How Do We Reconcile Sinning Weekly With Excommunication?
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Many Christians will admit they sin all the time, daily or weekly. This is peculiar when we consider verses that speak of correcting fellow believers of their sin and even going to the extreme of excommunicating them from the fellowship. So, if we all are sinning all of the time, on a weekly basis, shouldn't we be getting excommunicated? haha 
I just find it something to be pondered when we look at scripture and how believers are dealt with who sin, and then we state of ourselves that we sin often. How do we reconcile the two? Our sin and the confronting of sin, either in encouragement or in excommunication?
I suppose this might be a dig at the concept that we sin daily, weekly, or monthly, but it does make an interesting point. Should we all be excommunicated? Handed over to satan? Why does scripture seem to speak of us being set free from sin's dominion and yet we claim daily sin, and if that be the case, doesn't scripture speak of addressing such sin in a number of ways?
I just find it something to be pondered when we look at scripture and how believers are dealt with who sin, and then we state of ourselves that we sin often. How do we reconcile the two? Our sin and the confronting of sin, either in encouragement or in excommunication?
I suppose this might be a dig at the concept that we sin daily, weekly, or monthly, but it does make an interesting point. Should we all be excommunicated? Handed over to satan? Why does scripture seem to speak of us being set free from sin's dominion and yet we claim daily sin, and if that be the case, doesn't scripture speak of addressing such sin in a number of ways?
The reason you have a contradiction in your thinking is because you believe that salvation is positional as opposed to a manifest state which is inclusive of heart purity.
When you have a religion which teaches "saved by position" in which one is still "manifestly wicked" then it is impossible to reconcile excommunication with sinning every day. To reconcile it would mean excommunicating the whole congregation.
Examine the whole passage...
1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
If the Church cannot purge sin within then how can they deal with sin without? Thus Paul emphatically told them to not keep company with fornicators, the covetous, idolators, railers, and drunkards.
Can you imagine one of the Ministers of Substitution doing that today? They would have to excommunicate their entire congregation due to it being full of sin.
No, they cannot do that. Thus they have to ignore the contradiction just like you have to do. You can ponder it at times like you have with this thread, but you cannot reconcile it.
The real Church are lively stones, built up as a spiritual house, a peculiar people, holy and royal priesthood, offering up spiritual sacrifices, who have been called out of darkness into the marvellous light. Fleshly lusts are to be abstained upon and our behaviour is to be honest whereby those without will see the good works and shall take note and glorify God in the day of their visitation, for we are to be the light to the world.
1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Such concepts don't exist in modern Babylonian Christianity for the modern system has completely rejected Jesus and His doctrine, even though they might use His name and profess a form godliness.
F
Right. The point of which is that we are not to encourage sin, by condoning sin. We are not to treat as acceptable, behavior that is unacceptable. Which is what was going on in the Corinthian church. In Corinthians 2 Paul explained that the reason for what He told them to do was to test them, to see if they would be obedient. It was as much about them condoning sin, as it was about the one they were encouraging in his sin by their condoning of it.
P
A study of spirit, soul and body will reconcile many of the scriptures that seem to contradict.
The spirit is sealed by Holy Spirit which renders it acceptable to the Father and eternally secure.
The soul is wherein our thoughts and emotions reside.
The body is flesh and will always be subject to temptation and desires thereof.
The spirit is sealed by Holy Spirit which renders it acceptable to the Father and eternally secure.
The soul is wherein our thoughts and emotions reside.
The body is flesh and will always be subject to temptation and desires thereof.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
All spirits go back to God who gave them no matter how the person acted on earth,or what they believed.
The flesh will be put off the saints.
The soul is the only thing that will remain of the saints in heaven,in which they receive a glorified body.
Some people think the spirit will be a part of the saints in heaven,but it will not,but all spirits go back to God who gave them.
All spirits go back to God who gave them no matter how the person acted on earth,or what they believed.
The flesh will be put off the saints.
