The Rapture explained in two minutes

[GaryA]

You think that just because you changed your mind from pre-trib to post-trib that you are right in your conclusioin? The problem is that you and others are ignoring pertinent exegetical information.

You have that backwards. He changed his mind from pre-trib to post-trib because he came to the right conclusion...

The problem is that you and others ignore some of the most plain-and-simple blatantly-obvious straight-forward prophetic statements recorded in scripture -- creating some very imaginative "work-arounds" so that you do not have to face the reality of what scripture actually says...

There is no way that the church going through God's wrath and being gathered afterwards could even remotely be considered as "the blessed hope." Nor could believers comfort each other if we were to be gathered by the Lord after his wrath. You need to think about those things.

We keep telling you that we agree that the church is not going to go through God's wrath. You simply have an erroneous idea of what the [ End Times Scenario ] 'Wrath of God' entails...

The "blessed hope" is not about the comfort we shall obtain in this life -- it is about the comfort we shall obtain in the next life.

It is about where-and-how we shall be "when it is all over"...

Whenever these truths are presented to you and others, you just present the same failed apologetic's in support of your position The Lord is certainly not going to build his church and then send it through is wrath. If you believe that, then you just don't understand the severity and the magnitude what the wrath of God is going to entail.

We keep telling you that we agree that the church is not going to go through God's wrath. You simply have an erroneous idea of what the [ End Times Scenario ] 'Wrath of God' entails...

Let me ask you again:

Why do you continue to insist that the 'Wrath of God' includes things which are the common experience and history of Christianity?

 

[GaryA]

Right. But when you come up with stuff never before seen in the history of the Christian era...the warning lights should come on. It is extremely and highly unlikely that you are the only person on earth who correctly understands the Bible.

At least these PreTribbers have an army of theologians and millions of others who believe their way. And post-tribbers and preterists...the same thing.

Of course, large numbers prove nothing. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims worldwide and they're all wrong. { Exactly. The same is true for Catholics. Question: How many people on Earth has Satan managed to deceive? Answer: MOST of them... }

Granted...the fact you have some sort of 'absolutely unique' doctrinal system doesn't, by itself, conclusively prove you are wrong. But when you step back and look at the big, big picture...you're the only person on earth who correctly understand the Bible? God's Word isn't set up so that only one person understands it. { Correct. } God has always had a "community" of believers who have a basically correct perception of His Word...small though that community might be. { However, unfortunate as it is, many / most of them have been led down an erroneous path when / where it comes to the End Times Scenario. }

Gideon's "congregation" was whittled down from 32,000...to 300. That's about 1%. Granted, that's a small percentage...but there at least was SOME KIND of community. A community of "one"...isn't a community. { ( See below. ) }

And in 1 Kings 19:18...Elijah thought HE was the sole remaining 'faithful' believer...and God revealed there were "7000 faithful followers" left. 7000 out of...what? Maybe a million Israelites? Again, something under 1%. But still, there was a community.

You're claiming, in effect, God has a community of...GaryA, when it comes to Bible prophecy. I mean...your post here (#287 on this thread) has theories which have never before been seen in the history of mankind. That's has to turn on the warning lights, no?

You are trying to put words in my mouth.

What I said in that post ( #287 in this thread ) is considered "common knowledge" by those who properly understand what Daniel 9:24-27 is actually saying.

And also, you explain NOTHING in that post. Just a long list of bare assertions.

Does every post have to be a dissertation? Or, can you handle someone making a statement -- that may thereafter be explained?

Have you thought to ask for an explanation?

Will you actually seriously consider what is explained?

Or, as it presently seems, would you prefer to simply complain and throw darts?

There's no way to have a discussion with someone making bare assertions.

So -- you must "assume" that no discussion may be had after someone makes a "bare assertion"...?

 

[JaumeJ]

Why do so many labor over vanities when our Master, beforehand, has told us all?

