to salvation. And Paul does not use it when referring to sanctification in the following chapters of Romans. (See 8 especially!)

Salvation is a miracle of God, there is no doubt about it. We all need to remember what God has done for us! Which brings us to:

2. The hyper grace phenomena tends to totally ignore sin! Because Romans 5:21 is about justification, and takes us from our state before we were saved, to our state once we have repented of our sins and believed - and that is positional righteousness. This verse never says we can forget about sin. It is a verse which is confirmed in the rest of Romans and the Bible - that sin is a big deal, but thank God, Jesus Christ beat it at the cross.

So I am already hearing the cries of "But we never said we don't sin" but the definition of sin and repentance in hyper grace theology, (to use the term loosely) has changed so badly as to be unrecognizable in the gospel according to JP.

Sin is PART OF THE GOSPEL! It is the bad part, the balancing part. We simply need to acknowledge that sin is ongoing in our lives, and we need the Holy Spirit to convict us of our disobedience. Paul knew the importance of being obedient to God.

3. By underemphasizing OBEDIENCE, the hyper grace movement has again, lost Biblical Christianity. We need to be obedient to Christ. That needs to be emphasized on a daily basis. It is too easy for our human flesh to slide backwards if we are not reminded of who Christ is in our prayers, reading the word of God and preaching in our fellowships. (Not saying we are going to lose our salvation, but who wants to live a life far from God?)

"For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything" 2 Cor. 2:9

"What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed," Romans 6:15-17

So the entire BALANCED gospel message is:

sin (and death) -->repentance --> grace abounding! --> justification-->obedience (eternal life!)

If you take "grace abounding exceedingly out of this equation, as found in Romans 5:21, then you are not preaching or teaching God's gospel, but a false one! You are teaching an incredibly out-of-context theology.

So yes, again, hyper grace is unbalanced in every way. But that is never to deny the grace of God! And hyper grace is a coined term, which is unbalanced not because of the work of Christ is so great, but because of the way hyper grace teachers and proselytizers pull the word out of context.

PS And don't bother quoting Romans 5:20 again to me, or misusing that poor word "ὑπερπερίσσευω" to encompass all of our Christian walk, instead of seeing it in conjunction with the entire gospel of repentance from sin and justification by faith in Christ to our journey of sanctification or being made holy through the power of the Holy Spirit.

PPS Oh yes, please stop copying and pasting and putting up these simple minded memes. Everyone needs to discuss the Bible in their own words. Yes, you can quote a source, for sure, but make the topic of your post one which comes from the Bible and your own heart, and experience. I know everyone would grow so much more, if they stuck to reading their Bible, instead of watching questionable internet videos from false prophets and teachers.

You just can't go wrong reading and relying on the Bible - English or Greek!

Can I ask you something? Is sin confession necessary for forgiveness or is that forgiveness found at the cross of Jesus Christ, by the blood of Jesus? Our sins have experienced remission by the blood of Christ, right? So, why do we seek forgiveness from some other avenue than the blood of Jesus Christ? Please, make sense of this to me.

 

[Grace777x70]

This sadly, is the kind of Greek you get when you study at the feet of Joseph Prince. You get elementary word studies that are ripped out of context of the paragraph, the chapter and the book to say nothing of the Bible, OT and NT.

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:18-21

"νόμος δὲ παρεισῆλθεν ἵνα πλεονάσῃ τὸ παράπτωμα· οὗ δὲ ἐπλεόνασεν ἡ ἁμαρτία, ὑπερεπερίσσευσεν ἡ χάρις,21 ἵνα ὥσπερ ἐβασίλευσεν ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐν τῷ θανάτῳ, οὕτως καὶ ἡ χάρις βασιλεύσῃ διὰ δικαιοσύνης εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν." Romans 5:20-21

No one can deny the meaning of ὑπερεπερίσσευσεν or the lexical form ὑπερπερίσσευω means "to be on a very high scale of amount, be in great excess, in Romans 5:20. This is the definition of Bauer BAGD. My exegetical book says, "to abound more exceedingly, the preposition super ὑπερ magnifies the root word in this compound work.

