Does original sin exist?

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#81
What is all the fuss about? Do you not understand being born of the flesh, the flesh
being at enmity to God, and your need to be born again of the Holy Spirit of God in
order to attain to life ever after? The flesh counts for nothing. What does that mean to you?
i'm getting the impression that they think the flesh isn't at enmity with God until sometime around age 10-16. or that just because a person sins in ignorance, it's not actually sin. that no one of elementary-school age or lower needs a savior.

God reveals that in our youth ((an indeterminate age)) the purposes of our hearts are evil. i suppose some people imagine this happens instantaneously on a persons 12[SUP]th[/SUP] birthday or something, and that all humans are every bit as sinless and perfect as Christ up until that point. congratulations on your bat mitzvah, now you are evil?? who knows where they believe that evil comes from and enters a person - "
liberal media" probably, lol ((??))
parents raise your children on FOX NEWS hahaha -- then they won't need Christ!

just . . . wow.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#82
Don't eat the fruit, you will die.... Ate the fruit... died... disobedience...

Does disobedience to G-d's commands still exist?

Yes!!!!

Do we die?....

We can either die in our sin, or have Y-shua stand in place of it... either way we do the original sin... disobedience...

That's why we need a Savior!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

eat fruit of eternal life!

His flesh is real food, and His blood is real drink


[video=youtube;X3enPMmvqQ4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3enPMmvqQ4[/video]
 
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Depleted

Guest
#83
in theory yes it makes perfect sense. but IMO its more complicated than that. dying at birth might prevent you from choosing sin but also prevents you from choosing righteousness over sin. we have to go through the tests of life with our free will and make the right choices and get back to that childlike state.

Mt 18 3
and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.




the theory is that the virgin birth was a loophole around the original sin. its a good argument. it may be correct but i dont agree. IMO the Most High creates us neutral and we have the free will to choose between right and wrong.
IMO the virgin birth was because the Father of Jesus was the Most High and not a man of this world.
Sooo, according to you there are THREE Ways -- through Christ, through choice, or through dying shortly after being born?

Your "theory" just made Jesus a liar when he said he was THE way.

I opt out of Jesus is a liar, and will go with your theory is false.
 

mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
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#84
You are a person I would love to know.... I love to bust out in a song based on something I said or someone else said that wes sooooooo GREAT!!!!! You have to be a geek like me to understand.....

Thank you.... biggest smile on my face ever... great song!!!!
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#85
he taught all should remain celibate, saying that marriage and procreation was evil in and of itself, calling marriage fornication and corruption.
Augustine taught the same thing and so do people like John McArthur. Check this out...

"God ordained it as a symbol, as a sign, a very important one. Not just for physical benefit but as a spiritual reminder. And the reminder is simply this, and I'll see if I can give you a full understanding of it. Nowhere or at no point is a man's depravity more manifest than in the procreative act. You say, "Why do you say that?" Well, we know man is a sinner by what he says, we know man is a sinner by what he does. We know man is a sinner by the attitude, the bearing that he carries. We can see on the outside sinful deeds. But how do we know man is a sinner at the base of his character? How do we know man is a sinner at the root of his existence? The answer, by what he creates. Whatever comes from the loins of man is wicked because man is wicked. So I say to you, nowhere then in the anatomy of a man or in the activity of a man is depravity more manifest than in the procreative act because it is at precisely that point which he demonstrates the depth of his sinfulness because he produces a sinner. And I would remind you that Jesus Christ had no human father because there was no human father who could produce a perfect person. The Spirit of God had to plant a perfect seed in Mary and bypass a human father. The male organ then is the point at which human depravity is most demonstrated. You see not the deeds of sin but the nature of sin passed on to the next generation." John MacArthur, The Distinct Qualities of the True Christian, Apr 30, 1989

Augustine wrote a whole book on the subject where he opened with...

"Our purpose, therefore, in this book, so far as the Lord vouchsafes us in His help, is to distinguish between the evil of carnal concupiscence from which man who is born therefrom contracts original sin, and the good of marriage." Augustine, On Marriage and Concupiscence, Book 1

The danger of dualism is that it redefines sin from being a moral issue to being a physical issue. Thus "repentance" is redefined to being a "confession of sinfulness" as opposed to it being a total change of mind resulting in the crucifying of the lusts of the flesh.

Original Sin negates the death of the old man in repentance and thus people approach God with rebellious hearts because they think the rebellion is an issue inherited from Adam and present from birth. This is why religion developed SIN CLOAK doctrines to deal with the ongoing manifest wickedness in salvation.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#86
the flesh being at enmity to God
The "carnal mind" is enmity with God, not the flesh.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

A mind fixated on associating the flesh itself as the root of sin causes you to misrepresent scripture. You probably didn't even know that the "carnal mind" is what the scriptures says, not "flesh." You just assumed it because your foundation framework is that of Original Sin.

