PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

[RomansToPhilemon]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

So,prejudgement (your setting that you inadvertently are presenting) you have half of a group taken,and half left behind.

Noah is a PREJUDGEMENT DIMENSION.

Are you aware that you are using a pretrib dynamic??????

Are you aware that you NEED a POST JUDGEMENT dynamic?????

You have to explain what you mean by prejudgment dimension, dynamic etc. The body of Christ cannot be found in prophecy. Hence why Paul causes it a mystery. That which is a mystery cannot also be prophecy. Prophecy is revealed, mystery is kept secret. And the idea that it was in the scriptures, just not known about doesn't work either, because the verses say HID IN GOD. Not HID IN SCRITPURES and TYPES. The mystery revealed to Paul was KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN. Hid in God. Not made known. Had it been known, Christ would NOT have been crucified 2 Cor 2.6-8.

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Yes. You did. Right here:


---
No, you don't "understand me right".

You're arguing with a phantom. That assertion was never made anywhere.

I only said there might be a suggestion of physical preparation when Jesus exhorts "pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen".

And that was when you stepped in and feigned interest about what provisions I might have and I then extended you the courtesy of giving a bit of a run-down, whereupon you and Popeye began chortling sarcastically back and forth...about taking on the "Antichrist" with a gun, etc.

It's perfectly OK though. That's 'par for the course' for a non-PreTribber living in the mainstream of the Evangelical world which is utterly predominated by a PreTrib juggernaut. 99% of the folks right here at CC are PreTrib. So I get smacked, slapped and bloodied all the time, as has been the case throughout this very thread. When people run out of arguments, they resort to insult.

You, for example, keep coming back to make comments on this thread but NONE of your words so far have weighed in on the actual topic, nor do I expect they will. Again, that's OK. I think it provides further confirmation of the falseness of PreTrib doctrine...and hopefully the small handful of people who look in on this thread will thus have food for thought.

But like I said, the topic of the thread lies before you. Let's start over anytime you like. I extend to you a 'do over' -- LOL! Feel free to weigh in. I have proposed PreTrib unravels on this one point alone...where it fails to uphold "no one knows the day of hour".

If PreTrib insists (as it does) that this described "gathering" in the Olivet Discourse occurs at the exact completion of 1260 days...that is a point-blank false interpretation which, in turn, indicates PreTrib is a point-blank false doctrine.

If you want to return here to have a discussion, I will go in a bit deeper to show how this one error creates a domino effect which causes the PreTrib 'house of cards' to collapse. I will do this in any case, with or without any more comments from anyone...kind of as a set of "closing thoughts" for this thread.

I think having an incorrect view of the Bible (which I don't believe I have) is different from having some incorrect ideas about teachings in the Bible (which I think everyone has, especially me).

my first post here (#4) was a question, which I thought related to the topic.

when I realized you thought differently, I apologized (#14).

I believe every post I've made since then was in response to a response of yours.

in any end times discussion, I think it's really interesting to see how it will affect what actions I take today. I thought you would be interested in that, too.

so, if you are, please let me know.

if I don't hear from you, then Peace be with you, and I love you as a brother in the Lord!

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I think having an incorrect view of the Bible (which I don't believe I have) is different from having some incorrect ideas about teachings in the Bible (which I think everyone has, especially me).

No, it's the same thing. Having incorrect views about the Bible is the same thing as believing incorrect teachings about the Bible. What is this odd debate you're trying to have over the phrasing...other than to delay a discussion over the thread topic?

You stated earlier that it didn't matter whether one was post-trib or pre-trib...that there were no consequences for either view, no matter which one might be incorrect. I rebutted that claim. How and where did you veer off from your own chosen side-topic? Having an incorrect view of the Bible on this issue has absolutely dire consequences...as is the case with virtually any misinterpretation of Scripture.

in any end times discussion, I think it's really interesting to see how it will affect what actions I take today. I thought you would be interested in that, too.

Right. You had previously feigned interest in this topic...I courteously addressed this "interest" of yours...and you and Popeye found it wonderfully hilarious. What else was there to go over? You want to cover the same ground a second time, or something? What exact "question" would you have for me?

And I say again, since folks like you and Popeye (and others here) have decided the Post-trib/PreWrath mentality of spiritual preparedness and even possibly physical preparedness is rather dubious and amusing (as you've made quite clear)...how about you humor me and demonstrate to me why PreWrath is such an easy thing to slam-dunk.

We could start with, for example....oh, I don't know...maybe the "day or the hour" issue of the Olivet Discourse? Oh yes...that was the original thread topic! What a great idea.

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

No, it's the same thing. Having incorrect views about the Bible is the same thing as believing incorrect teachings about the Bible. What is this odd debate you're trying to have over the phrasing...other than to delay a discussion over the thread topic?

You stated earlier that it didn't matter whether one was post-trib or pre-trib...that there were no consequences for either view, no matter which one might be incorrect. I rebutted that claim. How and where did you veer off from your own chosen side-topic? Having an incorrect view of the Bible on this issue has absolutely dire consequences...as is the case with virtually any misinterpretation of Scripture.

Right. You had previously feigned interest in this topic...I courteously addressed this "interest" of yours...and you and Popeye found it wonderfully hilarious. What else was there to go over? You want to cover the same ground a second time, or something? What exact "question" would you have for me?

