PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

[tanakh]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Amen on the Joshua reference.....it follows the order of the seals, trumpets exactly.....even leaves out the hidden thunders and the verbiage is the same used in the resurrection/change....

A massive blow of the last TRUMP, the SHOUT, ASCENSION and Victory........

seen this truth about 10 plus years ago.........

Amen Brother If only others would see and admit the truth. There can only be one accurate interpretation. God gave John revelation to reveal it to us. He is not a God of confusion.

 

[dcontroversal]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

The wise had no oil,(no Holy Spirit,but had some oil at first,they simply ran out)

The wise went with the groom to the marriage chamber (intimacy)

Foolish left behind,no intimacy

Ok so let me get this straight....

A person is born again (spiritually) of an INCORRUPTABLE SEED <--BEYOND the ability to be corrupted
They are SEALED with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE

The bible says the following...

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

But then they can lose it........ummmmmmm sorry....not buying it....God said everything he does lasts forever....if you can lose it the above verse is a lie......

That is what ALL who say you can lose it miss.....God does not work temporarily...EVERTHING he does is on an eternal SCALE.....INCLUDING

Saving, justifying, sanctifying (positionally) and sealing someone into his kingdom!

 

[dcontroversal]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

Amen Brother If only others would see and admit the truth. There can only be one accurate interpretation. God gave John revelation to reveal it to us. He is not a God of confusion.

I fully agree....way too many verses contradict the imminent return farce........a misapplication of the words saints, the elect, tribulation, wrath, keep.....a rejection of who Jesus is actually speaking to in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13, a rejection of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, a rejection of why both Thessalonian letters were written, a denial of the day of the Lord, Christ and God being one day commencing at the 7th trump, a misapplication of when the wrath of God is actually announced in heaven as being here, a rejection of everyone seeing his visible coming in the clouds with power and great glory and applied unto the saints, lost religious, every kindred, tongue and every eye.....etc....

I was raised in an imminent return church and had that crammed down my throat.....it does not jive with scripture regardless of the twist by those who believe it.....

 

[Ahwatukee]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

I believe in the what the vast majority of the Church believed and still do for over two thousand years. That is that there is only one second coming and that the rapture and resurrection of the dead happens at that time. We are gathered together and meet the Lord in the air and accompany him on his return to earth. His coming will occur at the end of the Jewish New Year known as the feast of Trumpets. This is followed by Yom Kippur which concerned with sin and judgement and lastly Tabernacles that pre figure the Millennium.

Morning tanakh,

Your continuing error, is that you are not taking into consideration the other aspects of end-time events, namely, the wrath of God. You claim that there is only "one second coming" and you are correct. Jesus will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom and fulfill the prophecy of ruling from Jerusalem and sitting on the throne of David. That said, scripture is clear that this event will take place only after seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have taken place, which is the wrath of God.

The gathering of the church on the other hand, is a completely separate event from the Lord's return to end the age. Scripture states--and this is what you are not incorporating into your exegesis--is that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, which again, must take place prior to Jesus returning to the earth. God's coming wrath is not to be confused with the trials and tribulations that Jesus and the apostles said that believers would have. It will be an unprecedented time "the day of the Lord" which the OT prophets and the apostles prophesied of, bringing this age to an end.

You have also not taken into consideration that army riding on white horses who are following Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:14. In Rev.19:6-8, we see the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean and then in Rev.19:14, we see this army mentioned as wearing the same clothing, demonstrating that the bride who previously received the bright clothing, is that army seen wearing that same clothing and riding on the white horses following Christ out of heaven. If they are following Christ out of heaven, then they would have already had to be in heaven.

For anyone who would try to assign this army on white horses as being angels, we have other scripture that identifies those who are returning with Christ, which according to Rev.17:14, will be His "called, chosen and faithful followers." That designation cannot be referring to angels, but to those who will have previously been resurrected and are returning with Christ to the earth to end the age. You are simply not performing a thorough exegesis, as you are not taking into consideration this other information. If you had, then you would be coming to the same conclusion that I arrived at.