Well and good! Every post I read on every thread in this controversy, no one is denying God's amazing grace. Really there are no words to describe this grace - it has to be known and experienced. And there is nothing that abounds more than being a sinner who is under death, living a miserable life, going to knowing God's grace and God saving that person as he repents of his sin and turns to God.

However, this explanation in the meme above misses too many important points in Romans 5:20-21, to say nothing of 18-21, and 1-21. Ok, and all of Romans! (theBible?)

So what is Romans about? It is a theological treatise that Paul wrote to the Romans. It is as close to a systematic theology as the early church had. It just doesn't talk about ONE WORD in ONE VERSE. Instead, the book opens with an explanation of sin. See Romans 1, 2, 3!

For that matter just read the chapter in question - Romans 5. For that matter, just read Romans 5:20-21 as I have posted above in English and Greek.)

Because this passage is NOT ABOUT US! It is about the work Christ came to do. To only emphasize one word - "abounding exceedingly," is appalling hermeneutics. We are NEVER to make a doctrine out of one verse, let alone a word which is basically a hapax legomena (appears only one time - but then, we have the same issue with authentic in 1 Tim. 2:12, don't we?) Instead we need to look at words like "death," and "sin" in Romans 5:12 earlier, as well as 5:21. Why? Because the gospel is not just about the end result of justification (Romans 5:1) but also about what we are saved from. "Sin" and death."

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[a] because all sinned—" Romans 5:12

So to claim that pulling a word out of context, a word (ὑπερπερίσσευω) which only appears here and in 2 Cor. 7:4, (in a different context) is not unbalanced theologically is to point to exactly the crux of the debate that most of us have been trying to make to hyper grace believers for months now. (Ok, I went back to Biblical Christianity a bit later than some others, have been swayed by a very unbalanced reading of the situation in this forum.)

(And to claim it is "unbalanced" to support your unbalanced view is just another trick to persuade the young Christians of the lie of this whole theology. What a way to twist words as usual by the hyper grace crowd!)

So yes, hyper grace, the movement originating from Joseph Prince and proselytized by his devotees is unbalanced! And unbalanced meaning - misses too many essential soteriological biblical components of salvation !

One of the better and new commentaries, The New International Greek Testament Commentary NIGTC: The Epistle to the Romans by Richard N. Longnecker, a world renowned Greek scholar says the following things about the theology of Romans 5:20-21. It is long, but it is important, because we do need a balanced view of Scripture. We do NOT need to emphasize one word, ὑπερπερίσσευω, at the expense of the other words in this passage and the entire rest of the Bible. This whole chapter is on justification, not sanctification. And it is not about us, but rather the incredible grace of God in Christ Jesus, who died on our behalf that we might be made righteous in him.

"1. The "dark side" of every person's life has to do with "sin," "death," and being under "divine condemnation." There are the mocking sectors that permeate every facet of human experience and invade every corner of human consciousness. They are in fact, the major factors that constitute the basic components of the universal "human predicament" and so in Paul's proclamation of the Christian gospel to pagan Gentiles in the Greco-Roman world, he struck a responsive chord in the hearts and minds of many of his spiritually sensitive hearers.

2. At the heart of the Christian gospel are such vitally important matters as "God's grace," "righteousness as a gift from God," Jesus' "one principle act of righteousness" (i.e. his death on the cross), and the provisions of "life," "the righteousness of life" and "eternal life" that are offered to all people. Ignore or minimize these central features of the Christian proclamation, and one has "no gospel" and that is, no "good news" at all, but only moral platitudes or psychological analyses of the human situation.

3. The focal point of Paul's proclamation in this period of the eschatological "now" is on "the obedience" of Jesus
Christ, as declared in 5:19 and this lies at the heart of the "Christian hymn" in Phil. 2:6-11. [All about Jesus!!] It appears in cognate forms in Romans both in the development of his teaching on "the faithfulness" of Jesus Christ, and his use of the titles "Son" and "Son of God."