And I say again, since folks like you and Popeye (and others here) have decided the Post-trib/PreWrath mentality of spiritual preparedness and even possibly physical preparedness is rather dubious and amusing (as you've made quite clear)...how about you humor me and demonstrate to me why PreWrath is such an easy thing to slam-dunk.

We could start with, for example....oh, I don't know...maybe the "day or the hour" issue of the Olivet Discourse? Oh yes...that was the original thread topic! What a great idea.

I think we are all encouraged to

2 PETER 3:18 grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

if we are all growing, then we cannot currently know everything there is to know about the Bible. So, I think everyone has at least some incorrect ideas about teachings in the Bible.





I don't believe I said that there were no consequences for either view of post-trib or pre-trib. I believe I wrote was, 'a sincere Christian who believes in a pretrib rapture will continue to live the same way if they change to posttrib.'




the essential question I'm posing is how will post-trib or pre-trib views affect what actions a sincere Christian takes today, especially with respect to specific actions.

Examples: how many days, if any, of food is stored, and whether it's stored at one's house, car, or remote location.

what types of weapons one will have stored, and whether they are stored at one's house, car, or remote location.

and what purpose, specifically related to end-times prophecies, these stores are expected to have?

example: the food will be used so that one will still be able to eat for the 3.5 years of the great trib without receiving the mark of the beast.



I don't understand your question 'how about you humor me and demonstrate to me why PreWrath is such an easy thing to slam-dunk.'



over the years, I've been exposed to loads of different end time layouts, and spent years trying to figure out which one fits all the passages perfectly. Then it hit me that whichever layout I used, I would still live the same way today.

but the issue of end times layouts seemed really important to you, so I thought maybe I'd missed something.

That's why I asked you how it was important, meaning, how it will change what specific actions I take today.

Peace, man!

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

if we are all growing, then we cannot currently know everything there is to know about the Bible. So, I think everyone has at least some incorrect ideas about teachings in the Bible.

I would say that is a very odd philosophy. To simply declare "I have wrong views somewhere...just don't know where". God's Word is meant to be understood, for one thing.

So you might want to hurry up and try to figure out which "ideas" those might be...because if you have some "wrong views" in critical areas, you're in a world of trouble. That's why I keep inviting you to scrutinize your PreTrib doctrine yet you keep demurring.

I don't believe I said that there were no consequences for either view of post-trib or pre-trib. I believe I wrote was, 'a sincere Christian who believes in a pretrib rapture will continue to live the same way if they change to posttrib.'

You need to read your own statement here back to yourself: You're claiming PostTribbers and PreTribbers should behave exactly the same way...and yet, you're ALSO claiming you've never denied there ARE consequences for having an incorrect view. Which is it? As I asked previously -- which of your two views do you believe?

the essential question I'm posing is how will post-trib or pre-trib views affect what actions a sincere Christian takes today, especially with respect to specific actions.

If Jesus forewarns of the need to "fill our lamps with oil" in preparation for the darkness...compliant PostTribbers will fill their lamps with oil, and PreTribbers will not.

Examples: how many days, if any, of food is stored, and whether it's stored at one's house, car, or remote location.
what types of weapons one will have stored, and whether they are stored at one's house, car, or remote location

Bro, why do you keep bringing this up? You already asked this question...I answered the question as far as what I happen to have set aside, guided only by my own common sense and the resources I happen to have available to me...and then you and Popeye chortled over the answer.

There is no passage of Scripture which give specific guidelines...just as there is no passage of Scripture which gives specific instructions on how to repair your TV. Therefore, must all "TV repair" and 'doomsday' prepping be ungodly and unbiblical...if I'm reading yours and Popeye's chortling correctly.

As I had previously said, your arbitrary 'sanctioning' of a week's worth or month's worth of provisions versus my 'laughable' six month's worth...is just that - arbitrary. And odd.

example: the food will be used so that one will still be able to eat for the 3.5 years of the great trib without receiving the mark of the beast.

The time of "Great Tribulation" will be somewhat less than 3.5 years. It will begin at the time of the Abomination of Desolation and will end at the appearance of the cosmic signs (the sun, moon, stars)...well before the end of 3.5 years. It might last somewhere in the 2 to 3 year range.

I don't understand your question 'how about you humor me and demonstrate to me why PreWrath is such an easy thing to slam-dunk.'

(?) What's with your feigning again? I'm simply saying go ahead and attempt to rebut PreWrath. Not sure why you would pretend not to understand the statement. What's that all about - lol? You and Popeye (and a few others here) have found divergences from PreTrib to be so 'obviously' incorrect as to be literally amusing...'chortle-worthy'. I'm just saying...I'd love to see you take your PreTrib doctrine out for a spin. But you keep demurring.

but the issue of end times layouts seemed really important to you, so I thought maybe I'd missed something.

That's pretty close to out-and-out dishonesty on your part. I had not brought up the subject nor did I have any plans to mention ANY details of whatever resources I might happen to have. But you feigned interest in what specific provisions I might have set aside...as though you were looking for 'guidance'. You literally said "what are you "advising". I'm surprised you didn't tack on "oh Rabbi" -- lol. Stinky stuff.

