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A

Aerg

Guest
#1
First of all, I should disclose that I am an atheist, also that I am not a troll and have the utmost respect for everyone's beliefs here. I was a Christian years ago and came to a point where I could no longer believe. However I still miss the zeal and reassurance that I had at the time. A sort of disagree with Lawrence Kraus and Richard Dawkins in that I do think a finite existence without purpose is fundamentally pointless, yes we can do things in the intervening period and help people but I'm a reluctant nihilst as a result of my current understanding of life and the universe. I can't pretend to believe something I don't and I'm very well educated on the pertinent subjects. My question is, does anyone here have any tips or experiences that are inately human and do not require a hope in the supernatural to be sustained? Is there anything you would say, you have learned from your teachings and in your life that demonstrates meaning outside of ideas about the second coming and mansions in heaven and God's plan? My current modus operandus is to just get on with things despite how ultimately hollow it is - I'm not proselytizing my existential outlook, I just find it hard to see it all as anything more than an irrelevant lark. Like I said, I'm not here to criticise or challenge anyone's faith, I'll happily dicuss anyhing with anyone though and anyone is welcome to challenge or ask me anything. The question may even be alien in the fact that, I suppose I'm asking, have you learnt anything about approaching life that has given you meaning that it would stand on its own if God and fate etc. did not exist?
 
Aug 16, 2016
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#2
Welcome aerg, Do you believe in morality ? If so where did it originate, mankind didn't create it. You can love people right? Mankind didn't create love either all of these things came from God.
 
A

Aerg

Guest
#3
I believe morality originated in concert with us evolving into social animals. I think love is inate. mankind didn't create jealousy or lust or love or anything per se - I think they are by products of our evolution. Selective pressures can easily explain such traits as philanthropy and, by extension, morality.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#4
First of all, I should disclose that I am an atheist, also that I am not a troll and have the utmost respect for everyone's beliefs here. I was a Christian years ago and came to a point where I could no longer believe. However I still miss the zeal and reassurance that I had at the time. A sort of disagree with Lawrence Kraus and Richard Dawkins in that I do think a finite existence without purpose is fundamentally pointless, yes we can do things in the intervening period and help people but I'm a reluctant nihilst as a result of my current understanding of life and the universe. I can't pretend to believe something I don't and I'm very well educated on the pertinent subjects. My question is, does anyone here have any tips or experiences that are inately human and do not require a hope in the supernatural to be sustained? Is there anything you would say, you have learned from your teachings and in your life that demonstrates meaning outside of ideas about the second coming and mansions in heaven and God's plan? My current modus operandus is to just get on with things despite how ultimately hollow it is - I'm not proselytizing my existential outlook, I just find it hard to see it all as anything more than an irrelevant lark. Like I said, I'm not here to criticise or challenge anyone's faith, I'll happily dicuss anyhing with anyone though and anyone is welcome to challenge or ask me anything. The question may even be alien in the fact that, I suppose I'm asking, have you learnt anything about approaching life that has given you meaning that it would stand on its own if God and fate etc. did not exist?
Quote" My current modus operandus is to just get on with things despite how ultimately hollow it is "

And there it is.This is the life of an atheist.Life is hollow.We live,we die. What made you stop believing? I suggest you revisit the God question. Check out Lee Strobel books,he has several good reads on the subject. Also CS Lewis. You have a God shaped hole that needs to be filled. You'll never be happy until you do.
 
Aug 16, 2016
2,184
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#5
I believe morality originated in concert with us evolving into social animals. I think love is inate. mankind didn't create jealousy or lust or love or anything per se - I think they are by products of our evolution. Selective pressures can easily explain such traits as philanthropy and, by extension, morality.
So you believe mankind came from animals like apes right? Why are there no more animals evolving into humans
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,455
3,503
113
#6
First of all, I should disclose that I am an atheist, also that I am not a troll and have the utmost respect for everyone's beliefs here. I was a Christian years ago and came to a point where I could no longer believe. However I still miss the zeal and reassurance that I had at the time. A sort of disagree with Lawrence Kraus and Richard Dawkins in that I do think a finite existence without purpose is fundamentally pointless, yes we can do things in the intervening period and help people but I'm a reluctant nihilst as a result of my current understanding of life and the universe. I can't pretend to believe something I don't and I'm very well educated on the pertinent subjects. My question is, does anyone here have any tips or experiences that are inately human and do not require a hope in the supernatural to be sustained? Is there anything you would say, you have learned from your teachings and in your life that demonstrates meaning outside of ideas about the second coming and mansions in heaven and God's plan? My current modus operandus is to just get on with things despite how ultimately hollow it is - I'm not proselytizing my existential outlook, I just find it hard to see it all as anything more than an irrelevant lark. Like I said, I'm not here to criticise or challenge anyone's faith, I'll happily dicuss anyhing with anyone though and anyone is welcome to challenge or ask me anything. The question may even be alien in the fact that, I suppose I'm asking, have you learnt anything about approaching life that has given you meaning that it would stand on its own if God and fate etc. did not exist?
Welcome aboard CC Aerg and i hope you racieve the correct answers and may the Holy Spirit make you know when you have recieved a correct answer..