Original Sin redefines everything and serves as an antidote to the truth.

Think about it.

Why would you claim that the "flesh is enmity with God" instead of the "carnal mind is enmity with God" ? The only reason is because you believe in Original Sin and thus associate the flesh itself with evil.

Remember Jesus came in the same flesh as we have and was tempted in all points as we are. Jesus overcame sin the flesh by the Spirit and so can we when we abide in that same Spirit, hence "the spiritual mind is life and peace."

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#87
Sooo, according to you there are THREE Ways -- through Christ, through choice, or through dying shortly after being born?

Your "theory" just made Jesus a liar when he said he was THE way.

I opt out of Jesus is a liar, and will go with your theory is false.
your confusing Augustine with Jesus.
Jesus said heaven belongs to children.

Matthew 19:14
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

Augustine says they go straight to hell if they die before baptism and having a proper understanding of who Jesus was.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#88
The danger of dualism is that it redefines sin from being a moral issue to being a physical issue.
but we're not talking about dualism. we're talking about whether Jesus died and rose for everyone, or only for those who are old enough to need Him to do this, or who were "weak" enough to need Him to do this, as though if we die young, or are perfect enough on our own, He is somehow superfluous.

what's the danger of believing that man is born perfect, holy and sinless, without need for redemption or grace?

what's the danger of believing that all mankind - regardless of age or understanding - stands in need of the blessed redeeming work that God wrought for us in the eternal Son?

 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#89
Matthew 19:14
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

i do not think this means "all children are automatically in the kingdom of heaven"
i think it means what He says - the kingdom is of those who are like such as children.

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Truly I say to you,
unless you are converted and become like children,
you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

(Matthew 18:3)

Augustine says they go straight to hell if they die before baptism and having a proper understanding of who Jesus was.

i don't really know much about these people ((but references to them prod me to learn more)) - but i really doubt Augustine said this, and if he did, i disagree with him.

this isn't about whether the Lord will save little children who don't in any full sense understand anything of these things. it is more about whether He needs to show mercy to them or whether by their very existence they deserve to share the glory of Christ - whether simply be being born human, they are justified before God and equal in righteousness to Jesus Christ, in whom there is no sin.

having sin and not being held accountable for sin are different things. one is guilt, and the other is mercy - and how can we even speak of mercy if there is no offense to be overlooked?



so i think that even if He brings all children into the kingdom, it does not mean all children are without sin. i have seen children. if He brings all children into His kingdom, it is not by "
default" because they are already of the kingdom - it is the same way, because there is only one Way; it is through mercy, which is The Way: Jesus Christ


 
Jan 21, 2017
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#90
Now im not no theologian so my opinion therefore doesnt count, but it appears to me that this whole deal about the original sin is made to make excuses for sinning willfully.
It takes away our free will to choose what we do, so we dont need to admit "yup, im doing wrong" but instead we can be like "well theres nothing i can do, original sin, duh"

And yes im aware of the passages about thru one man Adam came sin etc etc.

But after Adam sinned, God still gave israelites the choice, CHOOSE TODAY blessing or curse.
choose who you will serve, choose good! etc etc. 1 john 3:7 & luke 1:6
So to me that proves that we DO have the ability to do right and do good, and the fact that people are quoting bible verses to prove or disprove this is completely strange, i mean WOW, you can see atheists and unbeleivers do good things, yet claim somehow those who are REDEEMED by the blood are forever incurably sinful and stuck and cant change even if they want??? or am i misunderstanding this original sin doctrine completely.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#91
but we're not talking about dualism. we're talking about whether Jesus died and rose for everyone, or only for those who are old enough to need Him to do this, or who were "weak" enough to need Him to do this, as though if we die young, or are perfect enough on our own, He is somehow superfluous.

what's the danger of believing that man is born perfect, holy and sinless, without need for redemption or grace?

what's the danger of believing that all mankind - regardless of age or understanding - stands in need of the blessed redeeming work that God wrought for us in the eternal Son?
The fallacy in your thinking is "substitution" whereby you believe that Jesus died for something other than the reason He really died and was raised.

I am not contending that a baby is "born perfect and holy." The only reason you think that is because you are caught up in a false dichotomy that of Original Sin whereby you view the "flesh" as evil in and of itself. Thus you look at a baby whom is clearly not "born perfect and holy" and think, "see that proves original sin because the contrary is ridiculous." That is how I suspect your mind is subtly processing such things.

