To all the post trib and no trib believers.

PlainWord · Jan 3, 2017

Pentecost Kingdom? Not familiar with that term. There's the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven which appear interchangeable. Is this what you mean by "Pentecost Kingdom?" I believe the Kingdom of God came at Pentecost to those who were believers on that day. To the rest, it came upon accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord.

However, I believe you are absolutely on the right track in your end times scenario. Israel and the Church will come under severe persecution and attack and will ultimately be rescued by the Lord then all "hell" will break loose on earth in the "Wrath of God and the Lamb." This is the "Hour of Trial" spoken of in Rev 3:10 which is the same thing as the "Time of Trouble" of Dan 12:1. It is at this time that God's People are delivered as we are NOT appointed to His wrath but to salvation.

samuel23 · Jan 3, 2017

There seems to be a lack of honest reason here. Apparently you are influenced by the false Tim Lahaye movie rather then the bible and reality. Humans are just not that way, First, people who hear the gospel and reject it become hard hearted not receptive. Also, reality is that IF it were possible for the invisible rapture to occur, those people of the world would claim that aliens or something else did it, not the rapture of the church. Even if there were some people who did come to the Lord it could not ever be the amount no man could number described in Rev. The time when the Antichrist reigns IS NOT THE WRATH OF GOD,how could the Antichrist reign if it was the time of God's wrath??? After the three and one half year reign of the Antichrist THEN the wrath of God will begin. God has decreed that the Devil will get his day before the wrath of God against him.

PlainWord · Jan 3, 2017

popeye said:

LOL, only if you read Rev 14 the way you do instead of the correct way.

At the start of Rev 14, the 144K are seen in heaven with Jesus. They are seen BEFORE the Lord returns. Mount Zion is another name for Heaven. The 144K are firstfruits redeemed (or saved) first. The text does not say they were resurrected first. They are Jewish (or Israeli if you prefer) saved before any Gentile. The Gospel was first preached to the Jew then the Gentile, right?

Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

We know they are in heaven for several reasons:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.

The 144K are before the Throne. The throne is in heaven. They are singing before the four living creatures and elders, which are also in Heaven (see Rev 5). They are redeemed FROM earth. The timing of when they are introduced is BEFORE the three proclaiming angels. This is very important.

The first angel is still preaching the Gospel to those on the earth. This angel is warning the earth dwellers to fear God because the "Hour of His judgment has come" so they better fear, give glory and worship Him (before its too late). Therefore when Christ comes, He returns with the 144K who were previously in heaven with Him.

The Second Angel announces the destruction of ISLAM, that great harlot who deceived the (Muslim) nations.

Please pay close attention to the 2nd angel's proclamation because the language is identical to Rev 18:

Rev 14: [SUP]8 [/SUP]And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

compare the bold text above to the below:

Rev 18: After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen... [SUP]3 [/SUP]For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication...”

There is only one "Angel" which "Illuminates the Earth with His glory" and has "great authority" and that's Jesus. Therefore Jesus returns at the 2nd Angel, at the start of Rev 18. At Rev 18:4 we see this:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

The rest of Rev 18 discusses the destruction of the harlot - false religion - ISLAM. The Beast nations of Islam remain.

Jesus is "gathering" His people out of the area which will receive judgment. Here is your harvest of the earth, of the righteous. The saved of the earth are all with Jesus along with the 144K. Judgment follows for the wicked.

PlainWord · Jan 3, 2017

samuel23 said:

There seems to be a lack of honest reason here. Apparently you are influenced by the false Tim Lahaye movie rather then the bible and reality. Humans are just not that way, First, people who hear the gospel and reject it become hard hearted not receptive. Also, reality is that IF it were possible for the invisible rapture to occur, those people of the world would claim that aliens or something else did it, not the rapture of the church. Even if there were some people who did come to the Lord it could not ever be the amount no man could number described in Rev. The time when the Antichrist reigns IS NOT THE WRATH OF GOD,how could the Antichrist reign if it was the time of God's wrath??? After the three and one half year reign of the Antichrist THEN the wrath of God will begin. God has decreed that the Devil will get his day before the wrath of God against him.

I like, and agree with, just about everything you said, but isn't the AntiChrist also one of Tim LaHaye's characters? What 3.5 year reign of the A/C?

abcdef · Jan 3, 2017

PlainWord said:

The Pentecost Kingdom as you say, began on Pentecost.