4. The law, (whether a so-called natural law, or the Mosaic law) has no part in bringing about "life," "righteousness" or "eternal life" - other than revealing sin, and because of people's perverted response to God in their increased knowledge of sin, actually increasing sin. [Paul said it, not me or the commentator - "Now the law came in to increase the trespass," 5:20]

5. The universalism of God's grace, which has been made effective "through Jesus Christ our Lord," has to do with what God has provided on behalf of all people. [Another meaning for "huper" - on behalf of in the genitive!] It does not, however, as seen in the future tense ("will be") of the verbs (both expressed and implied) in 5:18-19, and the subjective mood (may" or "might") of the verse in 5:21 assure inevitability, but rather speaks of what God has graciously provided, to which people need to respond positively."

(NIGTC: Romans 600-601)


My take on it:

1. Rather than applying this to word "abounding exceedingly" (ὑπερπερίσσευω) to the totality of our Christian walk, in fact, the extremely low frequency word is specifically talking about the grace as applied to salvation. And Paul does not use it when referring to sanctification in the following chapters of Romans. (See 8 especially!)

Salvation is a miracle of God, there is no doubt about it. We all need to remember what God has done for us! Which brings us to:

2. The hyper grace phenomena tends to totally ignore sin! Because Romans 5:21 is about justification, and takes us from our state before we were saved, to our state once we have repented of our sins and believed - and that is positional righteousness. This verse never says we can forget about sin. It is a verse which is confirmed in the rest of Romans and the Bible - that sin is a big deal, but thank God, Jesus Christ beat it at the cross.

So I am already hearing the cries of "But we never said we don't sin" but the definition of sin and repentance in hyper grace theology, (to use the term loosely) has changed so badly as to be unrecognizable in the gospel according to JP.

Sin is PART OF THE GOSPEL! It is the bad part, the balancing part. We simply need to acknowledge that sin is ongoing in our lives, and we need the Holy Spirit to convict us of our disobedience. Paul knew the importance of being obedient to God.

3. By underemphasizing OBEDIENCE, the hyper grace movement has again, lost Biblical Christianity. We need to be obedient to Christ. That needs to be emphasized on a daily basis. It is too easy for our human flesh to slide backwards if we are not reminded of who Christ is in our prayers, reading the word of God and preaching in our fellowships. (Not saying we are going to lose our salvation, but who wants to live a life far from God?)

"For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything" 2 Cor. 2:9

"What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed," Romans 6:15-17

So the entire BALANCED gospel message is:

sin (and death) -->repentance --> grace abounding! --> justification-->obedience (eternal life!)

If you take "grace abounding exceedingly out of this equation, as found in Romans 5:21, then you are not preaching or teaching God's gospel, but a false one! You are teaching an incredibly out-of-context theology.

So yes, again, hyper grace is unbalanced in every way. But that is never to deny the grace of God! And hyper grace is a coined term, which is unbalanced not because of the work of Christ is so great, but because of the way hyper grace teachers and proselytizers pull the word out of context.

PS And don't bother quoting Romans 5:20 again to me, or misusing that poor word "ὑπερπερίσσευω" to encompass all of our Christian walk, instead of seeing it in conjunction with the entire gospel of repentance from sin and justification by faith in Christ to our journey of sanctification or being made holy through the power of the Holy Spirit.

PPS Oh yes, please stop copying and pasting and putting up these simple minded memes. Everyone needs to discuss the Bible in their own words. Yes, you can quote a source, for sure, but make the topic of your post one which comes from the Bible and your own heart, and experience. I know everyone would grow so much more, if they stuck to reading their Bible, instead of watching questionable internet videos from false prophets and teachers.

You just can't go wrong reading and relying on the Bible - English or Greek!

Angela ..this has nothing to do with Joseph Prince - this is just malice as he is and was not mentioned in my post at all.

The false accusation that this so-called hyper grace tends to totally ignore sin is completely bias and has no truth in it whatsoever.

I talk about the righteousness of God in Christ to us believers constantly and anyone that is honest will testify to this truth.

And to say that we underemphasize obedience is another falsehood. Here is what I have posted many times about obedience and yet you keep mis-representing the truth of what is being said.

Quote:

Obedience in the New Covenant:

In loving God and others as Jesus says is the greatest commandment in the law in relation to obedience.

Obedience to me is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man. It is not the root. It's the love of God and the life of Christ manifesting Himself in and through us to a hurt and dying world and to our fellow brethren.

It is not necessarily something "we do to be" but stems from something we "already are now" in Him and so we "do love" as we grow in our awareness of His love for us.

