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As to God creating souls? Adam and Eve were created. All else were born through natural means. You are born into the natural world, as a natural man at enmity with God, and you are at enmity with God. Surprise surprise! You are in need of being born again of the Spirit of God, for the flesh counts for NOTHING. Your flesh will return to dust.
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Magenta,
The gospel is foolishness to anyone, there are four of them and they don't even agree on significant details. If it is the case that I can't accept spiritual things for whatever reason, that's just another failing of God for not allowing me to see it of for deliberately obfuscating it from me.
The gospel is foolishness to anyone, there are four of them and they don't even agree on significant details. If it is the case that I can't accept spiritual things for whatever reason, that's just another failing of God for not allowing me to see it of for deliberately obfuscating it from me.
Okay.. So if God didn't create the world, then who did? And IF we are evolved from chimps, then who created them? Every creation on earth has a creator. 
God did not create damned souls, He gave us free will to make our own choices. He won't force us to love him or obey him. We need to choose to do that ourselves. He doesn't want any of us to go to hell, He wants us ALL in heaven with Him. Even the angels have free will, and that's why lucifer and 1/3 of the angels rebelled against God. They were so sure they could be bigger than God. And they were wrong. I truly hope that God will show you how wrong you are in your beliefs concerning Him, His Son, and His creation..
God did not create damned souls, He gave us free will to make our own choices. He won't force us to love him or obey him. We need to choose to do that ourselves. He doesn't want any of us to go to hell, He wants us ALL in heaven with Him. Even the angels have free will, and that's why lucifer and 1/3 of the angels rebelled against God. They were so sure they could be bigger than God. And they were wrong. I truly hope that God will show you how wrong you are in your beliefs concerning Him, His Son, and His creation..
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Magenta,
Ok perhaps the word souls is incorrect where I used it. My point was that I had a problem with the omnipotence of God in that it would mean he created people he knew would go to hell. Why isn't everyone's name in the book of life, if there is a name missing then he has failed and his creation is a monstrosity. That was my reasoning. As for the being born again thing, I disagree.
Ok perhaps the word souls is incorrect where I used it. My point was that I had a problem with the omnipotence of God in that it would mean he created people he knew would go to hell. Why isn't everyone's name in the book of life, if there is a name missing then he has failed and his creation is a monstrosity. That was my reasoning. As for the being born again thing, I disagree.
In the meantime, meaning, between now and the time that your flesh returns to the ground (or the elements of the earth, however that is accomplished, makes no difference, it will happen) in the meantime, if you are not born again of the Holy Spirit of God, your name is blotted out of the Lamb's book of life, and following the resurrection and judgement of all, you will pass into the second death, for only those who have faith in the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross, where He poured out His righteous blood unto death due to His great love for us to save us from the consequence of sin, which is death, only those "covered by His blood" pass from death into life ever after.
And see, you have the same problem that caused the whole of creation to fall when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree, for their's was a sin of pride, and so too is yours, thinking you know better than millions and millions of people who have gone before you all throughout the passing of humanity's history upon the face of this earth, and don't get me wrong, for I do not condemn you for this, and especially not if your leaving a show of belief, or a shallow belief not deeply rooted in the truth of who you are as a person, sets you on a path of sincerely seeking truth. God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. May God reveal Himself and His love for you to your seeking heart.
If it is hidden to you it is because you are not ready to receive it. Jesus spoke in parables specifically to hide the truth from people. Shocking, I know! You need to understand that eye witness accounts ALWAYS vary in details because no two sets of eyes and ears are tuned to the same things at all times, and even if they were, their perspectives would be different, their understanding would be different, you would not see the exact same things due to some circumstance or another. Any good detective knows this. Be a good detective. Come to understand why there are differences and stop seeing them as contradictions when they are not.
Matthew:Christ is the Son of David rightful heir to the Messianic throne.Here we see Christ's royal genealogy,the visit by the magi from the East to announce His kingly birth,and the proclamation of His laws in the Sermon on the Mount.
Mark:Here we find Jesus as the Servant of God.Although Jesus came as God to earth,He completely submitted Himself to the will of the Father in heaven and took on the form of a servant.Anything extraneous to that theme is excluded,which is why the narrative contains no references to Jesus's birth or youth.
