Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
In the Parable of the Wheat and the Weeds the servant is told to let the Wheat and Weeds grow together until the Harvest
At the Harvest Jesus said he would send his Angels to gather the Wheat into the Barn and Throw the Weeds into the fire.
Another Parable he put before them,saying ''The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field but while men were sleeping his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants said to the householder came and said to him, Sir did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds? He said to them an enemy has done this. The servants said to him. Then do you want us to go and gather them? But he said No lest in gathering the weeds you root up the Wheat along with them. Let both grow together together until the Harvest and at Harvest time I will tell the reapers Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned but gather my Wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:24-30 RSV
Jesus explains the meaning of the Parable so clearly a Child could understand it
Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his Disciples came to him saying ''Explain to us the Parable of the weeds of the field'' He answered ''He who who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world, and the good seed means the Sons of the kingdom, the weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy that sowed them is the devil. The Harvest is the close of the age and the reapers are the Angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his Angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers and throw them into the furnace of fire there men will gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the Sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears let him hear.
Matthew 13:36-43 RSV
What Jesus didn't say is that the Wheat will be gathered secretly and then some seven years later he would come back again to sort out the Weeds. Much of the Bible is in plain language it means exactly what it says. In revelation we are told not to add or subtract from the words in the book. This can just as easily apply to the rest of the Bible. The Bible was written so that we could understand what God wanted us to know about him and his plans for humanity not add, read between the lines and generally lay our own version of what we would like it to say over the original text.
Hello Tanakh,
How is it that you cannot conceive of other programs going on and other groups existing within end-time events other than the church? You read Matt.24:30-31 and Matt.13, and you think that it can only be speaking about the church. You pay no attention to the other scriptures and apply them to the end-time scenario. Do you think that God in his word, is going reiterate all of the other details every time his word refers to end-time events? Do you think that he is going to rehash every detail every time end-time event is mentioned?
Whenever you read something that is different or read about another group, you need to include them into your end-time scenario in order to come to a proper conclusion.
For example, in Matt.24, we read nothing about the group of 144,000, which are twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel and that because they are only mentioned in the book of Revelation. So, this group becomes another part of the puzzle.
In Matt.24 we read nothing regarding the two witnesses that will be prophesying in the streets of Jerusalem, but are mentioned in Rev.11 and they must therefore be included as being apart of end-time events.
In Rev.7:9-17, the great tribulation saints are introduced, but are not recorded in Matt.24. This is another group that needs to be included into the end-time events scenario.
Likewise, before Paul received the information regarding the mystery of living believers being transformed and caught up when the resurrection takes place, it was previously unknown and needs to be included in the end-time events scenario.
Same thing regarding the church not being appointed to suffer God's wrath. All of these things and more, must be taken into consideration when arriving at an understanding of end-time events.
As it is, you and many others have
tunnel vision, seeing only the church in everything and not believing or taking into consideration those other groups or the other events associated with end-time events. People read Matt.24:30-31 and they don't take into consideration that this event is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, which takes place after God's wrath has been completed and therefore the church could not be the group referred to as being gathered in Matt.24:31 and that because the church cannot and will not go through God's wrath. To get around this, people create apologetics relocating, spiritualizing or down-playing God's wrath in order to protect their interpretation.
Matt.24:30-31:
1). Takes place when Jesus returns to end the age
2). Every person on earth will see him
3). His angels gather the weeds first and then the wheat
Question: Can the church be those who are gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31?
Answer 1: No, the church cannot be in view here, because the wrath of God takes place leading up to the end of the age and since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then it cannot be the church who is being gathered.
Answer 2: Matt.24:31 has the angels gathering the elect from every corner of the earth. At the resurrection and catching away, angels do not gather the church, but are gathered by the Lord and are taken back to the Father's house.
Answer 3: In Matt.24:31, the angels will be gathering the righteous (great tribulation saints) who will have made it through God's wrath in their mortal bodies and who will be those who repopulate the earth during the millennial period. In opposition, the church will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and caught up to heaven.
In addition, Rev.19:14 has the church following the Lord out of heaven on white horses when he returns to end the age and therefore, how can the church be the ones being gathered by the angels if we are seen returning with the Lord?
As an example of taking into consideration all of the details of scripture, let's compare Matt.24 to other scriptures, which is describing the same event:
Matt.24:31 - Records angels arriving with Jesus at the end of the age
Rev.19:11-14 - No angels are mentioned, but only the army of heaven, which is the church
Matt.24:30-31 - Records Jesus arriving on the clouds of heaven
Rev.19:11 - Jesus returns riding on a white horse with no clouds mentioned
Matt.24:30 - When the Lord returns to end the age, every person on earth will see Him.
1 Thes.4:13-17 - When the Lord gathers the church it will be like a thief in the night, unseen, unknown.
Matt.24 - The trumpets and bowl judgments are not mentioned in the Lord's list of events
Rev.6 -19 - Records the God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements
When we take into consideration all of the scripture, they reveal the whole picture:
If we combine everything, i.e. take all scripture into consideration:
when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, according to Rev.16 it will take place after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath.
Jesus will be returning with both his angels and the church.
While the church will be following Christ down to the earth to fight against the nations that are gathered against him and his army, the angels will be going throughout the earth gathering the weeds (one taken) where they will bring them back to Armageddon to be killed by that double-edged sword.
After the weeds are gathered, the angels will gather the wheat, which will be those great tribulation saints who will have survived through God's wrath. Consequently, those being gathered cannot be the church because, the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and Rev.19:14 reveals the church, as his army, following Christ out of heaven already in their immortal and glorified bodies.
