Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?
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I believe Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,the Creator of all things,and has no beginning according to His deity,but has a beginning according to His humanity.
I look at Jesus as a visible manifestation of God,the only way we can see the invisible God.
But this is the understanding I get from the Bible.
The Jews do not believe that there is a trinity,which some will say it is hidden in the Old Testament,but why would it be hidden,when they said that God is their Father,they knew of the Spirit,and believed that God would appear as the Messiah in the future.
Why did they not believe in a trinity,but only believe in one God,the Father,and God did not rebuke them for believing He is the only God,and no trinity.
If God the Father allowed the Jews to believe He is the only God,it would of been a lie if there was a trinity,but God allowed the Jews to believe there is only one God.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
The Bible states there is one God,the Father,which if there were a trinity,why did not the Bible say 3 persons in one God,but say only the Father is God.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Why is the Son called the everlasting Father.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Jesus told Phillip if he had seen Him,he has seen the Father,and it is the Father that dwells in Him,He does the works.
Joh 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven,for the disciples to not ask Him anything,but only ask the Father in His name,and He will do it.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
But here Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven,for the disciples to ask Him in His name,and He will do it.
Why would Jesus say do not ask Him,but only ask the Father,and in another place say ask Him and He will do it.
The Jews did not believe in a trinity,and God did not rebuke them for that,but allowed them to believe in one God.
In the New Testament it says there is one God,the Father.
The Son shall be called the everlasting Father.
If you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.
It seems like there is only one God,the Father.
Which I do not want to cause trouble,but that is the interpretation I get from the Bible,which seems like there is one God that created all things,was manifest in the flesh,and dwells in the saints.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
It seems like Jesus is not telling them to baptize in the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,but letting the disciples know that He is the one true God,that created all things,showed a visible manifestation of Himself,and dwells in the saints in spiritual form.
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luke said baptism in Jesus' name.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Peter said baptize in Jesus' name.
Jews,Gentiles,and Samaritans,were all baptized in Jesus' name in the book of Acts.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Only by the name of Jesus are we saved.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Whatever we do it is all in the name of Jesus.
Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
What am I supposed to think when it appears as if the Bible is saying there is one God,the Father,and Jesus is the visible manifestation of the Father,and the Jews never believed in a trinity,and God the Father was not angry with them for believing that.
I am only trying to understand,for it seems like there is only one God the Father,and Jesus is Creator for He is God manifest in flesh,showing a visible manifestation of Himself.
That is the understanding I get.
I look at Jesus as a visible manifestation of God,the only way we can see the invisible God.
But this is the understanding I get from the Bible.
The Jews do not believe that there is a trinity,which some will say it is hidden in the Old Testament,but why would it be hidden,when they said that God is their Father,they knew of the Spirit,and believed that God would appear as the Messiah in the future.
Why did they not believe in a trinity,but only believe in one God,the Father,and God did not rebuke them for believing He is the only God,and no trinity.
If God the Father allowed the Jews to believe He is the only God,it would of been a lie if there was a trinity,but God allowed the Jews to believe there is only one God.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
The Bible states there is one God,the Father,which if there were a trinity,why did not the Bible say 3 persons in one God,but say only the Father is God.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Why is the Son called the everlasting Father.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Jesus told Phillip if he had seen Him,he has seen the Father,and it is the Father that dwells in Him,He does the works.
Joh 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven,for the disciples to not ask Him anything,but only ask the Father in His name,and He will do it.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
But here Jesus said when He resurrects to heaven,for the disciples to ask Him in His name,and He will do it.
Why would Jesus say do not ask Him,but only ask the Father,and in another place say ask Him and He will do it.
The Jews did not believe in a trinity,and God did not rebuke them for that,but allowed them to believe in one God.
In the New Testament it says there is one God,the Father.
The Son shall be called the everlasting Father.
If you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.
It seems like there is only one God,the Father.
Which I do not want to cause trouble,but that is the interpretation I get from the Bible,which seems like there is one God that created all things,was manifest in the flesh,and dwells in the saints.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
It seems like Jesus is not telling them to baptize in the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,but letting the disciples know that He is the one true God,that created all things,showed a visible manifestation of Himself,and dwells in the saints in spiritual form.