I call it that because of the confusion over the word "church".

-----

The Pentecost Kingdom has 2 branches, the wild and the natural.

It seems that the wild branches continue to boast against the natural branches.

-----

One facet of this distortion is that some say that the "church" is "raptured" and the natural branches are left,

But once the Pentecost Kingdom is taken at His coming, both wild and natural,

That is the end of the planet,

It is destroyed by the stone/fire from heaven.

------

There won't be anyone left alive within an hour, from when Jesus comes for His Kingdom. Rev 11:13.

----

Put the 7th trumpet/2 Witnesses, the fire from heaven, and the 7th vial together, these are the last events of planet earth.

Now put the 6th trumpet, with the 6th vial, and the scene in Rev 20:8-9 together,

These are the events that take place just before the final event of the destruction of the planet.

----

The Kings of the East, across the Euphrates River (Iran), are deceived by the Roman Beast (Caesar/BoR, Vatican, Image), into attacking Jerusalem.

They are allied with Magog, (Russia, Syria, Egypt, etc.).

Israel is surrounded!

This is happening right now.

Wake up! Wake up! Jesus is coming!

He will come for the Kingdom 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to Iran and it's allies!

After Jesus comes, it is the end, 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

popeye · Jan 3, 2017

samuel23 said:

Well human reasoning tells you that if Jesus comes back WITH HIS SAINTS (which has obviously escaped you), and he BATTLES AND DEFEATS THE AC, then,yes,apparently the AC does"rule" when you say,for some unknown reason,he does not.

PlainWord · Jan 3, 2017

Can't argue with you on this>

Agreed, but the stone is symbolic. I assume you are making a reference to Dan 2 statue?

Not sure I'm with you on this. This passage only has 10th of the "city" falling and 7,000 killed. Notice that there were others not killed who were afraid and gave glory to God?

Close. The witnesses are killed then the second woe is complete.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

If you look back to the 5th trumpet you see that when it ends, the first woe is over.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things.

So, can we safely assume that the 5th trumpet = 1st woe; 6th trumpet = 2nd woe; and 7th trumpet = 3rd woe? I think so based on Rev 8: “Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!”

The point is, the witnesses are killed by the conclusion of the 6th trumpet (2nd woe). Since they prophesy (or teach) for 1,260 days and we know that the 5th trumpet lasts 5 months, we can set the start of the witnesses before the 5th trumpet. This also means the 7th trumpet (3rd woe) comes quickly and then its game, set, match.

abcdef · Jan 3, 2017

Brother PlainWord,

The stone is literal with symbolic meaning.

--

The stone of Dan. 2.

After the stone strikes, there is judgement and a new earth.

The stone striking the statue, is Jesus coming for the Pentecost kingdom, (wheat),

The chaff blowing away is shown in Rev 20 as hvn and earth flying away.

The Kingdom devours the statue while it is standing (conversion to Jesus, kingdom).

When the stone strikes and the wheat is separated, then the kingdom is delivered up to the Father, 1 Cor 15:23-28.

1/10.......First fruits

7000.......all/complete

The first ones to die will be all in Jerusalem.

The stone striking will be a direct hit on Jerusalem.

This stone/asteroid is huge, it is a planet destroyer.

Most of the atmosphere and oceans will be blown away on impact.

Then the rain of stones from the strike.

For further details see the 7th vial.

--

The resurrection at the coming of Jesus for the kingdom will have already happened (2 witnesses),

The only ones left on the planet will be those who are eternally lost, and they must face death by fire.

Lk 23:47, The centurion glorified God after the death of Jesus, but too late!

These also who killed Israel (2 witnesses), will realize after the resurrection and catching up of the Kingdom that the ones that they have killed were God's beloved and that Judgement, Perdition, and death is coming from God for them.

I might say that the individual woe might be over, but the effects of the woe might not be.

The 7 seals and 7 trumpets together, are the same story as the 2 witnesses.

This is shown by the beast which comes out of the pit at the 5 trump, who kills the 2 witnesses.

PlainWord · Jan 4, 2017

Dear Brother abcdef, Perhaps we are saying the same thing or almost the same thing?