The soul is the only thing that will remain of the saints in heaven,in which they receive a glorified body.
Some people think the spirit will be a part of the saints in heaven,but it will not,but all spirits go back to God who gave them.
Now to the gist of the thread... If I've understood Ben's OP correctly, he is pointing out a tension between the idea that we continue to sin, but we generally don't practice excommunication. I see something missing throughout the thread so far: repentance.
Jesus says in Luke 17:3-4, "'Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, "I repent," forgive him.'"
Three points from this: first, we do sin. Jesus doesn't whitewash this. There seems to be a false dichotomy, argued ad nauseum on this forum, between "self-deceived 'true believers' who don't sin at all ever anymore" and "profligate sinners who turn the grace of God into licentiousness" (as they might characterize each other). If only both sides would consider the whole counsel of God on the matter! God's grace gives us the power to resist sin increasingly and the inclination to avoid sin, while at the same time assuring us that when we do sin, Christ's suffering is sufficient to pay its penalty.
Second: we are to rebuke fellow believers who sin. That doesn't mean we need to be unkind, or unpleasant, or judgmental in manner. It does give us license to call out the sins of others though. The idea that we are not to judge each other at all (regarding sin) is not biblical. Does this mean that calling out the sins of others should be public? No. Does it mean it should be our constant practice? Again, no. Does it mean that we need to call out every little thing? Of course not... love covers over a multitude of sins. Repeated unacknowledged sin should be called out (disagreement over doctrine is not a sin issue). The rebuke should be framed in restorative encouragement to rely on the grace of God for forgiveness and sanctification. This is where the fellowship of believers is important. The sinner ideally will want to be restored to fellowship, because its value will be recognized.
Third: repentance. Repentance is a change of mind. Practically speaking, it is a recognition that our actions were sinful. It encompasses sorrow over sin and its consequences, a desire to change for the better, and the actual change for the better as empowered by the Holy Spirit. Put more simply, repentance produces changed behaviour. Some people deal with a massive amount of sin at the point of salvation, and live pretty decent lives thereafter. Others, like myself, are brought to the awareness of our sin over time, and deal with different issues as the Lord brings them to our attention. Is repentance in the latter case qualitatively different than in the former? No. Sin is sin, repentance is repentance. This side of death, the timing of it is not the issue.
One additional note about who has the "spiritual authority" to remove someone from fellowship. The answer is, the elders (plural). We each have the authority to remove ourselves from someone else's life, but to remove someone from a church body requires someone in authority in that body to do the removal on the body's behalf. One good way is for the elders to follow the procedure as laid out in Mathew 18:15-17. If the person is unrepentant, then the elders can tell that person that their presence in the body is unwelcome until they repent. If the 'church' in question meets in someone's home, then the host has at least partial authority, but should only exercise it with the cooperation of other leaders in the group. Likewise, restoration requires the agreement of the elders that the person has repented.
Sermon over.
Jesus says in Luke 17:3-4, "'Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, "I repent," forgive him.'"
Three points from this: first, we do sin. Jesus doesn't whitewash this. There seems to be a false dichotomy, argued ad nauseum on this forum, between "self-deceived 'true believers' who don't sin at all ever anymore" and "profligate sinners who turn the grace of God into licentiousness" (as they might characterize each other). If only both sides would consider the whole counsel of God on the matter! God's grace gives us the power to resist sin increasingly and the inclination to avoid sin, while at the same time assuring us that when we do sin, Christ's suffering is sufficient to pay its penalty.
Second: we are to rebuke fellow believers who sin. That doesn't mean we need to be unkind, or unpleasant, or judgmental in manner. It does give us license to call out the sins of others though. The idea that we are not to judge each other at all (regarding sin) is not biblical. Does this mean that calling out the sins of others should be public? No. Does it mean it should be our constant practice? Again, no. Does it mean that we need to call out every little thing? Of course not... love covers over a multitude of sins. Repeated unacknowledged sin should be called out (disagreement over doctrine is not a sin issue). The rebuke should be framed in restorative encouragement to rely on the grace of God for forgiveness and sanctification. This is where the fellowship of believers is important. The sinner ideally will want to be restored to fellowship, because its value will be recognized.