We obey our Lord and Father because we know Him and trust in His character and obedience is not a set of rules that we follow, but a natural flow of the life of God in us built on a love-trust relationship. When you know the love of God for us we will obey Him naturally and effortlessly.

When our minds are renewed to the truth that is in Christ - we obey from our hearts effortlessly. It's a fruit of being in Christ.

I maintain that obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man that is created in Christ. When we teach the grace of God this enables us to bear His fruit in and through us to reflect the true kingdom of the love and grace of God to a hurt and dying world.

Teach and preach who believers are in Christ because we are in union in one spirit with the Lord Jesus and they will "awake to righteousness" that is in them because they are a new creation in Him and sin not and walk in the good works that God has prepared for them.

Unquote:

Angela - you are allowed to have any opinion you want just like everyone else in the body of Christ. If you think the grace a lot of us teach is unbalanced - that is your right to think so.

And if those "simple minded memes" offend you - don't look at them. You do not have the authority to dictate to others what to do no matter what courses you may be taking in Greek or Hebrew or any other language.

And if people that don't agree with everything you believe - and you want to slander them as false teachers and prophets - that is between you and the Lord.

In the meantime there are literally thousands of people giving testimonies of how the Lord has worked mightily in their lives to free them from all kinds of things because of the message of the abundance of the grace of God for them.

In do post mostly from the bible and from my heart as well and if you can't see that - then you'll just have to live with what is happening.

Again...your opinion is just as valuable as everyone else's in the body of Christ. Bless you and I hope your studies go well and that your family is being blessed by the faithfulness of our Lord. He is mighty to save.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[notuptome]

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

How did you come to Jesus? Did you just decide one day to accept Christ? Did you come under great conviction about your sin and Gods certain judgment upon sin? Did the weight of your sin press down upon you until you were sure you would perish? Upon hearing Gods word did you come to understand that you really deserved to be condemned for all eternity?

You see our perception of Gods grace is correctly formed when we see ourselves as God sees us. We understand grace when we understand the severity of the penalty of sin. The wages of sin are death. We then can appreciate the gift of God which is eternal life.

When God reveals to you how lost you are and how hopeless your situation and that correction is beyond your power well then you see how merciful God is in saving you. Repentance and obedience take their natural place when grace has it's proper position in the soul.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Some good points, and I respect your approach and attitude. I think you are trying to get both sides to see that we agree on justification, but that our disagreement on sanctification is not a "salvation" issue.

But I think that my understanding is not just so simple as to say that sanctification is not "essential for salvation" or that it is a "fruit of having received salvation". If a person begins with a OSAS and hyper-grace perspective, in which the initial act of justification is all determinative - that is - it seals final destiny - then of course sanctification is not essential and is a "fruit".


I might use the same language and say sanctification is a fruit of salvation, but I mean something different. When I am born again and changed at my spirit level (crucified and buried and risen again with Christ) then I receive the Holy Spirit. I have indeed been saved, but this is only the very beginning of the race. As God continues to pour his grace into my life, and as I continue to respond in faith, and as this faith allows God to produce good works in my life, sanctification is in process. It is not just the initial moment that the Holy Spirit enters my heart that saves me, but that fact that He abides in me, this is what assures my salvation at this moment in time. So when I say that sanctification is "essential" to salvation, I don't mean works save me, but I do mean that my salvation is not based only upon the initial act of justification, but upon the ongoing grace of Jesus Christ in my life.\
Now - I think I just described "hyper-grace" - but not what is usually meant by "hyper-grace" on this site!

I think you will now be attacked also as being "hyper grace" because you have said nothing different than those who are strongly attacked.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

but if God has declared you righteous because of the righteousness of Christ, how can He then declare you unrighteous? He would be going back on the standing He has given you.

I have been enjoying your posts for a few days here! Nice to meet you.
I am not a nitpicker, I promise, but...this seems an important frogs hair to me.
God did not declare any man righteous because of the righteousness of Christ.
It is because of our faith - because we believe what God says concerning Christ.
Is that too nitpicky? I think it's important, because not remaining/abiding in that trust and belief is very dangerous.
The Galatians were in danger.
They were led astray to begin trying to finish building with a different foundation than the one they began with.
This is a common problem and it is a danger, as it is portrayed in revelation as having left your first love, not doing the works you did at first but doing different works with different building material.