IMO, the whole statue of Dan 2 is symbolic. It was seen in a dream. Therefore the stone that strikes it is symbolic too and not literal. The statue represents certain Kingdoms of the earth; past, present and future. The stone represents Christ. "And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth." This means Christianity filled the whole earth and indeed it has and will.

The 4 kingdoms which ruled over the earth being discussed here were:

Head - Babylon
Breast - Persia
Thighs - Greece
Legs - Rome (split into East and West)*
Feet - Divided Rome

*Western toes became the dominate powers in Europe; England, Spain, France, Germany and Italy
Eastern toes became the Ottoman Empire; Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Iran

The western nations largely became Christian while the eastern nations largely became Islamic. Christianity and Islam DO NOT MIX (Iron and Clay). Note where Christ (stone) strikes the statue.

[SUP]34 [/SUP]You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.

It struck the feet, the last part of the statue "to be built" or to appear on earth. Many Christians believe that Jesus struck the statue at the Cross and the invisible, spiritual kingdom was established back then. While He did those things and the kingdom was established, He did not strike the statue back then because human government continues and the feet did not exist until after Rome split up in 285 AD and the toes came even later. Christ could not have struck the statue until the toes formed. I think we agree on this.

Therefore, I think you are correct!! The stone hasn't struck yet even though Christianity has spread and become the largest faith on earth (1/3). When Christ returns and puts all powers under His feet and breaks the statue, then Christianity will be the only faith left.

PlainWord · Jan 4, 2017

I like this symbolism. EXCELLENT!!

Wow!! Are you saying God will use an asteroid to take out the old earth? Not to nit pick, but I think it will be an icy comet.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

A comet's tail often contains ice particles. These hail stones are about 180 lbs. But I don't see this as the end of the planet because the above verse seems to suggest men are still alive and cursing God. It has to be close to the end though.

abcdef · Jan 4, 2017

Yes.

In Dan. 2, it is seen as the stone.

The statue represents nations (souls) that rule over Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem.

The Pentecost Kingdom devours the standing statue (souls, wheat and chaff) by conversion to Jesus.

Dan. 2:35, After the stone strikes, their is no place for the chaff souls, they fly away, see Rev 20:11.

Dan. 2:35, the stone/mountain See Heb 18-29, 22-24/Jesus/Kingdom

Becomes the new earth, Jesus the living/new earth.

--

But the stone is also the means that God uses to destroy the nations outside the covenant, unbelievers.

This is a stone cut from an interspace collision that happened outside the control of men a long time ago.

The stone, which men may see as a wandering star, perhaps led Abram to the promised land.

2000 yrs later it led the wise men from the East to the birth of Jesus, a star that moved.

Now about 2000 yrs later it will strike the earth exactly 3 1/2 days after The Kings of the East conquer Jerusalem.

A perfect description of an earth destroying asteroid strike.

The "hailstones" are rocks thrown into the atmosphere as a result of the strike.

No one survives, that is, the wrath of God is finished.

PlainWord · Jan 4, 2017

I'm 90% with you on this, which is great!! The statue definitely represents Satanic inspired kingdoms which subjected Israel to their rule both politically and religiously. The Children of Israel would often fall into worship with the pagan gods of their "captures" and with those they live(d) among. There are many "harlot" religions through out the ages, but not all ensnared Israel.

In Dan 2 it's a statue, in Rev 13 it's a 7-headed beast. This beast, IMO, represents the 7 world empires from Egypt to the Ottomans which have had dominion over Israel. I've studied ISLAM in detail and it clearly has roots and symbols and manners of worship going back through each of these kingdoms.

I like it, awesome!!

There is no Heb 18. What was the passage you were referencing?

We are all part of a spiritual temple, individual stones with Christ as the chief cornerstone. How this takes shape is beyond me. Living earth? New Earth? Whatever it is, count me in.

I see it more as a fire. I think the term "stone" comes from the concept that the term "mountains" represent spiritual strongholds or religions. I think stone is used as an analogy of a tiny faith, starting out as a stone, then becomes a mountain that fills the whole earth. Regardless, I think we are on the same page with the big picture. It's going to get crazy on earth.

Okay, now I'm at a different opinion with you on this. First off, the Bethlehem Star has been proven to be a rare but normal astrological event. If memory serves, back in 3 or 4 BC, Jupiter came in close proximity to Regulus. They were stacked, liked a figure 8 and appeared as one super bright star. Regulus (Regal) aligning with Jupiter (the King planet) would have been the brightest object the wise men ever saw. Jupiter then went in retrograde motion, which is reversing its path and appeared to make the star move. No rock would have given off the light needed to the naked eye.