A baby is born NEUTRAL and IGNORANT. A baby is SINLESS therefore INNOCENT because sin only has power through knowledge. Look at what Paul wrote...

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

A baby is NOT born righteous. Vice and virtue are MORAL and pertain to the exercise of the will. Thus one CHOOSES either vice or virtue. A baby is IGNORANT and subject to bodily passions. Those passions are not evil. Augustine taught that those passions were evil because he defined "concupiscence" as an "inherited depravity" which "disabled the virtuous choice." Augustine was wrong, he was influenced via Gnostic philosophy and carried a remnant of it when he converted from the Manichean philosophy to Catholicism.

The natural passions and desires of the flesh are not evil. Evil is when one gives themselves over to those passions in willful disobedience to the influence of God upon their heart. That is "sin unto death" because it cuts one off from "yielding to God" whereby true life is found.

Thus a child has a CHOICE to make when their intellect develops to a state where they can then CHOOSE good or evil. The result of that choice is life and death. Due to the ignorance of the true consequences of sin and due to being born NEUTRAL then there is really no comprehension as to the danger and true depths of evil of sin. Thus it is no wonder that in general every individual will rebel against God at some stage.

This is why we are all responsible and held accountable for our choices by God.

The "redeeming work" of Jesus has to do with the Spirit of His life which we are to "enter into." Not a substitutional sacrifice effecting a legal swap whereby redemption is POSITIONAL. That is deception.

The dualism of Original Sin necessitates an ABSTRACT notion of salvation. It was within the framework of an ABSTRACT notion of salvation that substitution theology developed, first through Anselm in the 12th Century (Satisfaction), then through Aquinus (Penal Punishment), Luther (legal exchange) and finally Calvin and friends (Penal Substitution).
 
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Nov 26, 2011
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#92
Now im not no theologian so my opinion therefore doesnt count, but it appears to me that this whole deal about the original sin is made to make excuses for sinning willfully.
It takes away our free will to choose what we do, so we dont need to admit "yup, im doing wrong" but instead we can be like "well theres nothing i can do, original sin, duh"

And yes im aware of the passages about thru one man Adam came sin etc etc.

But after Adam sinned, God still gave israelites the choice, CHOOSE TODAY blessing or curse.
choose who you will serve, choose good! etc etc. 1 john 3:7 & luke 1:6
So to me that proves that we DO have the ability to do right and do good, and the fact that people are quoting bible verses to prove or disprove this is completely strange, i mean WOW, you can see atheists and unbeleivers do good things, yet claim somehow those who are REDEEMED by the blood are forever incurably sinful and stuck and cant change even if they want??? or am i misunderstanding this original sin doctrine completely.
Your observations are correct.

Original Sin serves to negate genuine repentance because its fundamental premise is "inability."

The ancient Gnostics associated the material world with evil and the spiritual world with good. Thus they blamed sin on the flesh. Their "salvation" was then through "knowledge" or "enlightenment" and was purely intellectual. This is what is taught in the current mystery religion (ie. occult philosophy as found in Masonry etc.).

This dualist notion of the flesh being evil infiltrated early Christianity gradually but became full blown with Augustine. Augustine blamed what he called "concupiscence" as the root of sin. Man was therefore "born a sinner" both "guilty" and "condemned" from birth.

Upon that foundation much false theology has been developed, theology which argues in favour of ongoing wickedness in salvation. It totally maligns Christianity in the eyes of the world because Christianity just becomes a SIN CLOAK religion of forgiven "wicked people" whilst the rest of the world is unforgiven "wicked people."
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#93
your confusing Augustine with Jesus.
Jesus said heaven belongs to children.

Matthew 19:14
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

Augustine says they go straight to hell if they die before baptism and having a proper understanding of who Jesus was.
I don't recall Augustine speaking in theories. Nope, that was you who claimed babies might make it to heaven (although not cool to kill them to make sure.)

I followed you up third street to its logical conclusion. To respond you darted off to fourth street.

I live in Philly. You can't even dart the same way when you dart onto the next street. So, suffice it to say I call you on how you dart here and there to avoid taking the very path YOU started, and then trying to make it seem like everyone else can't keep up with you very special GPS coordinates. (The complexity didn't come from the Bible. It came from your very special interpretation of the Bible that you can't coordinate well, so you ditch.) Silly game doesn't prove your theory either.

Your theory was busted (more than once by more than one person, too, I might add.)
 

sharkwhales

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2016
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#94
That One was the One Who overcame Adam's sin. But 'all sinned' is in the aorist, and it is specifically said that the reason that they sinned was not because of their own sins, but because of the imputation of Adam's sin.