Luke:To Luke,Jesus is the Son of Man—fully human but unlike any other human being in His perfect submission to God's will. For this reason,Luke traces the genealogy back to Adam(the first human).
John:John presents Jesus as the Son of God—fully divine.Jesus is not only flesh and bones,but He is also the Creator of all things in the beginning(John 1).Jesus reveals His nature as "I am,"a title God gave as His own.
In many cases, claims concerning the "contradictions" between the gospels ignore the different purposes of the four writers. The focus helps us understand what each intended to emphasize in the character of Christ.One account could never capture the complete picture.
Mark:Here we find Jesus as the Servant of God.Although Jesus came as God to earth,He completely submitted Himself to the will of the Father in heaven and took on the form of a servant.Anything extraneous to that theme is excluded,which is why the narrative contains no references to Jesus's birth or youth.
Luke:To Luke,Jesus is the Son of Man—fully human but unlike any other human being in His perfect submission to God's will. For this reason,Luke traces the genealogy back to Adam(the first human).
John:John presents Jesus as the Son of God—fully divine.Jesus is not only flesh and bones,but He is also the Creator of all things in the beginning(John 1).Jesus reveals His nature as "I am,"a title God gave as His own.
In many cases, claims concerning the "contradictions" between the gospels ignore the different purposes of the four writers. The focus helps us understand what each intended to emphasize in the character of Christ.One account could never capture the complete picture.
Sorry for the little delay in responding, had to go watch Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy.
Well your original question was asking for meaning in life outside of God, destiny, etc. Not a bad question by the way, I enjoyed thinking about it. I thought it was thought-provoking so I just am giving my thoughts.
See there's the problem though again, if I suppose the answer to the question that outside of the God, destiny, higher powers, etc. that life is meaningless and futile, I can't really give an honest answer about the meaning of life without those. If it is meaningless and futile then there is no meaning. If there is no meaning then there is no conclusion to the question. So logically then something in the original assumption has to be incorrect.
As for the ironic question; can atheism truly exist? I mean think about it, if atheism is true, then there can't be a point of view that has a deity or deities, destiny, higher powers, or whatever you want to call such things. So then you can't really be an atheist. For example if you are like most atheists and simply believe in the theory of evolution or the theory of the big bang, then you have become a creationist, just a different type of creationist. You would believe there is a creation, you would believe the creation is ordered in a certain way. In this example you'd believe there was a creation in the form of what the big bang theory postulates. You would believe the order of the creation that things are fated to evolve or perish. You would believe in a higher power be it the cosmos, nature, theoretical physics, natural selection, whatever basically. Since then you would believe in such things you couldn't truly be an atheist.
Heh I find the term agnostic atheist kind of a funny conundrum in itself. You don't know if there is a higher power that you don't believe in? I don't see how atheism can be the default if it does not exist. Even you say in your first post you were at first a Christian.
As for Christianity and Judaism, I think Christianity is pretty reasonable, maybe not so much Judaism. But then those are pretty vast topics in themselves that I suppose would be better saved for a whole other topic.
Well I don't believe evolution is a fact based upon other facts I have seen. There are too many facts against it. One scintilla would simply be in the way the theory of evolution is both relatively new and also has to continually be revised. So I suppose then it's easy to see why it is one of the more popular debates. You could probably make a popular topic about it, or join in on one elsewhere on the forum though. I'm sure you would get many respondents.
Well your original question was asking for meaning in life outside of God, destiny, etc. Not a bad question by the way, I enjoyed thinking about it. I thought it was thought-provoking so I just am giving my thoughts.
See there's the problem though again, if I suppose the answer to the question that outside of the God, destiny, higher powers, etc. that life is meaningless and futile, I can't really give an honest answer about the meaning of life without those. If it is meaningless and futile then there is no meaning. If there is no meaning then there is no conclusion to the question. So logically then something in the original assumption has to be incorrect.
As for the ironic question; can atheism truly exist? I mean think about it, if atheism is true, then there can't be a point of view that has a deity or deities, destiny, higher powers, or whatever you want to call such things. So then you can't really be an atheist. For example if you are like most atheists and simply believe in the theory of evolution or the theory of the big bang, then you have become a creationist, just a different type of creationist. You would believe there is a creation, you would believe the creation is ordered in a certain way. In this example you'd believe there was a creation in the form of what the big bang theory postulates. You would believe the order of the creation that things are fated to evolve or perish. You would believe in a higher power be it the cosmos, nature, theoretical physics, natural selection, whatever basically. Since then you would believe in such things you couldn't truly be an atheist.