The rock hitting statue is not literal IMO. Christ returns and His spoken word destroys all other faiths as it become obvious who He is and every knee will bow. Gotta run...

abcdef · Jan 4, 2017

PlainWord said:

We agree on many things,

We should be able to reason together.

Yes, the stone is part of the dream, but what does it symbolize?

1. Jesus, the "holy stone", cut from a mountain without human hands.

And the stone became a mountain, Heb 12:18-29, 22-24. (I forgot to state the chapter on that, sorry)

The stone filled the earth.... When the stone fills the earth, it is after the judgement and the wind taking away the chaff of lost souls/nations.

When the stone fills the earth it becomes the earth.

It fills...there is no old earth left, because the stone/Jesus has now become the new living earth Rev 21:1-2

2. The kingdom,

Which phase of the Kingdom does this stone (Jesus) represent?

A. The Day of Pentecost? As you say, the nations of the statue still exist, but the statue is being devoured.

B. The kingdom finished, When Jesus delivers the Kingdom up to the Father, 1 Cor 15:23-28,23-24.

During the Judgement of Rev 20, this material heaven and earth fly away,

Then the new heavens and earth appear.

Living heavens, the Father.

Living earth, Jesus the stone, becomes the earth.

That rule over Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem.

The time of the building of the statue is over now, it is complete, now that Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

Living earth

Not this material earth.

The statue of the souls of nations is destroyed, no more chaff ever, EVER, FOR ETERNITY!

This earth will be gone when the stone strikes, then the judgment.

I agree with this.

This is most important, keep this statement of yours in mind as we discuss this.

See that the Roman empire lasts until the stone strikes.

So we know that the things prophetic about Rome must ALL be fulfilled before the stone strikes, because after the stone strikes there is NO PLACE found for them.

This means that the trib., the mill., the beasts, must all end at or before the stone strikes.

Generally speaking, yes.

OK.

The best that I can give you on the clay is that it would not be iron,

That is, the nations that the clay represents are non-Roman nations.

--

See how the iron and clay are mixed together.

One foot and toes are not completely clay and the other foot and toes are not completely iron,

The clay is intermixed with the iron,

--

These are nations, so the non-Roman nations,

Are mixed with the Roman nations,

Which rule over Israel, until Israel is restored to Jerusalem, 1967.

Possibly only months from now,

When Jerusalem falls,

The stone will strike.

The number 10, as seen here divided into individuals, means complete division,

I don't see it as necessarily literal, in symbolic passages.

So the ten toes would show that the Roman Empire was completely divided at it's fall 476 ad.

Also see how the toes NEVER come back together again.

---

Once Israel is restored to Jerusalem, the statue ends, it doesn't stop and then start again.

When Jerusalem falls this time, it's the end.

The Pentecost Kingdom begins on the statue, just after the iron begins, (Rome invades Israel).

It would be shown as the organs of discharge and reproduction.

Kind of, it was the best of times and the worst of times, ha ha.

The organs of reproduction show the beginning of the Pentecost Kingdom,

After which the Pentecost Kingdom begins to devour the statue of nations/souls.

And the organs of discharge show the uncleaness of the times, (Caesar worship, pollution)

You are right on this!

Because after the stone strikes comes the judgment and eternity.

PlainWord · Jan 5, 2017

Absolutely!

Yes, true. A "stone" also is one of the materials used to carve idols (Deu 28:64). So having this "stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth" is to me a reference that Christianity spread throughout the world. I see it as a figurative way of saying Christ defeats all enemy religions upon His return.

We see the same finality, the same end game, that is Christ is victorious over all false religions and human governments. The process of this has been on-going since the Cross in the spiritual realm. I also believe that before Christ returns heaven will literally open up and be visible to man on earth. Mankind will see God and Son on the throne with the armies of heaven (clouds of heaven) poised to attack. There are multiple passages that teach this (2 Thes 1:7, Rev 6:16, 11:19, Mat 24:30 to name a few).

I believe the earth will turn on its axis with the north and south pole switching positions, "the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up." It is going to be one big terrifying event, especially for the wicked. I do believe a comet will come close and cause the hail stones the size of a talent. ITS GONNA BE CRAZY!!

