"replacement theology" - what is it?

[peacenik]

... I believe 100% that this group of boys is the 144,000.....and as the first fruits offered by JESUS unto the FATHER there can be no other group that is better suited....144,000 JEWISH MALES, all VIRGINS, NO GUILE and the 1st MARTYRS in the particular name of and place of JESUS......this dawned on men like 10 years ago and makes complete SENSE when all the facts are examined!

The Book of Revelations does NOT indicate that all 144,000 saints are Jewish. A break down by tribal origin is given in Rev 7: 5-8 as follows,



5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 7


As we all know from reading the Bible, Judah was a part of Israel. But not all Israelite tribes were Judean.

And what is a "saint"? The word is defined as,

scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints

https://gotquestions.org/saints-Christian.html

 

[tanakh]

Based upon all the children of Jacob being attributed unto Rachael, the prophesy of Rachael weeping for her children and it coming to pass when Herod had all the BOYS UNDER TWO KILLED in ALL the COASTS of ISRAEL I believe 100% that this group of boys is the 144,000.....and as the first fruits offered by JESUS unto the FATHER there can be no other group that is better suited....144,000 JEWISH MALES, all VIRGINS, NO GUILE and the 1st MARTYRS in the particular name of and place of JESUS......this dawned on men like 10 years ago and makes complete SENSE when all the facts are examined!

It is a good theory but one flaw is that other translations dont use the word coasts. Herod knew that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem so why would he go throughout the whole of Israel to kill the children? Also how many Coasts does Israel have? Other translations use region or something similar.

 

[tanakh]

The Book of Revelations does NOT indicate that all 144,000 saints are Jewish. A break down by tribal origin is given in Rev 7: 5-8 as follows,



5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 7


As we all know from reading the Bible, Judah was a part of Israel. But not all Israelite tribes were Judean.

And what is a "saint"? The word is defined as,

scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints

https://gotquestions.org/saints-Christian.html

The idea that these are Jewish 'saints' ties in with the Pre Trib idea that the church is raptured before the tribulation and
all the witnesses left are Jews. This stems from the belief that John being told to ''come up here'' and the fact that the word church is not mentioned after chapter four proof of the Pre Trib rapture. The main problem with this idea is that there are several Epistles where the word Church isnt mentioned either yet I have never heard anyone suggest that were not written to Churches.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The Book of Revelations does NOT indicate that all 144,000 saints are Jewish. A break down by tribal origin is given in Rev 7: 5-8 as follows,

Revelation most certainly does identify those 144,000 as belonging to the twelve tribes of Israel. These are the first fruits to God out of Israel. Why do people introduce such things, attempting to make a distinction between Israel and being a Jew? The bottom line is that, they are twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes, minus Dan, which is replaced by Manasseh.

And what is a "saint"? The word is defined as,

scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints

The word "Saint" is not unique to the church. There will be Gentile saints who will be on earth after the church has been gathered and who will go through the great tribulation who are not the church.We are told right in the scripture who this group of 144,000 are, which are from the twelve tribes of Israel and therefore they cannot be the church. Furthermore, the church will have already been gathered and will not be on the earth during the time when these 144,000 are sealed.

The scripture identifies this group of 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel and you magically turn them into the church. How about that they are 144,000 saints from the twelve tribes of Israel just as the scripture states? The group described after the 144,000 wearing white robes which no man can count are Gentile saints and are also not the church.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The idea that these are Jewish 'saints' ties in with the Pre Trib idea that the church is raptured before the tribulation and
all the witnesses left are Jews. This stems from the belief that John being told to ''come up here'' and the fact that the word church is not mentioned after chapter four proof of the Pre Trib rapture. The main problem with this idea is that there are several Epistles where the word Church isnt mentioned either yet I have never heard anyone suggest that were not written to Churches.

Good evening tanakh,

Chapter 1 thru 3 = Church referred to, but not Saints

Chapter 4 onward = Saints referred to, but not the church

This is a God given clue, a deeper understanding of God's word. Throughout the rest of scripture, the word church and saints are used interchangeably. But here in Revelation, there is a distinction made between the two and that to demonstrate that the church is no longer present from chapter 4 onward. The saints that are referred to are those who come out of the great tribulation. It is no coincidence that the Holy Spirit used only the word Church throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then never uses that word again during the entire narrative. Now if the words church and saints was used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation, then it would be a non issue. But by making a distinction between them, God is giving us pertinent information here.

 

[tanakh]

Revelation most certainly does identify those 144,000 as belonging to the twelve tribes of Israel. These are the first fruits to God out of Israel. Why do people introduce such things, attempting to make a distinction between Israel and being a Jew? The bottom line is that, they are twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes, minus Dan, which is replaced by Manasseh.