Heh I find the term agnostic atheist kind of a funny conundrum in itself. You don't know if there is a higher power that you don't believe in? I don't see how atheism can be the default if it does not exist. Even you say in your first post you were at first a Christian.
As for Christianity and Judaism, I think Christianity is pretty reasonable, maybe not so much Judaism. But then those are pretty vast topics in themselves that I suppose would be better saved for a whole other topic.
Well I don't believe evolution is a fact based upon other facts I have seen. There are too many facts against it. One scintilla would simply be in the way the theory of evolution is both relatively new and also has to continually be revised. So I suppose then it's easy to see why it is one of the more popular debates. You could probably make a popular topic about it, or join in on one elsewhere on the forum though. I'm sure you would get many respondents.
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*** greetings from Texas**** I feel the fact that we seek fulfillment and purpose in life points to a Creator*** anything man invents or makes has a purpose*** Ecclesiastes talks about life being vain and meaningless apart from God*** the only thing I see apart from God for purpose in life would be kids and grandkids*** I think we desire good towards them the same as God does towards His kids...
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Hello everyone,
I noticed I had several responses to some of the things I'd said and sorry about the delay but I will address them if that's Ok. So I'm not totally au fait with how the messages are arranged so I'll just go from the top as they appear on the page to me. There are quite a few so I’ll do this in bits.
Magenta: The gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. The natural man cannot accept the spiritual things
of God because they are spiritually discerned.
My response: Then I am perishing according to this but it is only an assertion based on nothing and I doubt that anything at all is 'spiritually' discerned; it's nebulous, ill-defined and certainly not verified by any metric; moreover, if it is true and I've missed it, why would God be so cruel and capricious to determine with such abject randomness who is 'spiritual' to receive the message and who, like me, is incredulous.
blue_ladybug: So if God didn't create the world, then who did? And IF we are evolved from chimps, then who created them? Every creation on earth has a creator.
Response to this bit: I wouldn't be so certain that it was created. There was a so-called steady-state model which predates the big bang model which does not require a creator and postulates an eternal universe. This model was superseded by the big bang model because there’s so much evidence for the ‘big bang’. Even this model doesn’t require a creator, there are numerous hypotheses about colliding branes and string theory and such – the honest answer is nobody knows, to assume a creator is to feign knowledge you don’t have (this is also true if you categorically state there was no creator of course).
Blue_ladybug: God did not create damned souls, He gave us free will to make our own choices. He won't force us to love him or obey him. We need to choose to do that ourselves. He doesn't want any of us to go to hell, He wants us ALL in heaven with Him.
Response to this bit: I think you’ve missed the point about free will. In fact, if I entertain the premise of God, he did create damned souls. There are people He allegedly created and had a divine plan for whose names are not written in the book of life; people who followed the wide path and fell short of the glory of God etc. The problem is, he knew all along. Free will doesn’t come into it. If I surrendered to God would I still have free will in heaven, could I punch him in the face and still stay there because evil is defeated and I wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for my being chosen etc. It makes no sense. You said he wants us ALL in heaven with him; how can he want what he knows will not happen?
I noticed I had several responses to some of the things I'd said and sorry about the delay but I will address them if that's Ok. So I'm not totally au fait with how the messages are arranged so I'll just go from the top as they appear on the page to me. There are quite a few so I’ll do this in bits.
Magenta: The gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. The natural man cannot accept the spiritual things
of God because they are spiritually discerned.
My response: Then I am perishing according to this but it is only an assertion based on nothing and I doubt that anything at all is 'spiritually' discerned; it's nebulous, ill-defined and certainly not verified by any metric; moreover, if it is true and I've missed it, why would God be so cruel and capricious to determine with such abject randomness who is 'spiritual' to receive the message and who, like me, is incredulous.
blue_ladybug: So if God didn't create the world, then who did? And IF we are evolved from chimps, then who created them? Every creation on earth has a creator.