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

You have to explain what you mean by prejudgment dimension, dynamic etc. The body of Christ cannot be found in prophecy. Hence why Paul causes it a mystery. That which is a mystery cannot also be prophecy. Prophecy is revealed, mystery is kept secret. And the idea that it was in the scriptures, just not known about doesn't work either, because the verses say HID IN GOD. Not HID IN SCRITPURES and TYPES. The mystery revealed to Paul was KEPT SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN. Hid in God. Not made known. Had it been known, Christ would NOT have been crucified 2 Cor 2.6-8.

IOW,you have no postjudgement MODEL with Noah or lot,or even baby Jesus. All left PRIOR TO judgement.

You guys need a postjudgement DELIVERANCE model.

Just one of many ,many dynamics that reveal postrib doctrine is poorly thought out,and defending it is a not a pretty job.

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I would say that is a very odd philosophy. To simply declare "I have wrong views somewhere...just don't know where". God's Word is meant to be understood, for one thing.

So you might want to hurry up and try to figure out which "ideas" those might be...because if you have some "wrong views" in critical areas, you're in a world of trouble. That's why I keep inviting you to scrutinize your PreTrib doctrine yet you keep demurring.

You need to read your own statement here back to yourself: You're claiming PostTribbers and PreTribbers should behave exactly the same way...and yet, you're ALSO claiming you've never denied there ARE consequences for having an incorrect view. Which is it? As I asked previously -- which of your two views do you believe?

If Jesus forewarns of the need to "fill our lamps with oil" in preparation for the darkness...compliant PostTribbers will fill their lamps with oil, and PreTribbers will not.

Bro, why do you keep bringing this up? You already asked this question...I answered the question as far as what I happen to have set aside, guided only by my own common sense and the resources I happen to have available to me...and then you and Popeye chortled over the answer.

There is no passage of Scripture which give specific guidelines...just as there is no passage of Scripture which gives specific instructions on how to repair your TV. Therefore, must all "TV repair" and 'doomsday' prepping be ungodly and unbiblical...if I'm reading yours and Popeye's chortling correctly.

As I had previously said, your arbitrary 'sanctioning' of a week's worth or month's worth of provisions versus my 'laughable' six month's worth...is just that - arbitrary. And odd.

The time of "Great Tribulation" will be somewhat less than 3.5 years. It will begin at the time of the Abomination of Desolation and will end at the appearance of the cosmic signs (the sun, moon, stars)...well before the end of 3.5 years. It might last somewhere in the 2 to 3 year range.

(?) What's with your feigning again? I'm simply saying go ahead and attempt to rebut PreWrath. Not sure why you would pretend not to understand the statement. What's that all about - lol? You and Popeye (and a few others here) have found divergences from PreTrib to be so 'obviously' incorrect as to be literally amusing...'chortle-worthy'. I'm just saying...I'd love to see you take your PreTrib doctrine out for a spin. But you keep demurring.

That's pretty close to out-and-out dishonesty on your part. I had not brought up the subject nor did I have any plans to mention ANY details of whatever resources I might happen to have. But you feigned interest in what specific provisions I might have set aside...as though you were looking for 'guidance'. You literally said "what are you "advising". I'm surprised you didn't tack on "oh Rabbi" -- lol. Stinky stuff.

".......fill your lamps in preparation for darkness....."

1) the ten virgins were in zero persecution.
2) the 5foolish had enough all the way till the very end ("our lamps have gone out")
3) the ac kills all w/o the mark,further making "prepping to stay" silly for both sides of the debate.
4) you would have to believe that the 5 foolish also wanted the key ingredient TO LEAVE WITH JESUS is this silly post trib "prepping"

Jesus is saying" go get provisions and I will take you to the marriage chamber,and if you run out,even at the very end,I will reject you"?

Man is that misplaced or what?

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I would say that is a very odd philosophy. To simply declare "I have wrong views somewhere...just don't know where". God's Word is meant to be understood, for one thing.

So you might want to hurry up and try to figure out which "ideas" those might be...because if you have some "wrong views" in critical areas, you're in a world of trouble. That's why I keep inviting you to scrutinize your PreTrib doctrine yet you keep demurring.

You need to read your own statement here back to yourself: You're claiming PostTribbers and PreTribbers should behave exactly the same way...and yet, you're ALSO claiming you've never denied there ARE consequences for having an incorrect view. Which is it? As I asked previously -- which of your two views do you believe?

If Jesus forewarns of the need to "fill our lamps with oil" in preparation for the darkness...compliant PostTribbers will fill their lamps with oil, and PreTribbers will not.

Bro, why do you keep bringing this up? You already asked this question...I answered the question as far as what I happen to have set aside, guided only by my own common sense and the resources I happen to have available to me...and then you and Popeye chortled over the answer.

There is no passage of Scripture which give specific guidelines...just as there is no passage of Scripture which gives specific instructions on how to repair your TV. Therefore, must all "TV repair" and 'doomsday' prepping be ungodly and unbiblical...if I'm reading yours and Popeye's chortling correctly.

As I had previously said, your arbitrary 'sanctioning' of a week's worth or month's worth of provisions versus my 'laughable' six month's worth...is just that - arbitrary. And odd.