Mar 13:1 As Jesus was leaving the Temple, one of his disciples told him, "Look, Teacher, what large stones and what beautiful buildings!"
Mar 13:2 "Do you see these large buildings?" Jesus responded. "Not one stone here will be left on another that will not be torn down."
Mar 13:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives facing the Temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew were asking him privately,
Mar 13:4 "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign when these things will be put into effect?"
Mar 13:5 Jesus began to say to them, "See to it that no one deceives you.
Mar 13:6 Many will come in my name and say, 'I AM,' and they will deceive many people.
Mar 13:7 But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, stop being alarmed. These things must take place, but the end hasn't come yet,
Mar 13:8 because nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes and famines in various places. These things are only the beginning of the birth pains."
Mar 13:9 "As for yourselves, be on your guard! People will hand you over to local councils, and you will be beaten in their synagogues. You will stand before governors and kings to testify to them because of me.
Mar 13:10 But first, the gospel must be proclaimed to all nations.
Mar 13:11 "When they take you away and hand you over for trial, don't worry ahead of time about what you will say. Instead, say whatever is given to you at that time, because it won't be you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
Mar 13:12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.
Mar 13:13 You will be hated continuously by everyone because of my name. But the person who endures to the end will be saved."
Mar 13:14 "So when you see the destructive desecration standing where it should not be (let the reader take note), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Mar 13:15 The one who is on his housetop must not come down and go into his house to take anything out of it,
Mar 13:16 and the one who is in the field must not turn back to get his coat.
Mar 13:17 "How terrible it will be for women who are pregnant or who are nursing babies in those days!
Mar 13:18 Pray that it may not be in winter,

 

[GaryA]

I would argue you are behaving unbiblically. The fellowship of believers have been given gifts of the Spirit, including those who have been given a "gift of teaching". We are to seek to receive benefit from those in the body who have such gifts... Our personal Bible study needs to be augmented by the teaching gifts of learned men.

What would you do if you discovered that I was such a 'learned' man - given a 'gift' of understanding concerning the End Times Scenario...???

( Not making any claims here -- just wanted to pose this question to you. )

Would you allow your "personal Bible study" to be 'augmented' by anything I said?

Or, would you fight-it-all-the-way-to-the-grave - because, [ some of ] the things I said did not agree with the things you have so convinced yourself are "the truth" - because, the "whole community" that you have been exposed to all-of-your-life are in agreement with those things?

What if -- just, what if -- that "whole community" is wrong?

Do you think that it is even possible that they can be wrong?

Do you think that it is even possible that you have been taught error?

Can the majority of Muslims be wrong? Were they taught error?

Can the majority of Catholics be wrong? Were they taught error?

Can the majority of Christians ( who believe in 'pre-trib' because they have been taught it for the past several generations ) be wrong?

You-bet-your-ever-lovin'-whatever-you-got-that-is-ever-lovin' they can!

Are you willing to swallow your pride and consider that you may have been taught error?

 

[Bladerunner]

looks like we see it differently.

I think that's one of the cool things about Bible prophecy. There can be so many interesting aspects.

so here, the reader must first decide who is a gentile, what is trampling, and are gentiles doing it.

ROMANS 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.

Why do you suppose prophecy is in the Bible??????? Never mind, I have a good idea of what you would say.

It is to Glorify GOD and HIS WORD.

And yes, those that have descended from Israel are still Jewish,,they are just Christians. They have Faith in Jesus not the LAWs of the Tanakh, Judaism, etc. They are part of the Church, His Bride to be.

 

[Bladerunner]

I don't think you are properly understanding what samuel23 was saying...

He did not say that every pre-tribber was a post-tribber first. He said that every post-tribber was a pre-tribber first.

I don't actually agree with the idea that every-last-person who is a post-tribber was a pre-tribber first - and, I really don't think samuel23 does either...

I am pretty sure that the point he was making was --- the "absolute-absolute-majority" of post-tribbers grew up being taught the pre-trib doctrine - and, later, came to the conclusion that it was not biblical - and, at that point in time, became a post-tribber.

He is [ essentially ] saying that the "absolute-absolute-majority" of post-tribbers were pre-tribbers before they became post-tribbers -- and, understand both 'pre-trib' and 'post-trib' teachings...

I do not think you realize just how much 'pre-trib' influence you have actually had in your life. Even the translation you choose to read will influence you -- because, the wording in some of them have been changed so that it "leans" towards 'pre-trib'.

Just because a person has never heard of Darby or Calvin does not mean that they cannot be influenced by the 'error' that those men taught.

You are not as 'isolated' as you think.

It appears we have several of the post-tribers here. A a religious belief that was debunked a long time ago. Just like Calvinism, etc.

 

[GaryA]

for you pos-ters.... who is going to populate the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ.

This is truly a difficult question to answer.

I have always [ generally ] believed that the 144,000 are the "seed" for the 1000 years - and, that they will [ somehow, at some point ] have wives.