If the church was to go through God's wrath, then it would be a dishonor to Jesus, because he experienced God's wrath for every believer and thereby satisfying it. 1 Thes.1:10 tells us that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath:

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

God did not appoint us to suffer wrath:

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Another on-going problem is that, people do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. These events of plagues will be like nothing that has ever taken place upon the earth. The result being the majority of the earth's population being decimated and all human government dismantled. If the church were here, it would be exposed to all of the same events of wrath that the wicked will be experiencing and that because it will affect the entire earth.

Another issue that you stop short of in your exegesis--and as I continue to point out--is one of God's clues in the book of Revelation, which that from Revelation 1 thru 3, only the word Ekklesia translated church is used within those chapters. You will not find the word Hagios transled as Saints anywhere in those first three chapters. Likewise, from Rev.4 onward and beginning at 5:8, the Holy Spirit abruptly stopped using the word Eklesia/church and all believers from that point on are referred to as Hagios/Saints. The read never sees the word Ekklesia/church again, until Rev.22:16.

It is not by coincidence that the Holy Spirit switched from Ekklesia to Hagios. And the Hagios that he is referring to are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. As I have said many times, the very fact that the elder is asking John "who are these in white robes and where did they come from" tells you that this group is not the church. John tells the elder that he doesn't know who they are and the elder tells him "These are those who have come out of the great tribulation." This group are those who will have come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time period of God's wrath.

With all due respect tanakh, you are not performing a thorough exegesis when it comes to end-time events and which is the also the same problem for many.

The gathering of the Church is when Christ descends from heaven bringing with him the spirits/souls of those who will have died in Christ from the on-set of the church right up to the resurrection and who will then be reunited with those resurrected bodies. Immediately following that, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in air. At that time John 14:1-3 the promise of the Lord will be fulfilled when He takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those mansions/rooms/dwelling places that went to prepare for us, that where he is we may be also.

In keeping with the scriptures, this exegesis keeps the church from going through God's wrath and it also provides time for the bride/church to receive her fine linen in heaven, white and clean, at the wedding of the Lamb. And it also satisfies the scripture for the bride/church to be able to follow Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:11-21.

With all due respect, your exegesis is incomplete. Until you recognize these things, your interpretation will always be in error.

 

[wsblind]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

Morning tanakh,

Your continuing error, is that you are not taking into consideration the other aspects of end-time events, namely, the wrath of God. You claim that there is only "one second coming" and you are correct. Jesus will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom and fulfill the prophecy of ruling from Jerusalem and sitting on the throne of David. That said, scripture is clear that this event will take place only after seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have taken place, which is the wrath of God.

The gathering of the church on the other hand, is a completely separate event from the Lord's return to end the age. Scripture states--and this is what you are not incorporating into your exegesis--is that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, which again, must take place prior to Jesus returning to the earth. God's coming wrath is not to be confused with the trials and tribulations that Jesus and the apostles said that believers would have. It will be an unprecedented time "the day of the Lord" which the OT prophets and the apostles prophesied of, bringing this age to an end.

You have also not taken into consideration that army riding on white horses who are following Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:14. In Rev.19:6-8, we see the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean and then in Rev.19:14, we see this army mentioned as wearing the same clothing, demonstrating that the bride who previously received the bright clothing, is that army seen wearing that same clothing and riding on the white horses following Christ out of heaven. If they are following Christ out of heaven, then they would have already had to be in heaven.

For anyone who would try to assign this army on white horses as being angels, we have other scripture that identifies those who are returning with Christ, which according to Rev.17:14, will be His "called, chosen and faithful followers." That designation cannot be referring to angels, but to those who will have previously been resurrected and are returning with Christ to the earth to end the age. You are simply not performing a thorough exegesis, as you are not taking into consideration this other information. If you had, then you would be coming to the same conclusion that I arrived at.

If the church was to go through God's wrath, then it would be a dishonor to Jesus, because he experienced God's wrath for every believer and thereby satisfying it. 1 Thes.1:10 tells us that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath:

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

God did not appoint us to suffer wrath:

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Another on-going problem is that, people do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. These events of plagues will be like nothing that has ever taken place upon the earth. The result being the majority of the earth's population being decimated and all human government dismantled. If the church were here, it would be exposed to all of the same events of wrath that the wicked will be experiencing and that because it will affect the entire earth.