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luke said baptism in Jesus' name.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Peter said baptize in Jesus' name.
Jews,Gentiles,and Samaritans,were all baptized in Jesus' name in the book of Acts.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Only by the name of Jesus are we saved.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Whatever we do it is all in the name of Jesus.
Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
What am I supposed to think when it appears as if the Bible is saying there is one God,the Father,and Jesus is the visible manifestation of the Father,and the Jews never believed in a trinity,and God the Father was not angry with them for believing that.
I am only trying to understand,for it seems like there is only one God the Father,and Jesus is Creator for He is God manifest in flesh,showing a visible manifestation of Himself.
That is the understanding I get.
J
Ok jaybird, let me ask you a question? It says at John 8:24, "I said therefore to you; that you shall die in your sins; for (or because) unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins." What did Jesus mean when He said that jaybird? And please read the context first. 
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. [SUP]29 [/SUP]And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.” [SUP]30 [/SUP]As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
who gave Jesus His authority? who sent Jesus?
God the Father but Jesus is still God he never denies his divinity hence why the Jewish leaders tried to stone him and also tried to run him off a cliff. If God was not triune, Jesus would have said so. He never does and neither does any book in the Old and New Testament. In fact, when you became a Christian the Holy Spirit begins to reside in you, God in you. Jesus also is there. In order to know God the Father, you have to go through the Son of God, Jesus Christ as well as through the leading of the Holy Spirit, who is God as well. God in three Persons, same nature, but different functions. God bless.
Jesus is not denying he is God in this verse, he is humbling himself to God the Father and also is setting an example for us Christians to follow to say not our will but God's will be this concept is also present in Proverbs 3. He is speaking as God but with a human nature when he says this. Keep in mind, when Jesus came to this Earth it was to do the will of the Father, which in heaven he already agreed with God the Father as well as the Holy Spirit, that he die on earth for our sins, that is why he came to Earth. Not just to be a good teacher, as the world wants him to be, but to show the world that he is the way and the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him as it says in John 14:6. John 3:16-19, if anyone does not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they are condemned already. Also, Jesus uses the word I Am, when he does this he is invoking the Hebrew word for God which is Yahweh (older versions say Jehovah, Jews say Hashem (The Name or do the G-d or Gd thing)). If Jesus is not God, then how come through the name of Jesus, demons were cast out, the lame could walk, the mute could speak,, etc? God bless.
When Jesus Christ said those words, "If it be possible let this cup pass, nevertheless not my will but yours be done?" He was functioning as a fully contingent human being. What do I mean? At John 1:14 it says, "And the word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." So how did He become a man?
We go to Philippians 2:5-8. The Philippian Christians were having problems from vs1-v4. They were only thinking of themselves by being selfish, conceited, and did not treat others better than themselves. (vs3,4). At vs5 the Apostle Paul says, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus. So what attitude did Jesus have?
Vs6, "who ALTHOUGH HE EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, (I will paraphrase what it means). In spite of the fact that Jesus Christ existed as God, He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped. Jesus as God did not demand and cling to His rights as God, but laid aside his power and glory by taking the FORM of a servant/human being. And He furthermore humbled Himself by actually going to the cross and dying for us.
So, when He is praying to His Father He is praying as a fully CONTINGENT HUMAN BEING which means every single thing He did was to please and do the will of the Father. This is what were suppose to do and that is why the Apostle Paul brought up Jesus Christ as our example to follow.
You also ask how are they the same? They are the same in "nature/essence" just like your the same in nature and essence as your parents. Remember, Jesus Christ is the "ONE AND ONLY" Son of God as in there are not others. That is what "only begotten" means at John 3:16. So Jesus has two natures, one of human being on His mothers side and one of Deity on His Fathers side. Any questions holly?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
We go to Philippians 2:5-8. The Philippian Christians were having problems from vs1-v4. They were only thinking of themselves by being selfish, conceited, and did not treat others better than themselves. (vs3,4). At vs5 the Apostle Paul says, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus. So what attitude did Jesus have?