The time of "Great Tribulation" will be somewhat less than 3.5 years. It will begin at the time of the Abomination of Desolation and will end at the appearance of the cosmic signs (the sun, moon, stars)...well before the end of 3.5 years. It might last somewhere in the 2 to 3 year range.

(?) What's with your feigning again? I'm simply saying go ahead and attempt to rebut PreWrath. Not sure why you would pretend not to understand the statement. What's that all about - lol? You and Popeye (and a few others here) have found divergences from PreTrib to be so 'obviously' incorrect as to be literally amusing...'chortle-worthy'. I'm just saying...I'd love to see you take your PreTrib doctrine out for a spin. But you keep demurring.

That's pretty close to out-and-out dishonesty on your part. I had not brought up the subject nor did I have any plans to mention ANY details of whatever resources I might happen to have. But you feigned interest in what specific provisions I might have set aside...as though you were looking for 'guidance'. You literally said "what are you "advising". I'm surprised you didn't tack on "oh Rabbi" -- lol. Stinky stuff.

PROVERBS 1:6 to understand a proverb and a saying, the words of the wise and their riddles.

I think the word of God is meant to be read with wisdom and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. imo, it takes a lifetime.


*****************

I think there is a difference in the words 'behaviour' and 'consequences'.

****************

what does the oil represent? what would be some concrete examples?


thank you for your responses earlier a out what provisions you have set aside.

where are they kept? home, car, remote location?

what is the purpose of your provisions? general readiness for societal collapse of any kind, or specifically the trib?

a week's worth of groceries to cope with a power outage is wise, imo.

a year's worth with the intent of surviving the trib is unwise, imo.

*****************

before I start on another journey to decide if pre or post is the most Biblical, it seemed wise to me to see what differences either view would make in my daily activities.



in order to know what activities would change and why, I asked how pre or post was important, and since responses seemed vague, I asked for specifics.


if you don't want to talk about specifics, that's fine... I'd recommend just not answering my posts. I won't hold it against you.



NUMBERS 6:24 May the Lord send his blessing on you and keep you:
NUMBERS 6:25 May the light of the Lord's face be shining on you in grace:
NUMBERS 6:26 May the Lord's approval be resting on you and may he give you peace.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I think there is a difference in the words 'behaviour' and 'consequences'.

I think you're too busy trying to be 'profound' and clipped for anyone to understand what you're saying. Oh well.

thank you for your responses earlier a out what provisions you have set aside.

where are they kept? home, car, remote location?

Again, you had previously ridiculed the idea of provisions. Tell me why you're asking for yet more details other than as some sort of (what you believer to be) subtle ridicule? I'd really be interested to know.

Why would I want to complete this 'homework assignment' of yours? Instead, how about I let you answer some of my questions?

a week's worth of groceries to cope with a power outage is wise, imo.

a year's worth with the intent of surviving the trib is unwise, imo.

Well, there you go then - lol. Why do you ask, if you already 'know'? And what scripture do you have which authorizes you to say a week's worth is "wise" and a year's worth is "unwise"?

And what is "the trib"? Are you referring to the 70th Week of Daniel...which is a 7-year period? Or are you referring to the Great Tribulation...which is a 2 to 3 year period (approximately).

And if there might be tremendous famines during the Great Tribulation, why would it be "unwise" to have provisions set aside, if one is able to do so?

before I start on another journey to decide if pre or post is the most Biblical, it seemed wise to me to see what differences either view would make in my daily activities.

Totally illogical, it seems to me. First, you find out if there IS going to be trouble...THEN you begin to think about what you could do to prepare for the trouble.

And there really is no "journey" as such. That's a typical PreTribber's perspective. You can, as my 12-year-old daughter did at one point, read through the Olivet Discourse in a mere fifteen minutes.

in order to know what activities would change and why, I asked how pre or post was important, and since responses seemed vague, I asked for specifics.

I say again, PreTribbers are disastrously and utterly unprepared for the calamities of the Great Tribulation. They're unprepared spiritually. They're unprepared emotionally and psychologically. And any physical preparation they might have in terms of physical fitness and provisions and transportation (by land or by sea, etc.) would be purely coincidental.

You keep saying that "a year's provision" would be useless against what you refer to as "the Antichrist". Where do you get this information? The Bible says many, many believers will actually survive all the way to the "gathering of the elect" described to the believers in the Olivet Discourse (Peter, James and John). How do you think these people all survived to that day?

if you don't want to talk about specifics, that's fine... I'd recommend just not answering my posts. I won't hold it against you.

Thank you for your recommendation -- lol.

NUMBERS 6:24 May the Lord send his blessing on you and keep you:
NUMBERS 6:25 May the light of the Lord's face be shining on you in grace:
NUMBERS 6:26 May the Lord's approval be resting on you and may he give you peace.

Good grief. You're pouring it on a bit thick. I can almost hear Gregorian chants in the background. Is this an attempt to make up for your earlier 'chortling'...or something?

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

".......fill your lamps in preparation for darkness....."