Another issue that you stop short of in your exegesis--and as I continue to point out--is one of God's clues in the book of Revelation, which that from Revelation 1 thru 3, only the word Ekklesia translated church is used within those chapters. You will not find the word Hagios transled as Saints anywhere in those first three chapters. Likewise, from Rev.4 onward and beginning at 5:8, the Holy Spirit abruptly stopped using the word Eklesia/church and all believers from that point on are referred to as Hagios/Saints. The read never sees the word Ekklesia/church again, until Rev.22:16.

It is not by coincidence that the Holy Spirit switched from Ekklesia to Hagios. And the Hagios that he is referring to are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. As I have said many times, the very fact that the elder is asking John "who are these in white robes and where did they come from" tells you that this group is not the church. John tells the elder that he doesn't know who they are and the elder tells him "These are those who have come out of the great tribulation." This group are those who will have come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time period of God's wrath.

With all due respect tanakh, you are not performing a thorough exegesis when it comes to end-time events and which is the also the same problem for many.

The gathering of the Church is when Christ descends from heaven bringing with him the spirits/souls of those who will have died in Christ from the on-set of the church right up to the resurrection and who will then be reunited with those resurrected bodies. Immediately following that, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in air. At that time John 14:1-3 the promise of the Lord will be fulfilled when He takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those mansions/rooms/dwelling places that went to prepare for us, that where he is we may be also.

In keeping with the scriptures, this exegesis keeps the church from going through God's wrath and it also provides time for the bride/church to receive her fine linen in heaven, white and clean, at the wedding of the Lamb. And it also satisfies the scripture for the bride/church to be able to follow Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:11-21.

With all due respect, your exegesis is incomplete. Until you recognize these things, your interpretation will always be in error.

Good stuff. You referenced it in this post, but I think many gloss over this fact.......the Bema seat of Christ.

This is when and where all church age believers receive their reward,reign and rank with Christ. And it determines our place in His kingdom. And it is where we get our uniforms of glory,resurrected bodies and many other things. There has to be a time for this. Just another clue for the pretrib rapture and the 7 year tribulation is When this Bema seat judgement takes place.

During the tribulation on earth, the Church is in heaven being evaluated and at the second coming the bride comes back with Him in proper rank and attire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

Hmm,Or what if the timing of most begins from an incorrect point. If Rome was the fourth beast and it is written that they would be in bondage through 4 beast then Babylon they were in bondage to,then Persia,and then Greece all held them in bondage for the allocated years but when it came down to the forth beast,Rome,when it's sixth head was present the Jews decided enough is enough and revolted before they had finished the punishment.

rome is the final beast, However, Rome in the day of Christ had non of the characteristics of the final beast. The jews did exactly as was prophesied in the OT, and for that reason, the people of the prince who was to come destroyed the city and sanctuary right on Que. the 70 weeks are not completed yet. Nor has the abomination been set up yet..

I think they should have listened to the apostles and honoured the nation over them like it says in Romans 13:1-10... or Hebrews 13:17 or 1 Peter 2. Why though? If it was the end of the 70 weeks then it was over right? On the other hand if the apostles thought that the entire time of that gentile nations rule over them was not yet finished then it is proper to still view the forth beast as still over them and say to honour them as if appointed by God. And is also why the Jews in the siege nor the Christians had the mark it had not yet come.

This I can agree with,, It has not yet come.. That is why Israel has not yet ended her sin,,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

Brothers and Sistets,

This idea of I hope to avoid tribulation, tribulation the the book of Mathew says we will see. Tribulation that over the centuries from the beginnng of the church true faith believers have gone through, from Jews first to Rome persecution,the inquisition, and many others. Even for reading the Bible! Why is it we brothers and sisters look at the clouds in the distance coming toward us quickly and know rain approaches but yet we say it will be sunny today? Until the rain falls directly on their own head and house? Until the rain falls and the ark door is closed? Until we recognize in the past 10 years Christians around the world have been and are being murdered and tried for their belief, testimonies and faith in Christ? All you have to do it look up, just because the rain hasn't hit you directly doesn't mean the storm isn't here.. ask those in China, in Iraq, in Syria, North Korea in different areas of Asia and Asia Minor the Middle East . If tribulation has not come. Or we can close our eyes once the rain hits us on the head directly and we become soaked and say, what a beautiful sunny day! But while your eyes are closed the lightning will strike, then the storm in full fury will be upon us. If they are believers in Christ and part of the same body and we t is documented Christian persecution at an all time high, why do we think tribulation has not already begun? Are they not being beaten, beheaded and shot. Even in free America by the use of laws we are being persecuted. Based on the definition of tribulation, I don't k ow what else we need to see in the sky to say it's raining...