The word "Saint" is not unique to the church. There will be Gentile saints who will be on earth after the church has been gathered and who will go through the great tribulation who are not the church.We are told right in the scripture who this group of 144,000 are, which are from the twelve tribes of Israel and therefore they cannot be the church. Furthermore, the church will have already been gathered and will not be on the earth during the time when these 144,000 are sealed.

The scripture identifies this group of 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel and you magically turn them into the church. How about that they are 144,000 saints from the twelve tribes of Israel just as the scripture states? The group described after the 144,000 wearing white robes which no man can count are Gentile saints and are also not the church.

I'm beginning to wonder exactly how many 'Bodies' of Christ' are there? At one time there was only one. Now it seems there are at least three. The same goes for the Rapture once there was one now there are several depending on who you believe. For Christs coming there was at one time only one second time, (the clue is in the description)
now there is at least two. I have even read that Jesus makes visits to Churches quite often based on an interpretation
taken from the seven churches in Revelation. No wonder there are so many heated debates on this site.

 

[garee]

What we are as the bride of Christ is not what we will be. The new creature has nothing to do with the rudiments of this world .They will be dissolved having gone in smoke, never again to rise to new spirit life.

2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.1 John 3

144,000 lively stones that make up the spiritual house of God, as His chaste virgin bride, the church.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven2Co 5:1

The 1444,000 represents all whose names will be found in the Lambs book of life slain from the foundation of the world .This is regard less if they were male, female, Jew or Gentile. She is the chaste virgin bride the church.

The marriage will be consummated in the new heavens and earth when she will receive her new incorruptible body.

One wife made of new creatures right from the very beginning in Genesis showing our husband coming for His chaste virgin bride as one that has not fornicated by serving other gods of the flesh, called the strange woman (the unconverted ).

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

His chaste virgin bride the church is shown in a parable found in Revelation 12

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.Rev 12:1

 

[garee]

Good evening tanakh,

Chapter 1 thru 3 = Church referred to, but not Saints

Chapter 4 onward = Saints referred to, but not the church

This is a God given clue, a deeper understanding of God's word. Throughout the rest of scripture, the word church and saints are used interchangeably. But here in Revelation, there is a distinction made between the two and that to demonstrate that the church is no longer present from chapter 4 onward. The saints that are referred to are those who come out of the great tribulation. It is no coincidence that the Holy Spirit used only the word Church throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then never uses that word again during the entire narrative. Now if the words church and saints was used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation, then it would be a non issue. But by making a distinction between them, God is giving us pertinent information here.

What God joins together let no man call separate. The bride of Christ the church is made up of saints .You cannot divide the saints from the saints.A house divided falls. There will be only one chaste virgin bride, as the mother of us all. She is neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile.

Dispensations is not a umbilical idea. God works the same way in any generation he puts no difference between the flesh of one a nation or another .Purifying by a work of His faith ,a labor of His love.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

[FONT=&quot]Revelation most certainly does identify those 144,000 as belonging to the twelve tribes of Israel. These are the first fruits to God out of Israel. Why do people introduce such things, attempting to make a distinction between Israel and being a Jew? The bottom line is that, they are twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes, minus Dan, which is replaced by Manasseh. [/FONT]

Why? Because you need to call things by their correct names.

God is not a God of confusion.

Do you think that during any of the Israelite internecine wars, the tribes suddenly all dropped their identity and started playing football??

Do you think when the Tribe of Benjamin was being hunted down for rape, murder and sodomy, that they all just hung fire and chilled out over a camp fire and some Budweisers??

I mean come on Ahwatukee, please respect the integrity of the Bible, of God's word, otherwise it becomes very difficult to make sense of anything.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

In the thread on Revelation Ahwatukee, you said:

Morning Grace777,

The only thing that I would add regarding those who have different views would be the following:

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."

I don't believe that is restricted changing the print, but adding to or taking away via word of mouth, teaching, proclaiming.

And yet you are now telling us we can scrub out the names of the individual tribes, and replace with Judah.

Of course you will deny this, but that is effectively what you have just done.

So by your own logic, you now no longer share any part of the tree of life or the new Jerusalem.

 

[Ahwatukee]

In the thread on Revelation Ahwatukee, you said:



And yet you are now telling us we can scrub out the names of the individual tribes, and replace with Judah.

Of course you will deny this, but that is effectively what you have just done.

So by your own logic, you now no longer share any part of the tree of life or the new Jerusalem.