1) the ten virgins were in zero persecution.
2) the 5foolish had enough all the way till the very end ("our lamps have gone out")
3) the ac kills all w/o the mark,further making "prepping to stay" silly for both sides of the debate.
4) you would have to believe that the 5 foolish also wanted the key ingredient TO LEAVE WITH JESUS is this silly post trib "prepping"

Jesus is saying" go get provisions and I will take you to the marriage chamber,and if you run out,even at the very end,I will reject you"?

Man is that misplaced or what?

1) The ten virgins were about to be confronted with "darkness" which is the time of great tribulation....which, according to Jesus, IS a time of "persecution".

2) The five "foolish virgins" did NOT have enough oil. That's why they begged the other virgins for oil. (???)

3) The Antichrist does NOT "kill all w/o the mark". That's why there is this "gathering" at the end of the great tribulation: To collect all the survivors into the arms of Jesus.

4) Didn't understand your wording on #4.

I never proposed "prepping". Dan473 lured me into describing what provisions I might have, whereupon you two began to engage in this weird ridiculing and chortling. Someone happened to 'gift' my family with these 6 months of food in the form of gallon-sized cans of canned food. Also, we happen to be a family of hunters and survivalist hobbyists. There's no more to it. Give your conspiracy theories a rest.

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I think you're too busy trying to be 'profound' and clipped for anyone to understand what you're saying. Oh well.

Again, you had previously ridiculed the idea of provisions. Tell me why you're asking for yet more details other than as some sort of (what you believer to be) subtle ridicule? I'd really be interested to know.

Why would I want to complete this 'homework assignment' of yours? Instead, how about I let you answer some of my questions?

Well, there you go then - lol. Why do you ask, if you already 'know'? And what scripture do you have which authorizes you to say a week's worth is "wise" and a year's worth is "unwise"?

And what is "the trib"? Are you referring to the 70th Week of Daniel...which is a 7-year period? Or are you referring to the Great Tribulation...which is a 2 to 3 year period (approximately).

And if there might be tremendous famines during the Great Tribulation, why would it be "unwise" to have provisions set aside, if one is able to do so?

Totally illogical, it seems to me. First, you find out if there IS going to be trouble...THEN you begin to think about what you could do to prepare for the trouble.

And there really is no "journey" as such. That's a typical PreTribber's perspective. You can, as my 12-year-old daughter did at one point, read through the Olivet Discourse in a mere fifteen minutes.

I say again, PreTribbers are disastrously and utterly unprepared for the calamities of the Great Tribulation. They're unprepared spiritually. They're unprepared emotionally and psychologically. And any physical preparation they might have in terms of physical fitness and provisions and transportation (by land or by sea, etc.) would be purely coincidental.

You keep saying that "a year's provision" would be useless against what you refer to as "the Antichrist". Where do you get this information? The Bible says many, many believers will actually survive all the way to the "gathering of the elect" described to the believers in the Olivet Discourse (Peter, James and John). How do you think these people all survived to that day?

Thank you for your recommendation -- lol.

Good grief. You're pouring it on a bit thick. I can almost hear Gregorian chants in the background. Is this an attempt to make up for your earlier 'chortling'...or something?

I'm asking for more details because previous responses seemed vague, especially as to purpose.

*****************

before I start answering questions about pre or post, I would like to know how it will affect my daily activities. If you don't want to talk about details of activities, then I think we can just leave the discussion where it is, that would be fine with me.

******************

I don't already know whether a week of food or a year of food is better, it's an opinion.

I'm asking because I think it's interesting to find out what other people think. Because, I could be wrong.

I'd tend to lean towards a shorter food supply because of

MATTHEW 6:19 Make no store of wealth for yourselves on earth, where it may be turned to dust by worms and weather, and where thieves may come in by force and take it away.
MATTHEW 6:20 But make a store for yourselves in heaven, where it will not be turned to dust and where thieves do not come in to take it away:
MATTHEW 6:21 For where your wealth is, there will your heart be.

MATTHEW 6:25 So I say to you, Take no thought for your life, about food or drink, or about clothing for your body. Is not life more than food, and the body more than its clothing?


****************

trib = Great Tribulation

**************

I assume there are other prophecies in addition to the Olivet that would impact decisions... that's the journey I'm thinking of.

trouble is definitely coming (true for all times, imo), for me the question is how best to prepare for it.

*****************

I assumed the Antichrist would control pretty much everything for 3.5 years, and attempt to kill all sincere Christians during that time.

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I'll be honest with you, Matt, I dont understand how these statements fit together

'You keep saying that "a year's provision" would be useless against what you refer to as "the Antichrist". Where do you get this information? The Bible says many, many believers will actually survive all the way to the "gathering of the elect" described to the believers in the Olivet Discourse (Peter, James and John). How do you think these people all survived to that day?'

'And if there might be tremendous famines during the Great Tribulation, why would it be "unwise" to have provisions set aside, if one is able to do so?'



with


'I never proposed "prepping". Dan473 lured me into describing what provisions I might have, whereupon you two began to engage in this weird ridiculing and chortling. Someone happened to 'gift' my family with these 6 months of food in the form of gallon-sized cans of canned food. Also, we happen to be a family of hunters and survivalist hobbyists. There's no more to it. Give your conspiracy theories a rest.'