Vs6, "who ALTHOUGH HE EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, (I will paraphrase what it means). In spite of the fact that Jesus Christ existed as God, He did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped. Jesus as God did not demand and cling to His rights as God, but laid aside his power and glory by taking the FORM of a servant/human being. And He furthermore humbled Himself by actually going to the cross and dying for us.
So, when He is praying to His Father He is praying as a fully CONTINGENT HUMAN BEING which means every single thing He did was to please and do the will of the Father. This is what were suppose to do and that is why the Apostle Paul brought up Jesus Christ as our example to follow.
You also ask how are they the same? They are the same in "nature/essence" just like your the same in nature and essence as your parents. Remember, Jesus Christ is the "ONE AND ONLY" Son of God as in there are not others. That is what "only begotten" means at John 3:16. So Jesus has two natures, one of human being on His mothers side and one of Deity on His Fathers side. Any questions holly?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
as man He received His authority from God, as God He gave Himself that authority. The Lord Jesus Christ was sent by the triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as a result of the eternal council, to redeem those chosen before the foundation of the world.
He and His Father always worked as ONE. They were in perfect coordination.
He and His Father always worked as ONE. They were in perfect coordination.
Oh boy holly! When you say, "I only do what my father says" are you and your father one person or two persons? And no, Jesus was "NOT" saying it about both of them at the same time because Jesus Christ became a man at Philippians 2:5-9 which I already explained to you but I see your avoiding me, why?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
H
I'm not avoiding you. You see it that way maybe bc your opinion is inflated? I actually didn't read your post.. I was talking about Jesus not myself.. Your response to me makes no sense bc Im not stupid enough to say nor think such a thing.
Oh boy holly! When you say, "I only do what my father says" are you and your father one person or two persons? And no, Jesus was "NOT" saying it about both of them at the same time because Jesus Christ became a man at Philippians 2:5-9 which I already explained to you but I see your avoiding me, why?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Indeed, the Jews were never scorned about identifying their God as a single person, which was the Father. However, they were scorned when they worshipped false Gods or turned from this one true God though. They were also delivered into the hands of their enemies when they turned from God. This understanding of a single (and not triune) God, was not just limited to the OT Jewish people though.
We can also see how even in the NT, this was the case too. A Jewish scribe, who would have been a single person, monotheistic Jew, came up to Jesus, asking Him about the greatest commandment of all. Here’s the conversation.
Mark 12:28-34 One of the scribes approached. When he heard them debating and saw that Jesus answered them well, he asked Him, “Which command is the most important of all?” “This is the most important,” Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, the Lord is One. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. “The second is: Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other command greater than these.” Then the scribe said to Him, “You are right, Teacher! You have correctly said that He is One, and there is no one else except Him. And to love Him with all your heart, with all your understanding, and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself, is far more important than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices.” When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.
In my personal opinion, I would think that if God was actually comprised of three persons in one, then why wouldn’t Jesus have let this single person God believing Jew know? Instead, Jesus not only lets this Jew walk away with the same understanding of who God was as before, but even congratulates him for his correct answer, saying “you are not far from the kingdom of God”. Notice how the Jewish scribe even identified God with the singular description as “He” is one…not “they” are one.
Yet, I feel that many overlook these passages because of verses like Genesis 1:26, in which we see God saying “let US make man in OUR image and OUR likeness”. Because of some peoples preconfigured doctrinal beliefs, they automatically “assume” this plurality to be identifying more than a single person as being God. However this can also simply mean that more than a single person existed with the Father prior to the creation of man.
If my son is sitting next to me, can’t I say “let US go to the store”? Does this really mean that we both have to be the same being? I personally believe that Jesus existed with the Father prior to the creation of man. This is why language like that is not a problem for me…neither is the reality of Mark 12:28-34.
We can also see how even in the NT, this was the case too. A Jewish scribe, who would have been a single person, monotheistic Jew, came up to Jesus, asking Him about the greatest commandment of all. Here’s the conversation.
Mark 12:28-34 One of the scribes approached. When he heard them debating and saw that Jesus answered them well, he asked Him, “Which command is the most important of all?” “This is the most important,” Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, the Lord is One. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. “The second is: Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other command greater than these.” Then the scribe said to Him, “You are right, Teacher! You have correctly said that He is One, and there is no one else except Him. And to love Him with all your heart, with all your understanding, and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself, is far more important than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices.” When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.
