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The apocrypha (deuterocanon) apparently were documented by scribes at a point when no prophet was active to insert teaching or rebuke. This makes them history only and not doctrine (inspired). Matt Slick is not the issue other than that he questions some content of the deuterocanon, seemingly without assent that it is history-only or even valid history for that matter.
Matt is a modern day Pharisee and like Saul would not like to see the carry forward of past sins (love keeps no record of wrongs), but as a Pharisee has to come to grips with 'where sin abounded, grace abounded more - what shall we say then, shall we continue in [pharisaical] sin? God forbid! ' ... Just saying there may be a bias from the office or position of a Pharisee in regards to thematic corruption in the church. I know and appreciate he has a healthy disdain for the RCC, and in terms of them using the deuterocanon as doctrine certainly should be an issue.
Matt is a modern day Pharisee and like Saul would not like to see the carry forward of past sins (love keeps no record of wrongs), but as a Pharisee has to come to grips with 'where sin abounded, grace abounded more - what shall we say then, shall we continue in [pharisaical] sin? God forbid! ' ... Just saying there may be a bias from the office or position of a Pharisee in regards to thematic corruption in the church. I know and appreciate he has a healthy disdain for the RCC, and in terms of them using the deuterocanon as doctrine certainly should be an issue.
R
The apocrypha was written during the dark ages between Malachi and the new testament. It is a good reference for the historical aspect. The Apocrypha was not inspired by the Holy Spirit as the bible is, that being stated it does not belong in our bible.
As I understand the RCC put the apocrypha in to the new translations of the bible and stated that it was inspired of God. If you read the apocrypha there are parts of it that support roman catholic doctrine, which contradicts the true Holy Spirit inspired books of the bible, such as baptizing as a baby so they do not go to hell and purgatory.
God Bless,
As I understand the RCC put the apocrypha in to the new translations of the bible and stated that it was inspired of God. If you read the apocrypha there are parts of it that support roman catholic doctrine, which contradicts the true Holy Spirit inspired books of the bible, such as baptizing as a baby so they do not go to hell and purgatory.
God Bless,
J
the issue has never been aboout divine inspiration. lets take a look at a short history of these books.
300 - 250 bc (about) the greek Septuagint was written which contained most of (the ones in question) the apocrypha. the book was widely used, no one had a problem with it. it was not until Jesus came, taught, ascended and His teachings started to spread, now all of a sudden we have the council of Jamnia, 90AD a council lead by pharisees, the same guys John the baptist called a den of vipers, and for some reason they all of a sudden had issues with the books they never had issues with before.
the essenes, a monastic sect of Jews that lived in the desert because they wanted no part of the corruption in Jerusalem had no problem with these books.
the next big issue comes when the protestants wanted to separate from Catholics. they didnt want the books cause they didnt like the doctrines they supported so they called them non inspired which makes it sound like they are anti christian which if they were they would have never been included in the first place.
Jesus has many teachings that have parallel teachings in these books, and only those books. hard to believe He would do that with books He didnt want us to read.
you can scream all day whether the books are inspired or not but it dont take a rocket scientist to see that the real issues had to do with Jews, Catholics and Protestants using them to separate themselves from one another.
300 - 250 bc (about) the greek Septuagint was written which contained most of (the ones in question) the apocrypha. the book was widely used, no one had a problem with it. it was not until Jesus came, taught, ascended and His teachings started to spread, now all of a sudden we have the council of Jamnia, 90AD a council lead by pharisees, the same guys John the baptist called a den of vipers, and for some reason they all of a sudden had issues with the books they never had issues with before.
the essenes, a monastic sect of Jews that lived in the desert because they wanted no part of the corruption in Jerusalem had no problem with these books.
the next big issue comes when the protestants wanted to separate from Catholics. they didnt want the books cause they didnt like the doctrines they supported so they called them non inspired which makes it sound like they are anti christian which if they were they would have never been included in the first place.
Jesus has many teachings that have parallel teachings in these books, and only those books. hard to believe He would do that with books He didnt want us to read.
you can scream all day whether the books are inspired or not but it dont take a rocket scientist to see that the real issues had to do with Jews, Catholics and Protestants using them to separate themselves from one another.
R
Can you give us some examples of what the Lord taught things that paralleled the apocrypha?
Here are a few verses you should look at from the apocrypha:
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:39-46)
Can you show me where we are to pray for the dead and how that fits in with all of the bible? also how we can pray someones sins away after they die?