"""My question is, does anyone here have any tips or experiences that are inately human and do not require a hope in the supernatural to be sustained?"""

Wish i could understand your question """inately human""" I would have to get something like an example of what you think is inately human before i could attempt to answer this one..

""""""Is there anything you would say, you have learned from your teachings and in your life that demonstrates meaning outside of ideas about the second coming and mansions in heaven and God's plan?""""

Well i have learned fire burns and ice is cold and probably 100,000 other things that are not linked to The second coming of the LORD Jesus Christ and Mansions in Heaven.. Not sure why you are asking about that???

"""""have you learnt anything about approaching life that has given you meaning that it would stand on its own if God and fate etc. did not exist?"""""

Oh good a question that is clear and straighforward to my mind :D.. Answer No.. If God did not exist i would end my own life within 24 hours.
 
A

Aerg

Guest
#7
My appologies. I should have started with, hello Prynce and thank you for your reply. There is quite a substantial body of work regarding the evolutionary origins of altruism. I mentioned Dawkins before - chapter 12 of his book 'The Selfish Gene' gives a splendid account of reciprocation in the animal kingdom. Reciprocation is sometimes called the gold standard of morality and it also has biblical equivalents. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. You can write programs to simulate cooperating behaviour in populations and track the progress. The characteristic emerges through pure iteration and mathematics.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#8
So you believe mankind came from animals like apes right? Why are there no more animals evolving into humans

And why so few transitional fossils?
 
Aug 16, 2016
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#9
My appologies. I should have started with, hello Prynce and thank you for your reply. There is quite a substantial body of work regarding the evolutionary origins of altruism. I mentioned Dawkins before - chapter 12 of his book 'The Selfish Gene' gives a splendid account of reciprocation in the animal kingdom. Reciprocation is sometimes called the gold standard of morality and it also has biblical equivalents. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. You can write programs to simulate cooperating behaviour in populations and track the progress. The characteristic emerges through pure iteration and mathematics.
It's alright, while you have the right to your own beliefs know that you were made in the image of God. It's the devil who wants you to believe you're nothing more than a evolved animal.
 
A

Aerg

Guest
#10
Thank you for your reply. As you know, I don't believe in God so your answer is not much use but I appreciate your answer and honesty. So there is nothing that you have learnt from the Bible and following the Christian path that has given you an outlook on life that would remain if you suddenly found out there was no Jesus and that God is a mental invention. I suppose it answers my question in that, there's no way round the fact that there is no purpose left or thing of value if you remove the deity and the whole scaffolding of Christianity. I don't envy you because I think you're wrong and I'm sure you think that about me, however; I cannot possibly accept it, it's as true to me as Spiderman or Starwars so i suppose any meaning I find will be of my own making. I find it crazy that you would end your life in 24 hours. God does not exist for me but I don't need to cease to exist on account of it. Anyway thanks again for your reply and all the best.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,994
8,696
113
#11
First of all, I should disclose that I am an atheist, also that I am not a troll and have the utmost respect for everyone's beliefs here. I was a Christian years ago and came to a point where I could no longer believe. However I still miss the zeal and reassurance that I had at the time. A sort of disagree with Lawrence Kraus and Richard Dawkins in that I do think a finite existence without purpose is fundamentally pointless, yes we can do things in the intervening period and help people but I'm a reluctant nihilst as a result of my current understanding of life and the universe. I can't pretend to believe something I don't and I'm very well educated on the pertinent subjects. My question is, does anyone here have any tips or experiences that are inately human and do not require a hope in the supernatural to be sustained? Is there anything you would say, you have learned from your teachings and in your life that demonstrates meaning outside of ideas about the second coming and mansions in heaven and God's plan? My current modus operandus is to just get on with things despite how ultimately hollow it is - I'm not proselytizing my existential outlook, I just find it hard to see it all as anything more than an irrelevant lark. Like I said, I'm not here to criticise or challenge anyone's faith, I'll happily dicuss anyhing with anyone though and anyone is welcome to challenge or ask me anything. The question may even be alien in the fact that, I suppose I'm asking, have you learnt anything about approaching life that has given you meaning that it would stand on its own if God and fate etc. did not exist?
We have an atheist that realizes he's dead!