I don't ever know if I've made myself clear or just been confusing.

 

[UnderGrace]

In the meantime there are literally thousands of people giving testimonies of how the Lord has worked mightily in their lives to free them from all kinds of things because of the message of the abundance of the grace of God for them.

Ultimately it is about a deeper understanding and belief of God's grace. People want to partake it is there for them.

My understanding is deeper and I am praise God every day that the situations that pushed me to dig deeper occurred so that I could be released from a theology which limited God to one of belief.

We minimize the love of God and hold onto condemnation as though as though grace was a one time event never to be seen again in the life of the believer.

He offers His Love and you say no because it may cause me to sin more!! How strange is that thinking.

It is NOT a one time event.... it is instead abundant and abounding....... Jesus Himself told us this many times.

Who would argue against a fuller deeper relationship?

 

[LaurenTM]

well at least the thread didn't die

I see some are still earnestly contending for their faith

somewhere, in all of it, is the faith...that is the one I want to contend for

 

[PeterJens]

Angela ..this has nothing to do with Joseph Prince - this is just malice as he is and was not mentioned in my post at all.

What JP teaches is important as he is seen as a core teacher of this new theology.
To say someone has malice, is a slander, unless you have some real foundation for
such an accusation.

The theological point Angela is putting forward is scripturally a full response, with
authority and power. If the answer is just repeating HG concepts and denial, answers
nothing.

The core disagreement is about forgiving future sin. I am still so surprised that when
this very topic was raised people were happy to follow this through with the consistent
theology. On this concept, changing repentance and confession of sin rests.

Nothing in scripture implies sin is acceptable except if followed by a repentant heart and
confession and obedience to righteousness.

 

[UnderGrace]

In the meantime there are literally thousands of people giving testimonies of how the Lord has worked mightily in their lives to free them from all kinds of things because of the message of the abundance of the grace of God for them.

What I wanted to say and for some reason went off on a tangent is ...Thank you G777 for sharing this. I believe this is absolutely true!!!

 

[LaurenTM]

But nor does that mean to teach that we can sin no more, and that's one of the main problems I have with the Hyper-Grace doctrine.

did you read my op?

there are so many threads on the controversy already. if you did not read the op, would you mind reading it and then tell me what you think?

thanks

sorry...above is a quote from DP

 

[LaurenTM]

I think yinz might be misunderstanding me. Grace does NOT give us a right to sin. By the grace of God we can be free from the slavery of sin by the work of Christ on the cross. If we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior our sins are forgiven by the grace of God but, again, this does not give us the right to keep on sinning.

If we say we have accepted Christ yet continue to willfully sin have we truly acepted Christ. By the blood of Christ we are free from the bondage of sin.

Jesus is already Lord..not to confuse the issue (like that has not already happened) but we accept Jesus as our Savior...He is already Lord. we cannot MAKE Him Lord

one day, EVERY knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord...everyone

I have no contention wit what you state really...and that is my point actually


it is folly to insist that there are different kinds of grace and some kinds make you think you have freedom to sin

this continual whining (I don't mean you) about hyper grace has become somewhat of a cause celebre for some. they think they are on the cutting edge of discernment. read the Bible. the devil has always tried to add to grace or make grace seem to be something it is not

 

[LaurenTM]

I love it.

Jesus died to free us from the penalty of the law.... but if you sin after becoming a Christian, you are right back under the law... just as though He had never come to Earth, and it is up to you to again bring yet another sacrifice of woeful repentance to the alter to be forgiven what Jesus' death already forgave you for. ....... and then do it all over again next week... and the day after that... and three days later, and forever. Gotta keep yourself forgiven.

Same ol' system the Jews had.