Love to you brother and sisters

The sky is red, the sky is dark, what color do you see? Open your eyes and see...

You have the "great tribulation" mixed up with "tribulation" in which all partake of. Although not all of the same severity.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the Sun will be darkened and the Moon will not give its light and the Stars will fall from Heaven and the powers of the heavens will be be shaken then will appear the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he will send out his Angels and gather the elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other

Matthew24:29-31 RSV

The rapture happens after the tribulation. Jesus couldn't have put it more clearly

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him we beg you brethren not to be quickly shaken in mind or exited either by Spirit or word or by letter purporting to be from us to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed the son of perdition.....


Thessalonians 2:1-3

I wonder how many present Pre Tribbers will be deceived during the Tribulation?

I tell you in that night there will be two in one bed one will be taken and one left. There will be two women grinding together one will be taken and one left. And they said to him Where Lord? He said to them Where the body is the there the Eagles will be gathered together.

Luke 17:34-37 RSV

Then I saw an Angel standing in the Sun and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in mid heaven Come gather for the great supper of God to eat the flesh of Kings the flesh of horses and their riders and the flesh of all men both free and slave both small and great. And I saw the beast and the Kings of the Earth with their armies gathered to make war against him that sits upon the horse and against his army


Rev 19:17-19 RSV

Its not the righteous that are taken but the wicked

The wicked are killed they are not resurrected.

And if it all occurs at the end of tribulation, when jesus uts boots on ground. There are no living people alive for Jesus to rule.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

Amen Brother If only others would see and admit the truth. There can only be one accurate interpretation. God gave John revelation to reveal it to us. He is not a God of confusion.

I could say the same thing to you. This is a strawman argument.. Thus meaningless

 

[Ahwatukee]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

Good stuff. You referenced it in this post, but I think many gloss over this fact.......the Bema seat of Christ.

This is when and where all church age believers receive their reward,reign and rank with Christ. And it determines our place in His kingdom. And it is where we get our uniforms of glory,resurrected bodies and many other things. There has to be a time for this. Just another clue for the pretrib rapture and the 7 year tribulation is When this Bema seat judgement takes place.

During the tribulation on earth, the Church is in heaven being evaluated and at the second coming the bride comes back with Him in proper rank and attire.

Hello wsblind,

Thank you! Regarding the Bema seat, my purpose was to demonstrate the lack of complete exegesis on tanakh's part, as the Bema seat was not necessary to prove my point. But you are correct in that, the Bema seat will take place for those in Christ after they have been caught up, while the great white throne judgment will take place for all of the unrighteous at the end of the thousand years.

 

[iamsoandso]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

rome is the final beast, However, Rome in the day of Christ had non of the characteristics of the final beast. The jews did exactly as was prophesied in the OT, and for that reason, the people of the prince who was to come destroyed the city and sanctuary right on Que. the 70 weeks are not completed yet. Nor has the abomination been set up yet..


This I can agree with,, It has not yet come.. That is why Israel has not yet ended her sin,,

I agree. I wondered if any other saw it that way, if so it would be a huge clue about what is being discussed(fits hand in hand with the timing issue) .

 

[tanakh]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

I fully agree....way too many verses contradict the imminent return farce........a misapplication of the words saints, the elect, tribulation, wrath, keep.....a rejection of who Jesus is actually speaking to in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13, a rejection of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, a rejection of why both Thessalonian letters were written, a denial of the day of the Lord, Christ and God being one day commencing at the 7th trump, a misapplication of when the wrath of God is actually announced in heaven as being here, a rejection of everyone seeing his visible coming in the clouds with power and great glory and applied unto the saints, lost religious, every kindred, tongue and every eye.....etc....

I was raised in an imminent return church and had that crammed down my throat.....it does not jive with scripture regardless of the twist by those who believe it.....

As a new Christian I swallowed the Pre Trib package until I began to seriously study the Bible and talked to other Christians that had different views. I also expanded my reading and left the likes of Hal Lyndsay behind me.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

hi MattTooFor,

so, I don't mean this to sound belittling of the subject in any way,

but how is this important? some folks spend lots of time discussing when the rapture takes place or what it's its like... I honestly don't understand why ?