Understand, you will NEVER have a fulfilled life separate from God.

You may temporarily satisfy lusts and desires, but you can't fill that void ANY other way then a relationship with YOUR Creator.

Holy Father. You have brought this young man to the realization of his emptiness. We thank you for this. Please supernaturally give him a new heart and save him. In Jesus Name I pray.

In case you don't know THE GOSPEL, here it is:

God wrapped Himself in human flesh, in the form of His Son Jesus Christ, born of a woman, conceived by the Holy Spirit. Suffered. Was crucified. Died. Was buried. Was raised to life on the third day, according to the Scriptures.

Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised Him to life, and you will be saved. And He will give you life abundantly here. Now. Not stuff, but fulfillment.
 
Aug 16, 2016
2,184
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#12
Thank you for your reply. As you know, I don't believe in God so your answer is not much use but I appreciate your answer and honesty. So there is nothing that you have learnt from the Bible and following the Christian path that has given you an outlook on life that would remain if you suddenly found out there was no Jesus and that God is a mental invention. I suppose it answers my question in that, there's no way round the fact that there is no purpose left or thing of value if you remove the deity and the whole scaffolding of Christianity. I don't envy you because I think you're wrong and I'm sure you think that about me, however; I cannot possibly accept it, it's as true to me as Spiderman or Starwars so i suppose any meaning I find will be of my own making. I find it crazy that you would end your life in 24 hours. God does not exist for me but I don't need to cease to exist on account of it. Anyway thanks again for your reply and all the best.
Did you ever get on your knees and ask God to reveal himself so you can have faith. Often atheist wont even do that & follow another Godless person. The scriptures talk about the blind leading the blind. I understand you may not believe but you will stand before God on judgement day, no one will escape that. But your welcome
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,455
3,503
113
#13
Thank you for your reply. As you know, I don't believe in God so your answer is not much use but I appreciate your answer and honesty. So there is nothing that you have learnt from the Bible and following the Christian path that has given you an outlook on life that would remain if you suddenly found out there was no Jesus and that God is a mental invention. I suppose it answers my question in that, there's no way round the fact that there is no purpose left or thing of value if you remove the deity and the whole scaffolding of Christianity. I don't envy you because I think you're wrong and I'm sure you think that about me, however; I cannot possibly accept it, it's as true to me as Spiderman or Starwars so i suppose any meaning I find will be of my own making. I find it crazy that you would end your life in 24 hours. God does not exist for me but I don't need to cease to exist on account of it. Anyway thanks again for your reply and all the best.
I strongly suggest that you indicate who you are replying to by including their name in your reply.. Things can get very chaotic and a lot of misunderstanding ensue when people do not know if the reply is to them or to someone else.. You seem to be answering different people here all in one post..
 
Mar 23, 2017
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#14
Hmmmm, interesting question. If I assume God, destiny, etcetera, does not exist then I'd say the meaning in life is pretty much meaningless. Though at the same time even that doesn't really stand on its own if I just ascribed meaningless vanity to the meaning of life. How can I believe in meaninglessness as a meaning?

Sort of a paradox I guess.

Since in truth there can be no paradoxes I guess I would have to either rethink the assumption or rethink the conclusion if I want to find the truth. But then there are additional problems to that.

If I rethink the assumption and suppose God, the Bible narrative, destiny, a higher power, an orderly universe, etc. exists then I can't really provide a conclusion of there being a meaning that can stand on its own outside of them.

If I rethink my conclusion instead and ascribe a meaning to life such as anything from emotions and actions (love, hate, war, peace, etc), to a theory like evolution or reincarnation or self-determinism, to some great cosmic philosophy like big bang or aliens or astrology; then I'm pretty much establishing a higher power or a destined order of things, which would then negate the assumption that such things do not exist.

Quite a conundrum! I suppose I would have to concede that there is no real logical answer in truth to the question without either discarding the assumption or the conclusion. Though it's amusing to think about I guess.
 