I spent several hours researching and then developed the op and tried to put into a shortened form what I was seeing


what we have here, is the chicken little scenario

no more

no less

I'm not even going to bother to respond more than I have, because people are not thinking; they are reacting

on both sides

too bad my dad is no longer alive. we could have had a really good and deep conversation with consideration of what the other person was saying. I really miss that

thankfully my husband has the same understanding of grace as is supported by the Bible

 

[LaurenTM]

[FONT=&quot]PPS Oh yes, please stop copying and pasting and putting up these simple minded memes. Everyone needs to discuss the Bible in their own words. Yes, you can quote a source, for sure, but make the topic of your post one which comes from the Bible and your own heart, and experience. I know everyone would grow so much more, if they stuck to reading their Bible, instead of watching questionable internet videos from false prophets and teachers.[/FONT]

false is different things to different people apparently

 

[LaurenTM]

here is an excerpt from MY op...what I was hoping to discuss:


Calling the sinful acts of people who have turned their backs on the gospel and have accepted a lie, HYPER GRACE is utter nonsense.

Let's call it what it is. IT IS SIN.

If a person depends on others for their relationship with God, sooner or later they are going to crash and burn. It's a law of God. God says 'cursed are those who trust in flesh and make it their strength.

Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5

If your relationship with God is THROUGH someone else, YOU DON'T HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD! so stop saying that you do! Throughout scripture, God begs...yes, literally begs...people to put their trust IN HIM.

Heresy hunters are a fact of life now and the web has given rise to more self proclaimed experts and 'Bible teachers' and self named prophets than the world has ever seen or God has ever called.

I have seen way too much on these forums concerning hyper grace and have been labelled hyper grace myself by people who are shooting in the dark at anything that they think moves.


read the op...it's not a challenge to another arguement

 

[LaurenTM]

so, here we go again...have at it

pick it apart

please tell me how sinful this is

article by Jeremy White


Introduction:
In recent times, a label has surfaced regarding what some view as a “dangerous” or “imbalanced” teaching of the grace of God. “Hyper-Grace” is now a term being used to suggest that there are some folks (such as myself) who “take God’s grace too far” and in so doing either ignore or minimize other significant teachings of the Bible.


What follows is an attempt to address a few of the most common “warnings” some have offered regarding those of us who make much of the finished work of Christ.


Objection #1: The Hyper-Grace Gospel is Unbiblical
For starters, you may be shocked to discover that “hyper-grace” is really the only adequate description for grace in the first place, according to the Bible. For example, when Paul wrote in Romans 5:20 that “…where sin increased, grace increased all the more” he was literally referring to God’s grace as “hyper.”


The Greek term for the phrase “increased all the more” (NIV) is huper-perisseuo which literally means “super-abounded.” Hyper is simply a transliteration of the prefix “huper” in Greek and means “above and beyond” in scope or quality. The term “perisseuo” refers to that which is “in far excess of what might be expected, superfluous or gratuitous.”


So in Paul’s description of God’s amazing grace, he is literally saying that because of the abundance of sin in this world, God’s grace has super-abounded in order to rescue us from sin! Paul literally describes God’s grace as HYPER in this passage. It is super-abundant and unfathomably plentiful and powerful. In fact, a few verses later Paul would state that the very reason sin is no longer our master is because we are no longer under law, but under this hyper-abounding grace (Rom. 6:14)!


If this is what one means by “hyper-grace,” then count me in as one of the “grace-heretics!” It is a label that was applied to both Paul and Jesus by the Pharisees of their day, so I am more than happy to wear it in ours. As the late scholar D. Martin Lloyd-Jones famously pointed out (andthis is my paraphrase), "If people do not sometimes misunderstand and falsely accuse you of being soft-on-sin or against God’s law, you are not preaching the real gospel!"

 

[Angela53510]

here is an excerpt from MY op...what I was hoping to discuss:


Calling the sinful acts of people who have turned their backs on the gospel and have accepted a lie, HYPER GRACE is utter nonsense.

Let's call it what it is. IT IS SIN.

If a person depends on others for their relationship with God, sooner or later they are going to crash and burn. It's a law of God. God says 'cursed are those who trust in flesh and make it their strength.

Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5

If your relationship with God is THROUGH someone else, YOU DON'T HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD! so stop saying that you do! Throughout scripture, God begs...yes, literally begs...people to put their trust IN HIM.

Heresy hunters are a fact of life now and the web has given rise to more self proclaimed experts and 'Bible teachers' and self named prophets than the world has ever seen or God has ever called.