I will not be 'dogmatic' about it - because, I am not "sure enough" about the 'details' of it.

I also believe that, if I had no answer at all, it STILL does not take anything away from the simple, solid, straight-forward truth in the scriptures concerning other aspects of the End Times Scenario.

 

[samuel23]

In order to even begin to understand Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 one has to recognize that Jesus described TWO historic events, one that happened around 70ad, and the other will happen at the end of this age. The description of the two events is somewhat mixed together, the abomination of desolation happened around 70ad, now there may be something similar to it at the end of the age(forced worship of statue of Beast?). The Jews being told to run for the mountains and get out of Jerusalem was definitely 70ad, but again there may be something somewhat similar to it at the end of the age. At any rate, one needs to keep in mind that there were things that had to happen in that generation and they did happen in that generation, while other things are for the end of the age. Part of what Jesus described has happened(an historic fact) and part of what Jesus taught is yet in the future.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You have that backwards. He changed his mind from pre-trib to post-trib because he came to the right conclusion...

The fact that he changed his mind tells me that his conclusion did not come from the word of God, confirmed through the Holy Spirit. For the Holy Spirit doesn't change his mind and teaches us the word of God of God correctly from the beginning. Anything else is from the teachings of men.

You and others can go on dishonoring the Lord by believing that, though believers have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God, that he is still going to put us through his wrath. But as for me and those who know and believe the truth of His promise, we will continue to look for the Lord's imminent return to gather his church prior to the 1st seal being opened, which initiates his wrath.

We recognize that the Lord experienced God's wrath on our behalf, satisfying it completely, so that we are no longer appointed to suffer God's wrath, whether the wrath that is coming upon the earth nor the wrath at the great white throne judgment. We are not appointed to suffer any of it.

We keep telling you that we agree that the church is not going to go through God's wrath. You simply have an erroneous idea of what the [ End Times Scenario ] 'Wrath of God' entails...

And that is one of your on-going errors. In an effort to discredit what I have been telling you regarding God's coming wrath, instead, you down-play it, you relocate it and reduce it to short period of time. I continue to make known to you that God's wrath will be in operation throughout the entire seven years carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and whatever plagues the two witnesses bring.

You replace God's wrath with a time of tribulation. The truth of the matter is that, from the on-set of the church, believers have been exposed to the trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would have and which will continue on right up to the time that the church is gathered. After that, the tribulation of God, his wrath, will be in operation from that time forward until the Lord returns to end the age seven years later.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is not the same event as Matthew 24:29-31

Matthew 24:29-31 is the same event as Revelation 19:11-21

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is the fulfillment of John 14:1-3

The "blessed hope" is not about the comfort we shall obtain in this life -- it is about the comfort we shall obtain in the next life.

It is both! It is the blessed hope of the Lord's coming to gather his church prior to his wrath being poured out and it is a blessed hope because we will be changed into those immortal and glorified bodies and will be gong back to the Father's house/heaven.

The wrath of God is coming upon this earth and the gathering of the church will take place prior to the beginning of God's wrath. That is the blessed hope and this is what we should be comforting each other about. As I said before, there would make no sense for those who have been reconciled to God and credited with righteousness, to still be put through God's wrath. You are not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's wrath that is coming.

Why do you continue to insist that the 'Wrath of God' includes things which are the common experience and history of Christianity?

Simple, everything from the 1st seal being opened is not common trial and tribulation. As I said, we have been experiencing common trials and tribulation from the on-set of the church. But after the church has been gathered off of the earth and that 1st seal has been opened, then that will be the end of the common trials and tribulations of the church and the beginning of God's time of prophesied wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Jesus is the One who is worthy to open the seals, which lead into the trumpets and bowl judgments and He is therefore the initiator and the One who carries out God's wrath.

Common trials and tribulation will continue up until the church is gathered. After that the wrath of God will be in operation. Instead of separating the first five seals from the rest of God's wrath, you should be recognizing that because Jesus is the One opening the seals, that they are all apart of God's wrath.

 

[GaryA]

The fact that he changed his mind tells me that his conclusion did not come from the word of God, confirmed through the Holy Spirit. For the Holy Spirit doesn't change his mind and teaches us the word of God of God correctly from the beginning. Anything else is from the teachings of men.

I have not even read past this paragraph in the post, yet...

( Your middle name must be 'strawman', since your posts are so full of 'strawman'-style statements... )

No part of the Godhead changed His mind. It was the teachings of men that taught him 'pre-trib'.