Ecclesiasticus 25:24 From a woman sin had its beginning. Because of her we all die.
I believe it was because of Adam that we are all sinners the bible was very clear on that
Here are a few verses you should look at from the apocrypha:
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:39-46)
Can you show me where we are to pray for the dead and how that fits in with all of the bible? also how we can pray someones sins away after they die?
Ecclesiasticus 25:24 From a woman sin had its beginning. Because of her we all die.
I believe it was because of Adam that we are all sinners the bible was very clear on that
The word "dead" in that is metaphorical/talking in similarity. You may look at a part of a Bible below and judge.
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, by grace you are saved.
1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, by grace you are saved.
1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
R
A good point, but the catholics believe once you die everybody enters purgatory and they must be prayed out of purgatory to enter into heaven. That was all taken out of the apocrypha.
Read Romans 5:12/14 Through Adam sin was passed on. It is the male that passes the blood line, that is why the Lord Jesus Christ had to be born of a virgin so He would not be corrupted.
Read Romans 5:12/14 Through Adam sin was passed on. It is the male that passes the blood line, that is why the Lord Jesus Christ had to be born of a virgin so He would not be corrupted.
You may agree that someone misinterpreting a part doesn't make it false.
I'm not reviling you, are you thinking there is a contradiction in the Word of God ?
1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
G444 ἄνθρωπος anthrōpos
Thayer Definition:
1) a human being, whether male or female
1a) generically, to include all human individuals
Romans 5:12
Wherefore,G1223 G5124 asG5618 byG1223 oneG1520 manG444 sinG266 enteredG1525 intoG1519 theG3588 world,G2889 andG2532 deathG2288 byG1223 sin;G266 andG2532 soG3779 deathG2288 passedG1330 uponG1519 allG3956 men,G444 forG1909 thatG3739 allG3956 have sinned:G264
I'm not reviling you, are you thinking there is a contradiction in the Word of God ?
1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
G444 ἄνθρωπος anthrōpos
Thayer Definition:
1) a human being, whether male or female
1a) generically, to include all human individuals
Romans 5:12
Wherefore,G1223 G5124 asG5618 byG1223 oneG1520 manG444 sinG266 enteredG1525 intoG1519 theG3588 world,G2889 andG2532 deathG2288 byG1223 sin;G266 andG2532 soG3779 deathG2288 passedG1330 uponG1519 allG3956 men,G444 forG1909 thatG3739 allG3956 have sinned:G264
R
If you also read Romans 5:14 it states death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression so number 1 of Thayers definition becomes man.
I am not stating that there is a contradiction in the bible as you seem to be indicating. Eve also was in transgression but that is not how transgression/sin got passed.
I am not stating that there is a contradiction in the bible as you seem to be indicating. Eve also was in transgression but that is not how transgression/sin got passed.
There is no contradiction.
Eve was deceived. Adam was present when she was deceived, and did nothing to correct her.
Instead of correcting her and holding fast to what God told him, Adam went along with the deception, even though he knew exactly what it was that God told him. Adam was not deceived, he was disobedient. This does make Adam a sinner too though, Th0mas. Thus it was Adam's transgression that caused the fall. Notice how the eyes of Eve were not opened until Adam ate of the fruit.
The same thing happened with Ahab and Jezebel. God called Ahab the wickedest king simply because he allowed Jezebel to bring in all the false worship of the false gods from the lands around them.
Eve was deceived. Adam was present when she was deceived, and did nothing to correct her.
Instead of correcting her and holding fast to what God told him, Adam went along with the deception, even though he knew exactly what it was that God told him. Adam was not deceived, he was disobedient. This does make Adam a sinner too though, Th0mas. Thus it was Adam's transgression that caused the fall. Notice how the eyes of Eve were not opened until Adam ate of the fruit.
The same thing happened with Ahab and Jezebel. God called Ahab the wickedest king simply because he allowed Jezebel to bring in all the false worship of the false gods from the lands around them.
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You may judge that it depends partly on which translation a person trusts, you may look at "time of Adam" below.
Romans 5:14 NIV
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
Do you agree "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." 1 Timothy 2:14 ?
Romans 5:14 NIV
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
Do you agree "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." 1 Timothy 2:14 ?