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I'll be honest with you, Matt, I dont understand how these statements fit together

'You keep saying that "a year's provision" would be useless against what you refer to as "the Antichrist". Where do you get this information? The Bible says many, many believers will actually survive all the way to the "gathering of the elect" described to the believers in the Olivet Discourse (Peter, James and John). How do you think these people all survived to that day?'

'And if there might be tremendous famines during the Great Tribulation, why would it be "unwise" to have provisions set aside, if one is able to do so?'



with


'I never proposed "prepping". Dan473 lured me into describing what provisions I might have, whereupon you two began to engage in this weird ridiculing and chortling. Someone happened to 'gift' my family with these 6 months of food in the form of gallon-sized cans of canned food. Also, we happen to be a family of hunters and survivalist hobbyists. There's no more to it. Give your conspiracy theories a rest.'

Not sure what you're struggling with. Both my statements are true and factual:

1) Would it be a good thing to have provisions set aside? Sure, it would be great! When Jesus proposes people should run for the hills when they see the gathering armies and the "abomination of desolation"...wouldn't it be nice if they had the foresight to have stashed provisions in a hiding place? Of course it would...your strange "holy hesitation" notwithstanding.

And then...

2) There is the simple fact that I was NOT proposing "prepping" in this thread. That is a fact. I wasn't interested in such a topic in this thread. This thread was about a specific topic...the way in which PreTrib completely unravels on this one aspect about the "day and hour". That is ALL I have been interested in.

You dishonestly lured me into this sidebar...regarding what I might specifically happen to have stashed away for a rainy day...with your phony "what would you advise, oh Rabbi"...whereupon you and Popeye began your chortling. Very offensive. As a courtesy, I allowed you to drag me away from my thread topic. I thought you were interested in my "advice" because that was the word you dishonestly utilized.

Quite simply, I have not been super-interested in the topic of "prepping" because my best guess is, during the great tribulation, people will have to be on the run. As I explained to Popeye...we have more or less stumbled onto these provisions I have at my home. That's all there is to it. If I could buy a property way up in the hills, put up a structure and store provisions...that would not be a bad idea. But we can't afford all of that. So...like most believers in those days, we will be flying by the seat of our pants.

I still think there may very well be all kinds of economic chaos in the run-up to the actual Great tribulation. We're currently seeing the disintegration of the world's economies...and I'm pretty sure America's turn is coming next.

The whole thing is a lot more complex than what you seem to be envisioning. You have a bit of a 'sawed off' approach....in which you apparently think (given your jaundiced view of emergency provisions) there is going to be zero crises until the actual outbreak of the Great Tribulation. Jesus foretells of many troubles leading up to the Great Tribulation.

But during the Great Tribulation, I think there may be "righteous" folks who provide secret safe haven for believers...the same way it happened during WW2. Corrie Ten Boom's book "The Hiding Place" comes to mind. In the same way Rahab the Harlot was declared righteous by God for her heroic act of faith in hiding the Israelite spies...I think many folks who hadn't been previously "Christianized" will intuitively, in a spur-of-the-moment act of de facto 'faith'...extend kindness and shelter to Christians on the run. Possibly, many "Rahabs" will obtain salvation thereby.

I think that's what Matthew 25:31-46 (the ending portion of the Olivet Discourse) is all about. The folks who offered cups of water "to the least of my brethren" survive this judgement and enter into the Kingdom. We can see two categories here: Those who are the "brethren" of Jesus...and those who offered the food and water and are just now being declared righteous.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I'm asking for more details because previous responses seemed vague, especially as to purpose.

You keep saying this. I don't know what you're talking about. If there is no scripture which speaks to whatever your questions are (and I don't know what they are -- you're too vague)...then anything anyone would say is just their opinion. I don't know what you want. You asked me about my own "provisions"...I courteously gave you the information...whereupon you and Popeye began to chortle. I don't know what else you want -- lol.

before I start answering questions about pre or post, I would like to know how it will affect my daily activities. If you don't want to talk about details of activities, then I think we can just leave the discussion where it is, that would be fine with me.

And I already addressed that. (?) I would say you have the sequence backwards. In any case, I have already given you my input. And I just gave even more insights in my post, previous to this one. What else is there to talk about??

MATTHEW 6:19 Make no store of wealth for yourselves on earth, where it may be turned to dust by worms and weather, and where thieves may come in by force and take it away.
MATTHEW 6:20 But make a store for yourselves in heaven, where it will not be turned to dust and where thieves do not come in to take it away:
MATTHEW 6:21 For where your wealth is, there will your heart be.

MATTHEW 6:25 So I say to you, Take no thought for your life, about food or drink, or about clothing for your body. Is not life more than food, and the body more than its clothing?

I would say you're on the verge of becoming 'hyper-literal'.

A hyper-literal interpretation would not allow you to have any food stored in your refrigerator and freezer...nor would you be allowed to have a savings account. Again, I think it is this PreTrib mindset. The idea of going through the calamities of the Great Trib is so 'unreal' to PreTribbers...that they tend (as you are doing here) to 'spiritualize' everything.

Again, this is what was behind yours and Popeyes 'chortling' -- the whole thing seems so unreal, after a lifetime of PreTrib propaganda. So again, I don't know what your questions are. If you think it is "unholy" to have emergency provisions...you've got your mind made up. Again and again I ask -- What do you want from me??