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A

Aerg

Guest
#15
Hi Chokmahiel,
Thank you for your response. If it's meaningless, then it's meaningless, that doesn't make it 'the meaning' so there is no paradox. I think you're getting lost in semantics. Also you're not ascribing a higher power by ascerting that on the basis of the (very strong) evidence there was a big bang or evolution by natural selection. The evidence for evolution is incontrivertible and the evidence for the big bang is so strong that God would have had to fabricate the evidence for it to wind us up.
 
Mar 23, 2017
474
3
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#16
Hi Chokmahiel,
Thank you for your response. If it's meaningless, then it's meaningless, that doesn't make it 'the meaning' so there is no paradox. I think you're getting lost in semantics. Also you're not ascribing a higher power by ascerting that on the basis of the (very strong) evidence there was a big bang or evolution by natural selection. The evidence for evolution is incontrivertible and the evidence for the big bang is so strong that God would have had to fabricate the evidence for it to wind us up.
Well if the question is if there is any meaning in life outside of God, a higher power, destiny, etc. and the answer is meaningless, then there is no meaning. There's a lot of truth in semantics, it is after all the study of the meanings.

Well if I say ascribe evolution or big bang as a meaning of life that creates a destiny. For example it be the destiny of apes to evolve into humans, or it be the destiny of earth to form after swirling around as bits of dust around the sun for however long. This would create a logical destiny for humans to evolve into cashewoids or for the earth to merge with the moon or whatever celestial body. So then if there is a destiny then I cannot truly have a meaning in life that is outside of destiny.

Also one could point out in those scenarios there'd then be higher power/s like with the big bang you'd be making theoretical physics into a higher power, or even the universe itself into a higher power. In evolution you'd be making either the first organism a higher power, or nature into a higher power. So then we still can't conclude a meaning outside of a higher power because then we have ruined the assumption by ascribing a higher power or a destiny.

As for evolution and whether it's real or not, I think that is a whole vast other topic which you could explore further on other topics on here. Personally I don't really buy it. They change the theory of it too much and I don't really see any evidence for it and all the evidence I have learned stands pretty firmly against it, even if I don't fall back on the Bible.
 
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A

Aerg

Guest
#17
Thank you PennEd,

I never said I realise I'm dead. I'm an honest atheist and merely stated that the preponderance of evidence suggests that we are indeed uncreated anomalies - that's not to say we were burped out of nothing or occured by random chance but that the laws of physics and chemistry can fully explain how sentient moody lifeforms such as ourselves can be honed and polished via the indifferent and merciless razor of natural selection. I'm probably different to several other atheists in that I think it's all a bit lamentable and forlorn. I am in awe of nature but it is not such a beautiful thing. It's hideous in some of its details, that would be true if there were a God or not. A God would by necessity be culpable though. I could go off on arguments about theodicy and the Epicurean paradox here but I don't want to give you the impression that my non-belief hinges on a single thing. I honestly think I could write a 1000 word essay off the top of my head on why Christianity is incorrect. Yes, I do know the gospel. If you think that being aware of the ultimate futility of existence equates to death then I also think that about you - I just think you'll have a hopeful delusion journey to the same nowhere as me. However, I did say I wasn't after salvation and I know people are praying for me etc. I really appreciate that you care that much and I know that it's very real to you guys and your motivations are entirerly altruistic. I think you're misguided but lovely for reaching out in a selfless magnanimous way. Thank you.
 