 

[GaryA]

Instead of separating the first five seals from the rest of God's wrath, you should be recognizing that because Jesus is the One opening the seals, that they are all apart of God's wrath.

They are all 'Judgment'; they are not all 'Wrath'. There is a difference...

 

[GaryA]

I continue to make known to you that God's wrath will be in operation throughout the entire seven years carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and whatever plagues the two witnesses bring.

The 'trumpet' events ARE what the two witnesses bring...

 

[GaryA]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is not the same event as Matthew 24:29-31

Yes it is.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the same event as Revelation 19:11-21

Yes, it is.

When exactly - in the narrative of Revelation 19:11-21 - do you suppose the 'event' of Matthew 24:31 takes place?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is the fulfillment of John 14:1-3

Yes, it is.


Everything in its proper order --- same 'event' --- there is only one Second Coming of Christ.

 

[GaryA]

In order to even begin to understand Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 one has to recognize that Jesus described TWO historic events, one that happened around 70ad, and the other will happen at the end of this age. The description of the two events is somewhat mixed together, the abomination of desolation happened around 70ad, now there may be something similar to it at the end of the age(forced worship of statue of Beast?). The Jews being told to run for the mountains and get out of Jerusalem was definitely 70ad, but again there may be something somewhat similar to it at the end of the age. At any rate, one needs to keep in mind that there were things that had to happen in that generation and they did happen in that generation, while other things are for the end of the age. Part of what Jesus described has happened(an historic fact) and part of what Jesus taught is yet in the future.

Jesus is, in fact, describing ~2000 years of human 'history' - with "emphasis" on two particular 'points' in that span of time.

The Olivet Discourse describes things that will occur:

~ After the time of the OD but before the AoD ( and the start of the GT ).

~ During the GT.

~ After the GT, but before the return of Christ.

~ At the return of Christ.

My point in saying this is that --- people need to understand that -- the things described in the Olivet Discourse transpire over a long period of time, not a short one...

 

[MattTooFor]

for you pos-ters.... who is going to populate the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ.

Why would it be any less of a "problem" for you non-believers (in the Olivet Discourse) to explain the Millennial Kingdom's earth population...than for those of us who stand with Peter, James and John in believing Jesus' words from the Olivet Discourse? (??)

Some potential explanations: First, there will be the "Righteous Remnant" who will become the earth-bound subjects of the Davidic kingdom.

And then all the rest of humanity that has survived God's "Day of the Lord" wrath...BUT have ALSO survived the post-wrath "Sheep and Goats" judgment described in Matthew 25...AND (I would assume) have somehow dodged the "mark of the beast". (Possibly, folks living in the most remote and primitive regions - jungles and deserts and such?)

They would be those who, in the manner of Rahab's faith, aided and comforted Christians during the Great Tribulation. Apparently (if I'm understanding Matthew 25 correctly), there will be those who (again, in the manner of Rahab the Harlot who aided God's people, the "spies") spontaneously and intuitively reach out to distressed, needy, hungry, thirsty fugitives from the Antichrist.

Particularly in the OT, we see a number of times where people like Rahab (or Abram, later Abraham) commit an act of faith and God "declares" them to be righteous on the spot. Apparently, from a careful reading of that Matthew 25 passage...there will be many similar "Rahab" scenarios during the Great Trib.

But...whatever explanation someone might choose to explain a Millennial Kingdom earth population...that explanation cannot create a contradiction to Jesus' plain words to Peter, James and John...that they should live (and thus should ALL future Christians live)...with an expectation of the Abomination of Desolation, followed by the Great Trib, followed only then by a "rapture".

 

[MattTooFor]

sorry Matt... there is no"ekklesia" in the LXX. Try again my friend.

I have no idea what you're trying to say. In fact, for the limited purposes of my particular argument, I have no need for the word "ekklesia". There are dozens of other words used in the Bible to refer to believers. Don't know what you're trying to say. The word "ekklesia" is in the Bible. (??)

And it has been (in my view) improperly translated into this made-up word "church".

 

[MattTooFor]

You are trying to put words in my mouth.

What I said in that post ( #287 in this thread ) is considered "common knowledge" by those who properly understand what Daniel 9:24-27 is actually saying.

Uh, OK. For me it was just mass confusion. Who are some 'noted teachers' who believe all this stuff? Maybe I didn't look it over carefully. Too much info too quickly, accompanied by a lot of "yelling" and emoting. You lost me at "you're all wrong!!!!".