Third: repentance. Repentance is a change of mind. Practically speaking, it is a recognition that our actions were sinful. It encompasses sorrow over sin and its consequences, a desire to change for the better, and the actual change for the better as empowered by the Holy Spirit. Put more simply, repentance produces changed behaviour. Some people deal with a massive amount of sin at the point of salvation, and live pretty decent lives thereafter. Others, like myself, are brought to the awareness of our sin over time, and deal with different issues as the Lord brings them to our attention. Is repentance in the latter case qualitatively different than in the former? No. Sin is sin, repentance is repentance. This side of death, the timing of it is not the issue.
One additional note about who has the "spiritual authority" to remove someone from fellowship. The answer is, the elders (plural). We each have the authority to remove ourselves from someone else's life, but to remove someone from a church body requires someone in authority in that body to do the removal on the body's behalf. One good way is for the elders to follow the procedure as laid out in Mathew 18:15-17. If the person is unrepentant, then the elders can tell that person that their presence in the body is unwelcome until they repent. If the 'church' in question meets in someone's home, then the host has at least partial authority, but should only exercise it with the cooperation of other leaders in the group. Likewise, restoration requires the agreement of the elders that the person has repented.
Sermon over.
I've only ever seen this happen in a church..once. The worship leader had an adulterous affair with one of the team. He was publicly rebuked and publicly repented. But, he lost his position. It wasn't presented as a permanent loss except to this particular church. Maturity was to be sought. Also had to repent to his wife.
Was very tense but I appreciated it.
As far as which sins are covered by the cross? Jesus was crucifed before the worlds foundation was ever laid. Does this tell us anything? I think it does.
Was very tense but I appreciated it.
As far as which sins are covered by the cross? Jesus was crucifed before the worlds foundation was ever laid. Does this tell us anything? I think it does.
There is a massive difference between church discipline to protect the people and the Lord sending you to hell as can be seen by the letter Paul said to the 1 Corinthians.
He did hand over that one person to satan for the destruction of the flesh and it seems to be because the Corinthians were boasting in what he was doing. Perhaps they were boasting they could do whatever they want now because of grace? Paul just says that they were boasting in this deed done by this one guy.
He did say not to associate with people that had different behaviors - one of is slanderers - called revilers in some translations which in Greek means "slanderers" - an example is - those that slander others in the body of Christ.
Paul told them who they were in Christ...then corrected their behavior...he didn't say you were all unsaved now or that because they were sinning that they were not born of God like some people try to teach.
( without understanding the new creation in Christ - this "sinning" part will throw people off because they don't understand what is being done by giving in to the flesh and what the new man is Christ really is. )
Paul told them who they were in Christ...Here are 7 things that Paul confirmed as truth in the believers in Corinth before he went on to correct their behavior.
1) The Corinthians have been sanctified in Christ Jesus,
2) The Corinthians were now saints by calling
3) The Corinthians in everything were enriched in Him,
4)The Corinthians had the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in them,
5) The Corinthians had that God will also confirm them to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ
6)The Corinthians had that it was by Gods doing that we are in Christ ( Not our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness and holiness )
7) That because the Corinthians were in Christ - Christ Himself became to them wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption
1 Corinthians 1:1-9 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
Preach and teach the grace of Christ as it is the only think that teaches us how to live godly in this world. Titus 2:11-12. The word of His grace is the only thing that is able to build us up and that gives us the inheritance that is ours in Christ. Acts 20:32
He did hand over that one person to satan for the destruction of the flesh and it seems to be because the Corinthians were boasting in what he was doing. Perhaps they were boasting they could do whatever they want now because of grace? Paul just says that they were boasting in this deed done by this one guy.