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R
Yes Adam was not deceived he was directly disobedient knowing that he was disobeying God. That still does not change the fact that sin was passed through Adam and not Eve. The NIV is the only version I have seen that added from the time of Adam. The versions I have on hand are the ESV,KJV,KJV1611,MKJV,and the Textus Receptus. I do not want this thread to be hijacked because of this statement (although it is going to happen unfortunately) so if you want e-mail me if you would like and I will tell you why I will not use a NIV bible. Although I will not condemn anyone who does use a NIV.
God Bless,
God Bless,
J
post #36 - tree and fruits
Matt.. 7:12 (golden rule)
[SUP]12 [/SUP][SUP](A)[/SUP]“Do for others what you want them to do for you: this is the meaning of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets.
Tobit 4:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP][SUP](A)[/SUP]Never do to anyone else anything that you would not want someone to do to you.
Matthew 22:23 28 (7 brothers)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]That same day the Sadducees,[SUP](B)[/SUP] who say there is no resurrection,[SUP](C)[/SUP] came to him with a question. [SUP]24 [/SUP]“Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him.[SUP](D)[/SUP] [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Finally, the woman died. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
Tobit 3:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Sarah had been married seven times, but the evil demon, Asmodeus, killed each husband before the marriage could be consummated. The servant woman said to Sarah,
You husband killer! Look at you! You've already had seven husbands, but not one of them lived long enough to give you a son.
a few other points of interest:
Joshua 10:13
So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.
2 Samuel 1:18
and he told them to teach the sons of Judah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the book of Jashar.
Colossians 4:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read[SUP](AD)[/SUP] in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.
Joshua and Samuel both tell us if we want to learn more, read Jashar. in Colossians Paul instructs the assembly to read epistle of laodicea. why would inspired word tell us to go read uninspired word?
will get back to you on praying for the dead, need to take a break.
Matt.. 7:12 (golden rule)
[SUP]12 [/SUP][SUP](A)[/SUP]“Do for others what you want them to do for you: this is the meaning of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets.
Tobit 4:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP][SUP](A)[/SUP]Never do to anyone else anything that you would not want someone to do to you.
Matthew 22:23 28 (7 brothers)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]That same day the Sadducees,[SUP](B)[/SUP] who say there is no resurrection,[SUP](C)[/SUP] came to him with a question. [SUP]24 [/SUP]“Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him.[SUP](D)[/SUP] [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Finally, the woman died. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
Tobit 3:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Sarah had been married seven times, but the evil demon, Asmodeus, killed each husband before the marriage could be consummated. The servant woman said to Sarah,
You husband killer! Look at you! You've already had seven husbands, but not one of them lived long enough to give you a son.
a few other points of interest:
Joshua 10:13
So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.
2 Samuel 1:18
and he told them to teach the sons of Judah the song of the bow; behold, it is written in the book of Jashar.
Colossians 4:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read[SUP](AD)[/SUP] in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.
Joshua and Samuel both tell us if we want to learn more, read Jashar. in Colossians Paul instructs the assembly to read epistle of laodicea. why would inspired word tell us to go read uninspired word?
will get back to you on praying for the dead, need to take a break.
R
Jashar is not part of the Apocrypha how would they be referring to a book that has not been written yet. The Apocrypha was wrote during the dark ages between Malachi and the new testament.
Can you show evidence that the letter from Laodicea was referring to the Apocrypha. Paul wrote epistles to church's in different areas which were then copied by that church and circulated among other church's this is what Paul was talking about. Also Paul when he was formally known as Saul was a pharisee of pharisee's which would indicate from what I can gather (The Jew did not accept the Apocrypha as the Word of God) that he also would have rejected this writing.
Can you show evidence that the letter from Laodicea was referring to the Apocrypha. Paul wrote epistles to church's in different areas which were then copied by that church and circulated among other church's this is what Paul was talking about. Also Paul when he was formally known as Saul was a pharisee of pharisee's which would indicate from what I can gather (The Jew did not accept the Apocrypha as the Word of God) that he also would have rejected this writing.
If there is a need to say, I didn't say that it didn't make Adam a sinner.
This is not the time and place that I want to reveal if I judge Adam was not deceived or he was deceived, I have the answer and I want to test people as you may think is commanded in a part of a Bible below.
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
This is not the time and place that I want to reveal if I judge Adam was not deceived or he was deceived, I have the answer and I want to test people as you may think is commanded in a part of a Bible below.
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.