Now that I'm glancing at some of this stuff..."Jesus was crucified in the middle of the 70th Week"?? First of all, it's a bare assertion. You're certainly losing my attention. You needed to stop right there and commence some very, very fancy explaining. Just my two cents.

Who believes that? Who considers this "common knowledge"??

The 70th Week ended 3.5 years after His resurrection??? Bro, there is one person on the planet who believes that, as far as I know. What key event is supposed to have happened, exactly 3.5 years after Jesus' resurrection? Come on, Gary. Give us a break.

 

[MattTooFor]

What would you do if you discovered that I was such a 'learned' man - given a 'gift' of understanding concerning the End Times Scenario...???

It's a moot question. You haven't come within a hundred miles of making anything close to making a simple, elegant, concise argument for any one of your many (to me) ultra-strange beliefs. Sorry.

Do you think that it is even possible that you have been taught error?

No. Thank goodness, I have absolutely no error in my beliefs. I am absolutely perfect. In similar fashion to the prayer of Luke 18:11, I thank God I'm not like my lesser brethren who stumble into error.

There was the one time where I had THOUGHT that I was in error...but I was wrong, as it turned out.




Good grief, Gary. What in the world?

 

[Dan_473]

Why do you suppose prophecy is in the Bible??????? Never mind, I have a good idea of what you would say.

It is to Glorify GOD and HIS WORD.

And yes, those that have descended from Israel are still Jewish,,they are just Christians. They have Faith in Jesus not the LAWs of the Tanakh, Judaism, etc. They are part of the Church, His Bride to be.

again, we see it differently.


here's another way to look at it

those that have descended from Israel through the male line or the female?

imo, Bible indicates male line, but most Jewish people today (including Israeli government?) use female line.

 

[Bladerunner]

This is truly a difficult question to answer.

I have always [ generally ] believed that the 144,000 are the "seed" for the 1000 years - and, that they will [ somehow, at some point ] have wives.

I will not be 'dogmatic' about it - because, I am not "sure enough" about the 'details' of it.

I also believe that, if I had no answer at all, it STILL does not take anything away from the simple, solid, straight-forward truth in the scriptures concerning other aspects of the End Times Scenario.

From what I have seen, you GaryA have a problem with reading any of the scriptures.. I and others have shown you the scriptures and have told you not their meaning because they are pretty straighforward. You still believe the lies you have been told. Like the People of the RCC, they believe the lies and because salvation is on the line, will defend them unto the death.

The rapture has nothing to do with salvation. There are several scriptures where God saves his people (Israel) or others (i.e. Noah, etc) from His wrath on this world or country. The rapture is just this. A way for Jesus to remove his Church ( those who believe in him -----without any strings attached) .

Now GaryA.... The Post trib. have that problem. Every body dies except the God's elect. So there is no one to populate the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ....

Since the remnant of Israel (roughly 1/3 of them that are alive at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week). You see, Revelation tells us that Jesus will rule the world thru Israel and Israelis. But his cannot happen.

What about the Bema seat..... and the Wedding Supper of Jesus and His elect..... That can not happen.

In Gen 12,3 God tells Abram '....those who curse you will I curse'..... Be very careful here my friend..Forever in a Tormenting Fire is a long time.

All the elect that are raptured after the GT are DEAD..... so that are only three who were ever raised up into heaven prior to death.. Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. So here is another prophecy that cannot happen. He raise up the dead and afterwards, those who are alive.

Lets, see, the 'Iimmanency of the Rapture' is also a lie. All the prophecies must happen before the post rapture happens?

Where is the anti-christ at and when did he come on the scene. The Bible tells us the restrainer has to be gone before the Antichrist can show up. The restrainer by all account is the Holy Spirit within the Church. Of course the restrainer will still be here on the earth helping the 144,000 and 2 witnessess.

What about the other 497 prophecies that are in the Book of Revelation. I guess like the others---throw all the prophecies out the door (they never did happen) and or they all happened prior to 70AD.

You and the others are not going to change our minds because we believe in Jesus Christ alone , by itself. If the rapture happens OK, and if it does not (regardless of the situation here on earth), we know we will meet him in death.

Rem Galatians tells us for those who willingly worship the other Gospel LOSE their Salvation.

I'll try not to me mean her, but I really do hope you lose a bunch of sleep of this last statement. If you don't you have blown it off as a lie and have continued your "other gospel" way. If that is the case, Good luck?