A

Aerg

Guest
#18
Hi PrynceNY,
The fossil record absolutely testifies to its voracity. There are a plethora of transitional fossils; I suspect you've been lied to. The evidence from fossils is overwhelming, obviously there is also the evidence form taxonomy, genetics, anatomical parahomology, molecular divergence, morphological observantions etc. etc. The comment about why are there no more animals evolving into humans show a deep misunderstanding of evolution and its mechanisms. I mean no offence by that but it's a very ill-informed question. It presuposes that hominid forms are the goal of evolution. Evolution is a blind process that works by adaptation. Like I said, it is mercilless. Over 99% of all species are extinct. Animals won't evolve into humans but they will evolve to suit their surroundings. Horse shoe crabs have barely evolved since the cambrian because there was no selective pressure to change. Evolution isn't trying to make better organisms - the harsh reality of life just kills off everything that can't breed or escape.
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#19
First of all, I should disclose that I am an atheist, also that I am not a troll and have the utmost respect for everyone's beliefs here. I was a Christian years ago and came to a point where I could no longer believe. However I still miss the zeal and reassurance that I had at the time. A sort of disagree with Lawrence Kraus and Richard Dawkins in that I do think a finite existence without purpose is fundamentally pointless, yes we can do things in the intervening period and help people but I'm a reluctant nihilst as a result of my current understanding of life and the universe. I can't pretend to believe something I don't and I'm very well educated on the pertinent subjects. My question is, does anyone here have any tips or experiences that are inately human and do not require a hope in the supernatural to be sustained? Is there anything you would say, you have learned from your teachings and in your life that demonstrates meaning outside of ideas about the second coming and mansions in heaven and God's plan? My current modus operandus is to just get on with things despite how ultimately hollow it is - I'm not proselytizing my existential outlook, I just find it hard to see it all as anything more than an irrelevant lark. Like I said, I'm not here to criticise or challenge anyone's faith, I'll happily dicuss anyhing with anyone though and anyone is welcome to challenge or ask me anything. The question may even be alien in the fact that, I suppose I'm asking, have you learnt anything about approaching life that has given you meaning that it would stand on its own if God and fate etc. did not exist?
Actually the opposite. I went through a period of questioning all of my Christian beliefs years ago. Or any spiritual beliefs. I made a purposeful choice to 'wipe the slate clean'. The funny thing was once i decided to do that my default wasn't 'there is no God' or 'nothing spiritual exists'. A little time passed before i realized i, just by nature, never gave the idea a real thought.
But wanting this to be a genuine start i decided i was going all the way to atheist. I spent a few years working my way back to God and the Christian faith. But my 'atheism' couldn't last a day. I had already seen too much to think there's Nothing out there. That didn't mean i started believing in God, only that i was so convinced of spirituality, of some kind, that i couldn't go long not believing in some kind of non-temporal existence.
I love music. Listen to all kinds. One thing i always wonder, when looking at secular bands is 'how can they find anything to write about?'. I mean, like you, their lives revolve around nothing. Some sing for causes, politics, etc... but the bulk of it is just words for the sake of having words. Just saying things they think will make them popular. And i'm not just talking mainstream music, which i'm not a big fan of. This is true for all levels of music. And even the artists that speak out against others beliefs, that sounds so sad and hollow.

When your life is based on nothing then life becomes all about nothing. You can try to do things to make it seem fulfilling and maybe it does genuinely help for a while. But when you lay you head on the pillow each night, no matter how many people you help, if you believe there's nothing more even that can get empty.
God brings meaning. He brings purpose. That may not always be clear right away as to specifics, but when you know your goal is something deeper than trying to hide from the emptiness, either doing good or bad or just surviving, it shines a light on our need for God.

And as far as morality goes, i was never a hugely wild person. Even before i was saved, while others were at parties getting drunk i was at home watching tv or listening to music. While people were sleeping around i had only been with one person. Even now, if i were to walk away from God, i would probably continue attempting to live to many of the same standards as it fits me.
But who knows for sure. As a teen i had a lot of problems with anger and bitterness. It was my faith that helped me to not only realize it but to Want to take active steps against it. Without my faith i had no reason to care.

So yeah, maybe i could save i've learned some things that i could pull out of my faith, but for the most part if was specifically my faith that has made me desire to change and grow and become a better person. And for reasons other than my own ego. It's actually a good feeling to live for something other than yourself.
And before you assume i'm clueless to suffering, i'm not. The past either years alone, not counting all the other horrible years, have been very trying and difficult and painful, both physically and emotionally. I can't help but wonder where i'd have ended up if something bigger than myself wasn't in the picture. Suicide? Maybe. Dead by other means? Very possible.
While i struggle with all i deal with, i know i don't have to feel empty and hollow, no matter how much i suffer or screw up. I feel sad for you that you have chosen to live your life in the way you have. No a condescending or critical statement. Or even a pity statement. Just an honest, simple expression of how your post made me feel.
 
A

Aerg

Guest
#20
Thank you Ugly (an odd choice of name) for your very thoughtful response. What you wrote is beautiful and sincere and I appreciate it. I related to your testimony of how you were never immoral anyway. Neither am I, I have never cheated on anyone and never would - I have never stolen anything and I try to be a decent person to others. I think you're wrong though in saying that I've chosen to live a life in the way that I have. I can't believe things I don't so there's no choice and I'm not advocating for a life based on nothingness - it's just the conclusion I've come to upon an honest appraisal of the facts. If I could get past the problem of theodicy and vicarious redemption and the horror of the old testament and the absurdity of it all and accept the Christian worldview, perhaps it would engender a sort of sense of purpose - the only snag is, I don't. I can't make myself believe something because I like the purpose such a belief would impart. Nihilism is awful and so is cancer; I can't wish things away.