Hello Spurgeoncy,

I'm not scrubbing any names from the individual tribes. I'm supporting what the scripture states, which is twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel that are listed. The 144,000 will be from the original twelve tribes minus Dan. Therefore, I have not added to or taken away from the prophesy of the book of Revelation. However, when you or anyone changes the identity of the 144,000 making them the church, you do distort the scriptures.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why? Because you need to call things by their correct names.

God is not a God of confusion.

Do you think that during any of the Israelite internecine wars, the tribes suddenly all dropped their identity and started playing football??

Do you think when the Tribe of Benjamin was being hunted down for rape, murder and sodomy, that they all just hung fire and chilled out over a camp fire and some Budweisers??

I mean come on Ahwatukee, please respect the integrity of the Bible, of God's word, otherwise it becomes very difficult to make sense of anything.

You make no sense whatsoever. I'll leave you to your own beliefs.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Why do people introduce such things, attempting to make a distinction between Israel and being a Jew?

These are your words Ahwatukee?

Spoken in the context of the naming of the tribes in Revelation?

Simple answers please

 

[KJV1611]

I missed a lot here yesterday and so I'm jumping back in right here.

We need to let the bible say what it says and stop lolking at things from a "doctrinal" point of view. The 144,000 were sealed prior to the destructions of the millions (guessing) of Jews destroyed in AD 70. Look at the chronology.

Revelation 6:9 KJV
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
The resurrection at the death of Christ.

Revelation 6:13-14 KJV
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
The kingdom taken from Israel.

Revelation 7:4 KJV
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
The sealing of the 144,000 before the masacre of AD 70.

The chonology is crystal clear here... this is doesn't/didn't go down like the dispensational fairy tale.

 

[Ahwatukee]

These are your words Ahwatukee?

Spoken in the context of the naming of the tribes in Revelation?

Simple answers please

My meaning is that you try to make a division and then from there you end up with those who are identified as being from the twelve tribes of Israel and making them the church. Who is taking away from the word of this prophecy? That would be, you. My point is that John heard those who were sealed as being from the twelve tribes of Israel and that is exactly who they will be, not the church. The 144,000 are in no way representing the church. This is a well known false teaching.

144,000 = Twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel

Great multitude which no man can count = Gentile believers who come out of the great tribulation

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Well I am baffled by you Ahwatukee.

Dcontroversal incorrectly stated the 144,000 were Jewish.

Peacenik and Tanakh flagged the error.

(You do see the error I assume? And you surely are very concerned for Dcontroversal's place in the Holy City and the Tree of Life, as you have previously stated that misrepresenting Revelation is a chuckable out offence)

And then you took offence against people pointing out that the Jews and Israel are not interchangeable in meaning, which suggests to me that you were defending Dcontroversal and attacking Tanakh and Peacenik.

 

[KJV1611]

My meaning is that you try to make a division and then from there you end up with those who are identified as being from the twelve tribes of Israel and making them the church. Who is taking away from the word of this prophecy? That would be, you. My point is that John heard those who were sealed as being from the twelve tribes of Israel and that is exactly who they will be, not the church. The 144,000 are in no way representing the church. This is a well known false teaching.

144,000 = Twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel

Great multitude which no man can count = Gentile believers who come out of the great tribulation

The 12 tribes of Israel is not the church.

 

[KJV1611]

Well I am baffled by you Ahwatukee.

Dcontroversal incorrectly stated the 144,000 were Jewish.

Peacenik and Tanakh flagged the error.

(You do see the error I assume? And you surely are very concerned for Dcontroversal's place in the Holy City and the Tree of Life, as you have previously stated that misrepresenting Revelation is a chuckable out offence)

And then you took offence against people pointing out that the Jews and Israel are not interchangeable in meaning, which suggests to me that you were defending Dcontroversal and attacking Tanakh and Peacenik.

What's the difference between a Jew and Israelite?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Well I am baffled by you Ahwatukee.

Dcontroversal incorrectly stated the 144,000 were Jewish.

Peacenik and Tanakh flagged the error.

(You do see the error I assume? And you surely are very concerned for Dcontroversal's place in the Holy City and the Tree of Life, as you have previously stated that misrepresenting Revelation is a chuckable out offence)

And then you took offence against people pointing out that the Jews and Israel are not interchangeable in meaning, which suggests to me that you were defending Dcontroversal and attacking Tanakh and Peacenik.

I didn't read any of their posts. My focus was regarding your post which claimed that the 144,000 is the church. So let me be clear: the 144,000 are twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel, which is exactly the same thing that scripture states.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What's the difference between a Jew and Israelite?

Jew definition: a member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins through the ancient Hebrew people of Israel to Abraham.

Nothing really. Jesus was a Jew from the tribe of Judah, which is a tribe of Israel.