He did say not to associate with people that had different behaviors - one of is slanderers - called revilers in some translations which in Greek means "slanderers" - an example is - those that slander others in the body of Christ.
Paul told them who they were in Christ...then corrected their behavior...he didn't say you were all unsaved now or that because they were sinning that they were not born of God like some people try to teach.
( without understanding the new creation in Christ - this "sinning" part will throw people off because they don't understand what is being done by giving in to the flesh and what the new man is Christ really is. )
Paul told them who they were in Christ...Here are 7 things that Paul confirmed as truth in the believers in Corinth before he went on to correct their behavior.
1) The Corinthians have been sanctified in Christ Jesus,
2) The Corinthians were now saints by calling
3) The Corinthians in everything were enriched in Him,
4)The Corinthians had the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in them,
5) The Corinthians had that God will also confirm them to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ
6)The Corinthians had that it was by Gods doing that we are in Christ ( Not our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness and holiness )
7) That because the Corinthians were in Christ - Christ Himself became to them wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption
1 Corinthians 1:1-9 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
Preach and teach the grace of Christ as it is the only think that teaches us how to live godly in this world. Titus 2:11-12. The word of His grace is the only thing that is able to build us up and that gives us the inheritance that is ours in Christ. Acts 20:32
P
Brother Ben, I am truly concerned about you. Are you alright?
Don't mean to bring a buzz kill or anything but it seems every time you post it's about sin.
Now I don't know what you do when your not posting but ...let me just say it does worry me a bit.
Now I do appreciate your input and the scripture proof you provide but...never mind it might be me.
Don't mean to bring a buzz kill or anything but it seems every time you post it's about sin.
Now I don't know what you do when your not posting but ...let me just say it does worry me a bit.
Now I do appreciate your input and the scripture proof you provide but...never mind it might be me.
D
Many Christians will admit they sin all the time, daily or weekly. This is peculiar when we consider verses that speak of correcting fellow believers of their sin and even going to the extreme of excommunicating them from the fellowship. So, if we all are sinning all of the time, on a weekly basis, shouldn't we be getting excommunicated? haha
I just find it something to be pondered when we look at scripture and how believers are dealt with who sin, and then we state of ourselves that we sin often. How do we reconcile the two? Our sin and the confronting of sin, either in encouragement or in excommunication?
I suppose this might be a dig at the concept that we sin daily, weekly, or monthly, but it does make an interesting point. Should we all be excommunicated? Handed over to satan? Why does scripture seem to speak of us being set free from sin's dominion and yet we claim daily sin, and if that be the case, doesn't scripture speak of addressing such sin in a number of ways?
I just find it something to be pondered when we look at scripture and how believers are dealt with who sin, and then we state of ourselves that we sin often. How do we reconcile the two? Our sin and the confronting of sin, either in encouragement or in excommunication?
I suppose this might be a dig at the concept that we sin daily, weekly, or monthly, but it does make an interesting point. Should we all be excommunicated? Handed over to satan? Why does scripture seem to speak of us being set free from sin's dominion and yet we claim daily sin, and if that be the case, doesn't scripture speak of addressing such sin in a number of ways?
Matthew 18:[FONT="]15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”[/FONT]
We must also remember these early churchs and the people within them was very close. I mean as we saw in acts many early churches took place at people's homes, Christians lived together, ate togethet, shared income together, and suffered together those who remained faithful.
These people was very close and actually made a habit to get to know each other and confess sins to each other.
Living together would of been hard to hide a lot of sins but what Paul was saying was look if someone among you is acting this way and paul had an idea of one man who was. Paul said to excommunicate them for their own good. This was a man sinning deliberately over and over even after being corrected and rebuked.
The reason why Paul suggests turning him over to the world, after all thats where his mind wanted to be, was so that he may experience the heartache and drama of the world to possibly draw him back to Christ.
In which it did in 2 Corinthians when paul mentioned about letting him come back.
This was a command given by Paul from his apostle authority to the Corinthians to deal with this problem.