Uh...because it's in the Bible? LOL

Absolutely everything in the Bible is of absolute criticality and of utmost importance. It is interesting how some folks apparently visualize the Lord God sitting on His throne, head in his hands, moaning: "What was I thinking, oh what was I thinking...in making fully one fourth of the Bible into prophecy passages? What a 'goof' that was!"

That isn't happening.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

I hope you are not betting you soul on that?????

Uh...I "bet my soul" on my Christian beliefs, every day of the week and twice on Sunday! lol

What other choice do I have?

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

wrong again

You're speaking in code. I don't know if I'm following you. If perhaps I AM understanding you...I would then repeat, there is absolutely diddly squat, zip, zilch, nada...no mention of any "PreTrib" rapture in the Olivet Discourse.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

They did not need to know the hour or the day - so this would seem to invalidate your argument.

I think you're misunderstanding: PreTribbers claim these events happen on exactly the 1260th day. That is counter-biblical.

In any case, I don't know what you mean. If these people find out only on the very day of the outbreak of hostilities...that means many (in fact, most) will NOT escape the violence.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

No one knows the day or hour is a reference that has nothing to do with the body of Christ nor the rapture of them.

I haven't even gotten that far in the discussion. I am only and specifically and exclusively...referring to the fact that PreTribbers counter-biblically believe the "gathering" which is depicted in Matthew 24...occurs on exactly the 1260th day. That is point-blank contradiction to what Jesus says..that "no one knows the day or hour".

That is ALL I am saying for now. This one error alone unravels the entire PreTrib doctrine.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

This makes no sense, it would actually VALIDATE pre-trib doctrine. Because if it is mid trib or post trib, We would KNOW the time of his coming (hour) Thus all which is left is pre-trib or Amill.. there are no other options.

Let's look at the passage I am choosing to examine in this thread.

Verse 29 of the Olivet Discourse (in Matthew 24), Jesus says "after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

Then in verse 30, He says they will see "the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."

Then in verse 31, Jesus says the angels "will gather together His elect".

In verse 33, Jesus then says "when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door."

Finally, in verse 36 He then says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

-----

OK so...the problem for PreTrib is that it claims this "gathering" (described here in the Olivet Discourse) comes on exactly the 1260th day of the second half of Daniel's 70th Week.

You can't do that...because now you have violated the "no one knows the day or hour" scripture.

This one error alone (among a hundred and a thousand of PreTrib's errors) unravels the entire PreTrib doctrine.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

Greetings MattTooFor,

Your error is 1) not recognizing that the gathering of the church is a completely separate event vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. And 2) you are not understanding that according to Rev.7:9-17, there will be another group, that is not the church...

I think some of you folks haven't read very carefully through the Olivet Discourse. I'm not talking about a so-called "gathering of the church" right now. Nor am I talking about Rev. 7. Good grief - do you ever go far afield in a split second!

Let's look at the passage I am choosing to examine in this thread, shall we? Verse 29 of the Olivet Discourse (in Matthew 24), Jesus says "after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

Then in verse 30, He says they will see "the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."

Then in verse 31, Jesus says the angels "will gather together His elect".

In verse 33, Jesus then says "when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door."

Finally, in verse 36 He then says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

-----

OK so...the problem for PreTrib is that it claims this "gathering" (described here in the Olivet Discourse) comes on exactly the 1260th day of the second half of Daniel's 70th Week.

You can't do that...because now you have violated the "no one knows the day or hour" scripture.

This one error alone (among a hundred and a thousand of PreTrib's errors) unravels the entire PreTrib doctrine.

 

[dcontroversal]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold &quot;no one knows the day or hour&quot;

As a new Christian I swallowed the Pre Trib package until I began to seriously study the Bible and talked to other Christians that had different views. I also expanded my reading and left the likes of Hal Lyndsay behind me.

Too many scriptures that contradict it.....like I said...was raised in, believed it, stood dogmatically for it.....and then had to teach thru 1st and 2nd Thessalonians.....that was like in 1992....in 1997 wrote a 212 page book, 26 chapters that contradict the subject....have about 10 chapters to add right now if I ever take the time....