It goes on to say, 'many died as a result of one man's trespass,' 'judgment following one trespass brought condemnation', 'one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men', 'by one man's disobedience many were made sinners', and all this is compared with the one man's act of righteousness.

We may not like the doctrine but we cannot honesty deny that Paul clearly stated that one man's sin resulted in condemnation for all, whether by imputation or impartation or both. in the same way as Christ's one act of righteousness availed for us all.
But this passage is drawing parallels to what Christ did.

If you apply 'all' in Christ the way you apply 'all' in Adam, then after Christ' death, everyone is going to heaven by default.

I assume you don't apply 'all' to Christ that way, as some would even say that is universalism. Most would say the 'all' in Christ does not mean everyone-bar-none, but that it means all who are predestined, all who are willing, all who trust God, etc.

In that case, the same 'all' in adam, would also not mean everyone-bar-none.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#95
does Romans 7:8 say without the commandment sin is "dead" or that sin "does not exist" ?

((are "
to live / to not live" and "to exist" equivalent? do you cease to exist when you die?))

is righteousness a matter of conscious & deliberate vice/virtue choices?
if we confine a man to a blank space from conception to death somehow so that he is prevented from ever making a conscious, deliberate choice, have we guaranteed that he is righteous before God because, having never made a conscious, deliberate choice between a vice or a virtue, he cannot possibly have sin?
would it work if we just kept him ignorant? why shouldn't we abolish knowledge of morality? is that even possible? or is it innate.

what does it mean, "
my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" ?
aren't they sinless in their ignorance?
why are they getting destroyed if they are sinless?

 
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Depleted

Guest
#96
If original sin exists, then what is it? Is not original sin the ability to discern between good and evil?
I really didn't think your question was that hard. How about I make it a simple answer?

They say the original hamburger came out of Louis Lunch's restaurant in New Haven. (New Haven? Considering your not American, do you even care where New Haven is?) The original Philly cheesesteak was created by Pat and Harry Olivieri.

Is the original hamburger still around? Is the original cheesesteak still around? No. That's where it was first created.

The original sin, in like kind, isn't still around. Adam and Eve are credited with creating them.

BUT is the effect still around? Yup. We've been sinning ever since!

Something happened because of Adam and Eve. Think about it. They were created and could do good. They did good all the time! Good like God defines it -- loving God fully and others as themselves. Imagine doing that without ever needing prompting or strength from God! They had that! They could truly choose to do good, and did.

But when they didn't, God changed everything as part of their punishment. There were no thorns, no poisonous plants, and no weeds before they sinned. Giving birth wouldn't have hurt! They weren't even going to have to die! Something seriously changed!

God gave his creation a negative makeover:
-- Poison ivy, datura, and several fruit seeds are able to kill us. Cactus and roses developed thorns.
-- Indescribable pain in giving birth.
-- Man dies.
-- Man is born with the sin nature that came onto the world at its original sin. We can no longer not sin, until God gives us new birth.

That's original sin still here, just like the hamburger and cheesesteak is still here.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#97


what does it mean, "
my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" ?
aren't they sinless in their ignorance?
why are they getting destroyed if they are sinless?
Stop partially referencing Scripture. The answer to your question is within the very verse you referenced if you had of paid it any real attention.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

A baby cannot reject knowledge for it does not have the intellectual capacity to reason yet. Babies live according to impulse.

Willful ignorance is no excuse.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#98

Rom 5:12
Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned. 

Death still reigns but in Christ there is no longer the sting of it.

Didn't Jesus die for all the world? Especially believers? Scripture says this....but free choice is what will determine where eternity will be spent.

I don't believe men have free will. Otherwise there would be no consequences of choice. It's the will of God that all men repent and turn to Him. He has provided the way to all.

So choose life.

As far as children...born into sin, yet without conscious choice. God is not a monster...He's our Father and loves us all.

 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#99
Is not sin lust? Wanting the forbidden?

Lust of the eyes, pride of life...we all are born with "desire".
 
Jun 1, 2016
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Stop partially referencing Scripture. The answer to your question is within the very verse you referenced if you had of paid it any real attention.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

A baby cannot reject knowledge for it does not have the intellectual capacity to reason yet. Babies live according to impulse.

Willful ignorance is no excuse.

sadly false doctrines cause " selective acceptance" of the word. whatever sounds good is accepted, whatever sounds like it requires full commitment to God is rejected by many. 100 excuses of why this or that doesnt apply. we want eternal Life, but only if we can continue Living after pleasure and our own impulse. so many times only the scriptures which sound effortless will be believed because of a mind and Heart led astray by apostate teachings that are always so popular.