In my personal opinion, I would think that if God was actually comprised of three persons in one, then why wouldn’t Jesus have let this single person God believing Jew know? Instead, Jesus not only lets this Jew walk away with the same understanding of who God was as before, but even congratulates him for his correct answer, saying “you are not far from the kingdom of God”. Notice how the Jewish scribe even identified God with the singular description as “He” is one…not “they” are one.
Yet, I feel that many overlook these passages because of verses like Genesis 1:26, in which we see God saying “let US make man in OUR image and OUR likeness”. Because of some peoples preconfigured doctrinal beliefs, they automatically “assume” this plurality to be identifying more than a single person as being God. However this can also simply mean that more than a single person existed with the Father prior to the creation of man.
If my son is sitting next to me, can’t I say “let US go to the store”? Does this really mean that we both have to be the same being? I personally believe that Jesus existed with the Father prior to the creation of man. This is why language like that is not a problem for me…neither is the reality of Mark 12:28-34.
Excuse me sword you said the following in your very first sentence. "Indeed, the Jews were never scorned about identifying their God as a single person, which was the Father." Here is my question? Please tell me why at Genesis 1:1 where it says, "In the beginning "GOD" it refers to God as a Plural being? Secondly, and in line with my first question why do you "assume" that everytime you see the word "God" it has to refer to the Father?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Excuse me sword you said the following in your very first sentence. "Indeed, the Jews were never scorned about identifying their God as a single person, which was the Father." Here is my question? Please tell me why at Genesis 1:1 where it says, "In the beginning "GOD" it refers to God as a Plural being? Secondly, and in line with my first question why do you "assume" that everytime you see the word "God" it has to refer to the Father?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The word Elohim possesses a plural intensive syntax and is singular in meaning. In Hebrew, the suffix ים (im), mainly indicates a masculine plural. However with Elohim the construction is grammatically singular, (i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective) when referring to the God of Israel, but grammatically plural elohim (i.e. taking a plural verb or adjective) when used of pagan divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7).
This is self-evident from the fact that the verb “created” בָּרָה (bara) in Genesis 1:1 is in the singular. This linguistic pattern is well known and widely used throughout the Jewish Scriptures. For example, I am certain that many readers are familiar with the Hebrew word חַיִים (chayim), meaning “life.” Notice that this word contains the identical plural suffix “im,” as in Elohim, yet it repeatedly means “life”, in the singular, throughout the Bible. Examples are:
And Rebekah said to Isaac, “I am weary of my life because of the daughters of Heth; if Jacob takes a wife of the daughters of Heth, like these who are the daughters of the land, what good will my life חַיִים (chayim) be to me?”…Genesis 27:46
You have granted me life חַיִים (chayim) and favor, and Your care has preserved my spirit…Job 10:12
The fact that the name of God, Elohim, does not in any way imply a plurality in the godhead is well known and widely recognized even among Trinitarian Christians. For example, in the New International Version Study Bible (NIV), which is a Christian commentary that cannot be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith, the Christian author writes in his commentary on Genesis 1:1:
God created. The Hebrew noun Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when reference is to the one true God. This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality. (New International Version Study Bible, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1985, p. 6.)
Anyways bluto, I have no reason to doubt the many Jewish sources which understand this Elohim to be singular in meaning. Not to mention the fact that NOWHERE do we ever see the Jews speaking about God being a Triune being. If Elohim had a plural God meaning that you want to believe it has, then why did the Jews never view it like that throughout their many generations of single person God believers? Did the Jews not understand their own language?
Moreover, just read the book of Judges. You see when the Jews turned to another God or false Gods, God then left them unprotected with their enemies. Then they would eventually repent and come back to the Lord, who would forgive them and again and deliver them from their enemies. Obviously this single person God that the Jews worshipped was correct according to God Himself…was it not?
So if God was ok with Himself being identified as a single person back then, acknowledging that the Jews were correct in who God was, did He now change His mind and want to now be viewed as three persons in one? When did God explain to us that He wanted us to now view Him as three persons in one? Don’t you think that if God was not a single person He might want to explain this to His people instead of having them worship Him in error?