Response to this bit: I wouldn't be so certain that it was created. There was a so-called steady-state model which predates the big bang model which does not require a creator and postulates an eternal universe. This model was superseded by the big bang model because there’s so much evidence for the ‘big bang’. Even this model doesn’t require a creator, there are numerous hypotheses about colliding branes and string theory and such – the honest answer is nobody knows, to assume a creator is to feign knowledge you don’t have (this is also true if you categorically state there was no creator of course).
Blue_ladybug: God did not create damned souls, He gave us free will to make our own choices. He won't force us to love him or obey him. We need to choose to do that ourselves. He doesn't want any of us to go to hell, He wants us ALL in heaven with Him.
Response to this bit: I think you’ve missed the point about free will. In fact, if I entertain the premise of God, he did create damned souls. There are people He allegedly created and had a divine plan for whose names are not written in the book of life; people who followed the wide path and fell short of the glory of God etc. The problem is, he knew all along. Free will doesn’t come into it. If I surrendered to God would I still have free will in heaven, could I punch him in the face and still stay there because evil is defeated and I wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for my being chosen etc. It makes no sense. You said he wants us ALL in heaven with him; how can he want what he knows will not happen?
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JesusRules1: In many cases, claims concerning the "contradictions" between the gospels ignore the different purposes of the four writers. The focus helps us understand what each intended to emphasize in the character of Christ. One account could never capture the complete picture.
My response: I appreciate what you’re saying but they’re not just different perspectives they disagree on factual details like the time of his crucifixion. How did Judas Iscariot die? Take your pick. There are different accounts for things littered throughout the text, the order of creation isn’t even consistent between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 and this farce continues throughout. How can this possibly be divinely inspired?
Chokmahiel: As for the ironic question; can atheism truly exist? I mean think about it, if atheism is true, then there can't be a point of view that has a deity or deities, destiny, higher powers, or whatever you want to call such things. So then you can't really be an atheist. For example if you are like most atheists and simply believe in the theory of evolution or the theory of the big bang, then you have become a creationist, just a different type of creationist. You would believe there is a creation, you would believe the creation is ordered in a certain way. In this example you'd believe there was a creation in the form of what the big bang theory postulates. You would believe the order of the creation that things are fated to evolve or perish. You would believe in a higher power be it the cosmos, nature, theoretical physics, natural selection, whatever basically. Since then you would believe in such things you couldn't truly be an atheist.
My response: Everything leading up to the line ‘So then you can’t really be an atheist’ is a bit strangely worded, i.e. ‘if atheism is true’ – atheism isn’t a truth claim, it’s a rejection of positive claims of the existence of a deity but I know what you mean; the actual line of ‘so then you can’t really be an atheist’ though is a complete non sequitur. I think you’re overloading the term atheist with some meaning that I and most atheists don’t hold. It’s basically this: I don’t believe in the holy books or that there is any evidence that a God exists because the evidence is non-existent. I don’t need faith or anything to express that, I feel the same about Jesus as I do about Spiderman. ‘In this example you'd believe there was a creation in the form of what the big bang theory postulates.’ Wrong! I don’t slavishly follow anything postulated by anyone or anything; the evidence suggests that the big bang cosmological model is soundly supported by corroborating evidence so I suppose it’s on to something.
‘Heh I find the term agnostic atheist kind of a funny conundrum in itself. You don't know if there is a higher power that you don't believe in?’ I’m not sure why you think it’s a conundrum, I’d perhaps word it differently: I don’t know for sure that there isn’t a higher power but no germaine evidence whatsoever has been forthcoming so to me it seems more likely that the whole enterprise is a human wishful thinking thing.
Kaylagrl: So it seems your mind is made up and nothing will change it.The question then becomes what are you doing on a Christian chat site? I dont see the purpose.
My response: Yes, my mind is fairly made up but I have no commitment to anything I believe and would change my mind in a heartbeat if I heard evidence which undermined my position. I was on a Christian site because I used to be a Christian and lost the joy I had from being a Christian when I came to realise it wasn’t true (to me). I asked the question is there anything in that joy and purpose which could exist outside of a belief in God. It was a genuine question. I said I wasn’t here to argue or cause trouble. I’ve responded to things when I’ve been asked. You’re right though, I think the certainty and joy is wrapped up in the belief and you can’t separate it.
I’d like to thank everyone who has responded to me and I sincerely wish you all the best.