I assume there are other prophecies in addition to the Olivet that would impact decisions... that's the journey I'm thinking of.

trouble is definitely coming (true for all times, imo), for me the question is how best to prepare for it.

As I said before, Bible prophecy is so simple, a child (my child, in fact) can understand it.

I think one of the keys is to imagine what the disciples (Peter, James, John, Andrew) would say if you could take them aside...let's say, 10, 15, 20 years into their earthly ministry...and ask them "do you still believe what Jesus told you when He said you should live with an expectation of encountering the abomination of desolation and the subsequent great tribulation...followed by the glorious "gathering" of the saints??"

Why would Peter, James and John say anything other than "yes, we still believe what Jesus told us that day. Why would we believe anything else? Why would we believe in this "PreTrib rapture" you speak of...and which flatly contradicts what Jesus told us??

Whereupon many, many of today's American Evangelicals would exclaim "but wait, you guys are the leaders of the Christian movement. You HAVE to be PreTrib. So say all the top guys in the 21st century -- John MacArthur, David Jeremiah, Tim Lahaye, Hal Lindsey, Dave Hunt, Chuck Swindoll, on and on."

Peter: "All due respect but...what would I care what these 'big wigs' claim, compared to what the Lord of Glory told us on the day He delivered the Olivet Discourse??"


The whole topic is as simple as pie. And the Olivet Discourse opens up understanding of the Book of Revelation...like a can of peaches. It's like somebody turned on all the lights. I'm probably going to start a separate thread about it.

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Not sure what you're struggling with. Both my statements are true and factual:

1) Would it be a good thing to have provisions set aside? Sure, it would be great! When Jesus proposes people should run for the hills when they see the gathering armies and the "abomination of desolation"...wouldn't it be nice if they had the foresight to have stashed provisions in a hiding place? Of course it would...your strange "holy hesitation" notwithstanding.

And then...

2) There is the simple fact that I was NOT proposing "prepping" in this thread. That is a fact. I wasn't interested in such a topic in this thread. This thread was about a specific topic...the way in which PreTrib completely unravels on this one aspect about the "day and hour". That is ALL I have been interested in.

You dishonestly lured me into this sidebar...regarding what I might specifically happen to have stashed away for a rainy day...with your phony "what would you advise, oh Rabbi"...whereupon you and Popeye began your chortling. Very offensive. As a courtesy, I allowed you to drag me away from my thread topic. I thought you were interested in my "advice" because that was the word you dishonestly utilized.

Quite simply, I have not been super-interested in the topic of "prepping" because my best guess is, during the great tribulation, people will have to be on the run. As I explained to Popeye...we have more or less stumbled onto these provisions I have at my home. That's all there is to it. If I could buy a property way up in the hills, put up a structure and store provisions...that would not be a bad idea. But we can't afford all of that. So...like most believers in those days, we will be flying by the seat of our pants.

I still think there may very well be all kinds of economic chaos in the run-up to the actual Great tribulation. We're currently seeing the disintegration of the world's economies...and I'm pretty sure America's turn is coming next.

The whole thing is a lot more complex than what you seem to be envisioning. You have a bit of a 'sawed off' approach....in which you apparently think (given your jaundiced view of emergency provisions) there is going to be zero crises until the actual outbreak of the Great Tribulation. Jesus foretells of many troubles leading up to the Great Tribulation.

But during the Great Tribulation, I think there may be "righteous" folks who provide secret safe haven for believers...the same way it happened during WW2. Corrie Ten Boom's book "The Hiding Place" comes to mind. In the same way Rahab the Harlot was declared righteous by God for her heroic act of faith in hiding the Israelite spies...I think many folks who hadn't been previously "Christianized" will intuitively, in a spur-of-the-moment act of de facto 'faith'...extend kindness and shelter to Christians on the run. Possibly, many "Rahabs" will obtain salvation thereby.

I think that's what Matthew 25:31-46 (the ending portion of the Olivet Discourse) is all about. The folks who offered cups of water "to the least of my brethren" survive this judgement and enter into the Kingdom. We can see two categories here: Those who are the "brethren" of Jesus...and those who offered the food and water and are just now being declared righteous.

if 'in this thread', by which I understand you to mean in the op, is added to your above statements, then I can see how they fit together in post 252.

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

You keep saying this. I don't know what you're talking about. If there is no scripture which speaks to whatever your questions are (and I don't know what they are -- you're too vague)...then anything anyone would say is just their opinion. I don't know what you want. You asked me about my own "provisions"...I courteously gave you the information...whereupon you and Popeye began to chortle. I don't know what else you want -- lol.

And I already addressed that. (?) I would say you have the sequence backwards. In any case, I have already given you my input. And I just gave even more insights in my post, previous to this one. What else is there to talk about??

I would say you're on the verge of becoming 'hyper-literal'.

A hyper-literal interpretation would not allow you to have any food stored in your refrigerator and freezer...nor would you be allowed to have a savings account. Again, I think it is this PreTrib mindset. The idea of going through the calamities of the Great Trib is so 'unreal' to PreTribbers...that they tend (as you are doing here) to 'spiritualize' everything.