The question is was this command directed to just them or for all future churches. And in which i have not studied this section to examine which.
But it seems to me if this was directed to all then it would of shown up more in other letters. But I also have not looked into this subject in the other letters.
These people was very close and actually made a habit to get to know each other and confess sins to each other.
Living together would of been hard to hide a lot of sins but what Paul was saying was look if someone among you is acting this way and paul had an idea of one man who was. Paul said to excommunicate them for their own good. This was a man sinning deliberately over and over even after being corrected and rebuked.
The reason why Paul suggests turning him over to the world, after all thats where his mind wanted to be, was so that he may experience the heartache and drama of the world to possibly draw him back to Christ.
In which it did in 2 Corinthians when paul mentioned about letting him come back.
This was a command given by Paul from his apostle authority to the Corinthians to deal with this problem.
The question is was this command directed to just them or for all future churches. And in which i have not studied this section to examine which.
But it seems to me if this was directed to all then it would of shown up more in other letters. But I also have not looked into this subject in the other letters.
Or we could have the Church preach more forgiveness in line with Jesus' teaching's toward a consecrated life, dead to the right to ourselves, and totally dependent on God, instead of self-control. If I am dependent of God's victory over sin, isn't it God who fights in our control and victory over sin; with ourselves also bearing the fruit of that in our soul (our will, and emotions, and thinking), concluding that based on our will aligned properly with God we will do as He asks? And succeed ! To do God's will is to love Him utterly wholly. For He loves us utterly wholly!
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Most Churches don't practice don't practice Church discipline today let alone excommunication, its no wonder that the Church today lacks spiritual power. We not only daily but probably hourly. The Bible says that we are to love the lord our God with all our heart, all our soul, all our mind and all our strength and that's all the time. Who does that? The answer is nobody. We are also to love our neighbor as our self, we don't do that well either. If you think you do, you have a set of different problems. 1 Corinthians 5:11 Gives a list of sins that qualify for excommunication. Its takes some spiritual wisdom and some common sence to apply this list. You have a member committing fornication, adultery for example. Someone needs to go admonish that person, if they repent, you have won your brother as Christ teaches. If they don't repent 2 or 3 need to talk with them, preferably church leaders, if they repent fine. So we have somebody committing felonies, that's an entire different matter, perhaps the Law needs to be called. We have somebody getting drunk and high all the time. We try to win them and so forth. Clearly not all sins need to be addressed and a different tone and manner needs to be used according to the seriousness of the sin. See 2 Tim. 4:2 Some people simply need encouragement while others may need a harsh rebuke. I hope this was helpful. There is much more to say on this.
S
Many Christians will admit they sin all the time, daily or weekly. This is peculiar when we consider verses that speak of correcting fellow believers of their sin and even going to the extreme of excommunicating them from the fellowship. So, if we all are sinning all of the time, on a weekly basis, shouldn't we be getting excommunicated? haha
I just find it something to be pondered when we look at scripture and how believers are dealt with who sin, and then we state of ourselves that we sin often. How do we reconcile the two? Our sin and the confronting of sin, either in encouragement or in excommunication?
I suppose this might be a dig at the concept that we sin daily, weekly, or monthly, but it does make an interesting point. Should we all be excommunicated? Handed over to satan? Why does scripture seem to speak of us being set free from sin's dominion and yet we claim daily sin, and if that be the case, doesn't scripture speak of addressing such sin in a number of ways?
I just find it something to be pondered when we look at scripture and how believers are dealt with who sin, and then we state of ourselves that we sin often. How do we reconcile the two? Our sin and the confronting of sin, either in encouragement or in excommunication?
I suppose this might be a dig at the concept that we sin daily, weekly, or monthly, but it does make an interesting point. Should we all be excommunicated? Handed over to satan? Why does scripture seem to speak of us being set free from sin's dominion and yet we claim daily sin, and if that be the case, doesn't scripture speak of addressing such sin in a number of ways?