I have seen way too much on these forums concerning hyper grace and have been labelled hyper grace myself by people who are shooting in the dark at anything that they think moves.


read the op...it's not a challenge to another arguement

I read the OP! But it was totally abductedby the time I reached page 5. Since I had not posted until then (my first post actually appearing on page 6) I am not responsible for this. But it does show you what some people will go to in order to push their doctrines, and twisting literally every thing from the Bible to people's words, doesn't it?

I only use the term "hypergrace" because the hypergrace people told me how great it is. And that is the word THEY use. And I got sucked into it for months, until I realized it was missing a large part of the Biblical and historical gospel. (Please, Grace777, do not bring out your hackneyed phrase about relating from your "religious traditions." Especially when some of us spend our time in the Bible and not reading links to Escape to Reality or sermons by Joseph Prince every day.)

I do agree, if the point of your OP, Lauren, that we cannot have a relationship through anyone else to God. That isn't just internet preachers, but spouses, pastors, or anyone else. We need to develop and cultivate that relationship through prayer, reading and meditating on the Word of God, and being right with God each day - in other words, confessing our sin, which separates us from God.

"2 but your iniquities have made a separation
between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
so that he does not hear."Isa. 59:2

I am not saying everyone will hear God's voice booming in their ears, but God does communicate in many ways with those who know him. And this does get back to eternal security. God saves us by his grace, as he enables us to repent and turn to him. BUT, sometimes people are just do moved by emotion or other things, and they are not really walking with God. So then, it appears like they have fallen away from God.

But they never really were among us! And yes to having a deep relationship with Jesus! That is the only right way for anyone to live!

 

[Cee]

Hyper grace doesn't teach we can't sin anymore. It teaches that it's contrary to our new creation nature in Christ. We know people who are in Christ CAN sin, but the focus of Scripture is why would you want to? The focus is on walking in newness of life now that we are dead to sin.

Romans 6:1 1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

What does newness of life mean to you? To me it means, the old is gone, the new is here...

2 Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

What is the old that has gone? Us. What is the new that is here? Us in Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

(snip)

(Please, Grace777, do not bring out your hackneyed phrase about relating from your "religious traditions." Especially when some of us spend our time in the Bible and not reading links to Escape to Reality or sermons by Joseph Prince every day.)

!

Well Angela, to keep the malice and slander down to a minimum if you are interested in the truth - I hardly listen to Joseph Prince ( I listen to over a hundred different teachers from many denominations and the amount of time I have listened to Prince would be very small in comparison ) - as I only use his videos from time to time because he has short ones which sometimes address directly a subject.

In truth I post other teacher's videos more then JP - perhaps it's malice towards him that highlights it in your mind more?

The same goes for the Escape to Reality website. I like to use that sometimes when a subject comes up because it tackles obscure scriptures and also answers the mis-understandings that some spread about believing in God's grace. It also has at the bottom a place where others have asked legitimate questions and sometimes I myself have gained more insight by this feature.'

If these offend you = then don't listen to them. I enjoy grace-based teachings and since I have been on CC I have had many Pm-ing me to thank me for the videos and websites that have helped them to grow in the Lord and to see the marvelous grace and love that our Lord has for them.

I myself study the scriptures all the time despite your attempt to malign my biblical habits. In this last bout of studying I have averaged 8 hours a day for the last 4 years. I just say that so that you can now perhaps start speaking with some more understanding.

Thank you as you consider what I have written. Perhaps we should spend more time lifting up the Lord Jesus Christ so that we can keep our eyes on Him and all grow up in Him - established in His wondrous grace and love for us.

 

[Cee]

At its core hyper-grace focuses on grace (His ability) to empower us (and impute desire) to follow Christ vs focusing on transforming ourselves to follow Christ.

Phil 2:13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

We must remember that to Paul perverting the grace of God was adding more demands to receiving righteousness not less.

Galatians 1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by[SUP]a[/SUP] the flesh? 4Did you suffer[SUP]b[/SUP] so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Notice the pattern, it begins with Him, His Spirit, His ability, we hear Him, And we believe Him.

The proper idea being laid out is we have a hearing ear to Him. And we come into obedience to His word.

According to Gal 3:6, "Believing God = Righteousness".

We don't work for righteousness, we live from it (or in it).

This is the newness of life "in Christ".