Again, this is what was behind yours and Popeyes 'chortling' -- the whole thing seems so unreal, after a lifetime of PreTrib propaganda. So again, I don't know what your questions are. If you think it is "unholy" to have emergency provisions...you've got your mind made up. Again and again I ask -- What do you want from me??

As I said before, Bible prophecy is so simple, a child (my child, in fact) can understand it.

I think one of the keys is to imagine what the disciples (Peter, James, John, Andrew) would say if you could take them aside...let's say, 10, 15, 20 years into their earthly ministry...and ask them "do you still believe what Jesus told you when He said you should live with an expectation of encountering the abomination of desolation and the subsequent great tribulation...followed by the glorious "gathering" of the saints??"

Why would Peter, James and John say anything other than "yes, we still believe what Jesus told us that day. Why would we believe anything else? Why would we believe in this "PreTrib rapture" you speak of...and which flatly contradicts what Jesus told us??

Whereupon many, many of today's American Evangelicals would exclaim "but wait, you guys are the leaders of the Christian movement. You HAVE to be PreTrib. So say all the top guys in the 21st century -- John MacArthur, David Jeremiah, Tim Lahaye, Hal Lindsey, Dave Hunt, Chuck Swindoll, on and on."

Peter: "All due respect but...what would I care what these 'big wigs' claim, compared to what the Lord of Glory told us on the day He delivered the Olivet Discourse??"


The whole topic is as simple as pie. And the Olivet Discourse opens up understanding of the Book of Revelation...like a can of peaches. It's like somebody turned on all the lights. I'm probably going to start a separate thread about it.

I think my questions were clear and specific.

if you don't understand what I'm asking, or if the questions seemed vague to you, then we're just not able to communicate on this subject.

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

And peace be with you, MatttooFor!

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I think my questions were clear and specific.

if you don't understand what I'm asking, or if the questions seemed vague to you, then we're just not able to communicate on this subject.

A very strange and virtually dishonest comment. I didn't say I didn't understand you. I just don't know what exactly you want from me. The questions you're asking have no specific scripture backing. They are matters of common sense. And each person has their own version of common sense. You have already stated you think it "unwise" to set aside extra provisions as we see the world's economies beginning to collapse. Suit yourself. (??)

I'm not understanding why you're seeking my advice when you've already chortled over my advice. Despite that, I made quite an effort and made many comments in my last couple of posts and another post directed at "Popeye". So, in addition to the dishonesty, it also smacks of an attempt at disrespect...when I make a good effort and provide all manner of comments and insights and you just brush it all aside and come back with this essentially dishonest response. It's the same thing you did originally...in seeking my "advice" and then slam-dunking my "advice". You really are an odd bird (at best). If you want to bow out of a discussion, then just bow out. Don't do it by dishonest means. My goodness. LOL

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

And peace be with you, MatttooFor!

Right. I had just previously expressed a bit of consternation over your overly flowery, syrupy "papal" blessings which you pour on about an inch thick...and yet you shove one more of these at me. Obviously therefore, the intent is not to be pleasant but to be the opposite. I checked a sampling of some of your other posts and I don't see you ending any of those posts with these flowery "blessings"...which again, seems meant to be vaguely insulting...as though one must placate the 'angry bear' when having discussion with me. All you have to do is be reasonably respectful and non-duplicitous...and presto, problem solved! It seems quite silly to engage in pile-on chortling and participate in the slapping/smacking/mocking festival that has characterized many of the comments towards me on this thread...then follow it up with phony, flowery religious prose.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

To summarize this thread -- PreTrib incorrectly claims the "gathering" described by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse occurs after exactly 1260 days...even though Jesus specifically states no one (except the Father) will know the "day or hour" of this gathering.

The problem for PreTrib doctrine is that it MUST view the Olivet Discourse as a "Jewish" passage...MUST view it as being only directed at "Jews" because otherwise PreTrib obliterated.

Jesus is clearly describing a post-"great tribulation" supernatural translation, i.e. a "rapture". But PreTrib MUST argue this passages only applies to Jews.

Nevermind the fact that Peter, James and John were already believers at the time of the Olivet Discourse. So...how could they possibly end up inside the events of the 70th Week? If there were a "PreTrib" rapture and they had lived to the end times...they would therefore have been raptured in this alleged "PreTrib" rapture. So why would Jesus be forewarning them to look out for the abomination and the subsequent great tribulation??

Thus does the PreTrib approach to the Olivet Discourse make absolutely ZERO sense.

The fact of the matter is...the Olivet Discourse IS what it appears to be -- a simple, straightforward passage directed at believers. Indeed, the very text itself specifies the Olivet Discourse is directed at "the disciples"...i.e. believers...i.e. Christians.

As I have earlier suggested people should do in order to clarify the issues in their thinking -- imagine being able to interview these disciples 15 or 20 years later and deep into their earthly ministry...and ask them if they still are heeding Jesus' words to them from the Olivet Discourse:

"Do you guys still believe Jesus' words to you from that day when He said you needed to live with an expectation of encountering the abomination of desolation and the subsequent great tribulation?"

Peter, James, John: "Why would we NOT still heed His words? What other teaching has come along that would contradict His teaching...and how could there be such a thing as a teaching which contradicts Jesus?"