Yet we don’t see this correction of who God was in the OT. Nor do we see it in the NT, as I previously showed in Mark 12:28-34, when Jesus agrees with the Jewish scribe. Your second question implies an ideology that I do not hold. I don’t believe that every time the word God is used, that it means the God of the Most High. As you and I are both aware, the word god and lord can and has been used throughout scripture, even if it’s not in reference to “the” God.
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live…1 Corinthians 8:5-6.
A FEW OLD TESTAMENT IDENTIFICATIONS OF GOD…
Is this how you repay the Lord, you foolish and senseless people? Isn’t He your Father and Creator? Didn’t He make you and sustain you?...Deuteronomy 32:6
Don’t all of us have one Father? Didn’t one God create us? Why then do we act treacherously against one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?...Malachi 2:10
Yet Lord, You are our Father; we are the clay, and You are our potter; we all are the work of Your hands…Isaiah 64:8
A FEW NEW TESTAMENT IDENTIFICATIONS OF GOD…
Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father…1 Thessalonians 1:1-3
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens…Ephesians 1:2-3
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort…2 Corinthians 1:2-3
My personal opinion of God being the Father and Jesus being His Divine Son (our Lord), through whom we receive salvation, is based upon scriptures like the few I just posted (which I can provide dozens of). If I can provide so many scriptures that CLEARLY identify God as the Father, then can you provide at least one single verse that says that God is a combination of the Father, Son, and Spirit combined?
I’m not talking about something like baptizing in certain names or vague correlations that one must “infer”. I mean, just give me a single verse that someone refers to God and says Father, Son, and Spirit…like they do with the Father alone. Otherwise I have no choice but to believe what I read in scripture, not what I must “infer” because it is written in doctrine.
To Timothy, my true son in the faith. Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. As I urged you when I went to Macedonia, remain in Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach different doctrine…1 Timothy 1:2-3
J
one thing i always thought strange about the trinity, its the debate of debates, people have been killed over it, church divided over it, yet why was it never debated in the days of Jesus and the 12. the pharisees were always testing Jesus, this would be a great test. not one Jew, Greek or anyone ever came up to Jesus or one of the 12 and asked them to explain these different persons or natures of the Most High. you would think they would have.
They did ask Jesus about this:
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
They did ask Jesus about this:
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Examine yourselves. Or do you yourselves not recognize that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless you fail the test…2 Corinthians 13:5
According to the Trinity Doctrine, the Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Father. The Spirit is not the Father, nor the Son. They are each separate persons that make up who God is. This is why attempting to show that Jesus is the Father, not only goes against single person God identifiers, but it also goes against Trinity believers themselves.
If one believes that Jesus is the Father, then most likely they believe in some form of modalism, because the Trinity asserts that the three persons are distinctly separate, yet together make up a single God. However, I do believe that Jesus was able to show the Father to others…”through” Himself. After all, Jesus is said to be the mediator between God and man. Plus there are many verses that show how God spoke through, or told Jesus what to speak.
For I have not spoken on My own, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a command as to what I should say and what I should speak. I know that His command is eternal life. So the things that I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.…John 12:49-50
Jesus answered them, “My teaching isn’t Mine but is from the One who sent Me…John 7:16
The one who doesn’t love Me will not keep My words. The word that you hear is not Mine but is from the Father who sent Me…John 14:24
“I have many things to say and to judge about you, but the One who sent Me is true, and what I have heard from Him—these things I tell the world.”…John 8:26
Then Jesus replied, “I assure you: The Son is not able to do anything on His own, but only what He sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does these things in the same way…John 5:19
As you can see, if the Father is speaking directly through Jesus, showing Jesus what to say and do, then it makes sense why Jesus might say something like…
Jesus said to him, “Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?...John14:9
This is why I personally do not believe that Jesus was trying to imply that He was literally the Father. Rather, that since He has been speaking and doing what the Father shows and tells Him to, He has shown us who the Father is. In addition, I believe that the Father may have been speaking directly to Philip “through” Jesus. I believe that the Father is reveled through the Son. Not that the Father is the Son.