Yes. The Harlot has been revealed and she is waging a fierce war with God's people and she is just getting started.

Rome indeed lasts but as a divided kingdom as I mentioned. The 2 feet and 10 toes are where we are now. Daniel shows this again in Dan 7 only there he sees them as 10 horns. John also sees the 10 horns on the beast. If a head is a kingdom, then the horn is its leader or smaller kingdom. The key passage in Dan 7 that most people miss is this:

[SUP]24 [/SUP]The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.

These 10 horns arise from this kingdom (Rome). Many people want to make this about 10 Roman emperors. But the previous passage disputes this:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints...

The Little Horn is making war until God comes with judgment. John gives more detail:

And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

If the harlot is ISLAM, as I've been saying, then we have 10 nation-less leaders who hate their religion and are bent on destroying it. Are the radical jihadists fighting with secular ISLAM today giving ISLAM a bad name? I count 9 major terror groups who are persecuting moderate Muslims and killing Christians all over their 1/4 part of the earth. Will they swear allegiance to ISIS or another group? Some already have. Time will tell.

Yes, but they came out of Rome, from the Eastern Roman (Byzantine Empire). Their capital was Constantinople, named after Emperor Constantine who of course the first Roman Emperor to profess Christianity and make it Rome's official religion. He invaded England and of course Western Rome and gave credit for his success to the "Christian God." The clay would come later in the form of the Ottomans and ISLAM would ultimately defeat Christianity in the eastern part of the empire. Today we see these two dominant world religions at odds with each other. These religions and cultures do not mix. Just ask Angela Merkel.

PlainWord · Jan 5, 2017

I believe the recent Obama lead UN Security resolution is the beginning of the end. If Trump moves our Embassy to Jerusalem, I think the Palestinians will go berserk. Their response could be the defiling of the Wall ending the daily sacrifices (prayers) there. This event starts the 1,335 day clock to the End and those days are cut short for the sake of the ELECT.

tanakh · Jan 5, 2017

PlainWord said:

The Israelites had a time of trial in Egypt as slaves. When Gods wrath fell on the Egyptions the Israelites were not affected by it but they stayed in Goshen and were not taken from the Earth while the plagues fell on the Egyptians.
What happened to the Egyptians is used in the book of Revelation when describing the wrath of God, but is given a world wide application.

PlainWord · Jan 5, 2017

tanakh said:

Similarities for sure. I believe the initial Wrath is limited to those doing the persecuting and not the entire planet of unbelievers. The seals are aimed specifically at the Beast followers and Beast kingdom.

Final condemnation judgment wrath would effect all unbelievers.

abcdef · Jan 5, 2017

PlainWord said:

Brother PlainWord,

Is Islam, Magog, or part of Magog? Rev 20?

abcdef · Jan 5, 2017

PlainWord said:

What's the difference? They hate Israel and the God (Jesus) that Israel represents.

They're doing the best that they can now to destroy Israel, short of all out war, which is coming.

(Israel will lose, Jerusalem will fall)

-----

The 3 frog spirits of the 6th vial is the next event in the prophetic time line.

Rev 16:12-16,

The "spirits of devils" v14, come out of the mouth of the:

1. Dragon....Satan, But in Rev 12:3, the Dragon (spirit), is Identified with a "body"(nation of Rome) of 7 heads and 10 horns, Rome

2. The Beast....Rome, The legs of iron, 4th beast Dan. 7,

3. The False Prophet.....Caesar/Bishop of Rome (BoR),

The event that will cause the Kings of the East (Iran), to attack Israel across the Euphrates River is,

A statement from the Bishop of Rome (Caesar, Image).

The angel said in Dan. 12:6-7, that all of the things of the last vision would be finished at the scattering of Israel in 70 ad.

-----

When Jesus comes, This world/Planet ends.

There is nothing after that except judgement and eternity.

PlainWord · Jan 5, 2017

abcdef said:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]“Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, [SUP]3 [/SUP]and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.

I believe the passage from Ez 38 above identifying those who attack Israel is more than just those ISLAMIC countries but includes Russia

See the below from Zec:

Zechariah 12:3

And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

All nations are not All nations of the planet, they are those of the earth shown above. Pretty much every nation on the planet is against Israel in the UN now, except for us once Jan 20 comes.

To all the post trib and no trib believers.

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