Thank you.
JesusRules1: In many cases, claims concerning the "contradictions" between the gospels ignore the different purposes of the four writers. The focus helps us understand what each intended to emphasize in the character of Christ. One account could never capture the complete picture.
My response: I appreciate what you’re saying but they’re not just different perspectives they disagree on factual details like the time of his crucifixion. How did Judas Iscariot die? Take your pick. There are different accounts for things littered throughout the text, the order of creation isn’t even consistent between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 and this farce continues throughout. How can this possibly be divinely inspired?
Chokmahiel: As for the ironic question; can atheism truly exist? I mean think about it, if atheism is true, then there can't be a point of view that has a deity or deities, destiny, higher powers, or whatever you want to call such things. So then you can't really be an atheist. For example if you are like most atheists and simply believe in the theory of evolution or the theory of the big bang, then you have become a creationist, just a different type of creationist. You would believe there is a creation, you would believe the creation is ordered in a certain way. In this example you'd believe there was a creation in the form of what the big bang theory postulates. You would believe the order of the creation that things are fated to evolve or perish. You would believe in a higher power be it the cosmos, nature, theoretical physics, natural selection, whatever basically. Since then you would believe in such things you couldn't truly be an atheist.
My response: Everything leading up to the line ‘So then you can’t really be an atheist’ is a bit strangely worded, i.e. ‘if atheism is true’ – atheism isn’t a truth claim, it’s a rejection of positive claims of the existence of a deity but I know what you mean; the actual line of ‘so then you can’t really be an atheist’ though is a complete non sequitur. I think you’re overloading the term atheist with some meaning that I and most atheists don’t hold. It’s basically this: I don’t believe in the holy books or that there is any evidence that a God exists because the evidence is non-existent. I don’t need faith or anything to express that, I feel the same about Jesus as I do about Spiderman. ‘In this example you'd believe there was a creation in the form of what the big bang theory postulates.’ Wrong! I don’t slavishly follow anything postulated by anyone or anything; the evidence suggests that the big bang cosmological model is soundly supported by corroborating evidence so I suppose it’s on to something.
‘Heh I find the term agnostic atheist kind of a funny conundrum in itself. You don't know if there is a higher power that you don't believe in?’ I’m not sure why you think it’s a conundrum, I’d perhaps word it differently: I don’t know for sure that there isn’t a higher power but no germaine evidence whatsoever has been forthcoming so to me it seems more likely that the whole enterprise is a human wishful thinking thing.
Kaylagrl: So it seems your mind is made up and nothing will change it.The question then becomes what are you doing on a Christian chat site? I dont see the purpose.
My response: Yes, my mind is fairly made up but I have no commitment to anything I believe and would change my mind in a heartbeat if I heard evidence which undermined my position. I was on a Christian site because I used to be a Christian and lost the joy I had from being a Christian when I came to realise it wasn’t true (to me). I asked the question is there anything in that joy and purpose which could exist outside of a belief in God. It was a genuine question. I said I wasn’t here to argue or cause trouble. I’ve responded to things when I’ve been asked. You’re right though, I think the certainty and joy is wrapped up in the belief and you can’t separate it.
I’d like to thank everyone who has responded to me and I sincerely wish you all the best.
Thank you.
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In my opinion, nature by itself gives us enough evidence the evidence of higher power. Nothing in science can give explanation for a heart beat. Scientists has no answer for it. I agree with my christian friends, comment that everyone has belief. While we believe and have faith in God, you too are also exercising faith by believing in evolution.
We all know that there is logical explain as to why there are 24 hours in day, it takes 24 hours for earth to complete one rotation on it's axes. Similarly with the 365 days in a year, that is how long it takes for the earth to rotate around the sun. The fact that we have a seventh day week. Could science explain why is the week 7 days it could have been 10 day week why 7? Is there any logical explanation outside of the bible for the seventh day week principle?
We all know that there is logical explain as to why there are 24 hours in day, it takes 24 hours for earth to complete one rotation on it's axes. Similarly with the 365 days in a year, that is how long it takes for the earth to rotate around the sun. The fact that we have a seventh day week. Could science explain why is the week 7 days it could have been 10 day week why 7? Is there any logical explanation outside of the bible for the seventh day week principle?