Not By Works

slave · Apr 19, 2017

Yes - all souls that represent a human today have had our "breathed in by God" spirit dormant (not to be confused with the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of Christ), because of Adams inaugural moral choices that imprisoned us to the voice and influence of the anti-god's purposes, hence our fleshly desires being sought ought out by our soul and we become literally "soulish-led", not "Spirit-led". Thus, the spirit of Sin turns into our sinfulness....absolutely!

Man is flesh and flesh is unholy and always will be...hence flesh will always have a death judgement.. So there is no righteous individual (Self), independent from Christ. However, the good news is that Jesus became sin for us and paid the penalty of sin becoming flesh and being spotless from sins.... enabling us to be able to follow His life as He lived for His Father's purpose over His own (you say we are not to boast of anything else); well how can I not boast in Christ? He has made me innocent with God once more, but remember, not the Self me but the new me, the me hidden in Christ Jesus.... but that makes all things new and all old things gone! ...(you also say Jesus came to save sinners...); that's right, but what is the other half of the story - why did He come to save sinners? what did He save them from? Sin! thus, ask the second question..."What has He saved you for?" This thread speaks of half of Salvation. So, Yes, works have no part of Christ's victory in the victory over Sin (But it is our responsibility, now, to conquer sin(s); the particulars from Sin thru Jesus' victory merging us to Himself, giving us His victory thru faith to stand on on the victory He has given me in innocence made real. Him being the (Spirit; enlivening our spirit or 'living soul') that rules our (soul) that by (the choice) of our soul outcomes our (body.)!)

It is only a faithful person who truly believes that God sovereignly controls his circumstances. We take our circumstances for granted, saying God is in control, but not really believing it. We act as if the things that happen were completely controlled by people. But, to be faithful in every circumstance means that we have only one loyalty, or object of our faith - the Lord Jesus Christ.

For many of us here, God may cause our circumstances to suddenly fall apart, which may bring the realization of our unfaithfulness to Him for not recognizing that He had ordained the situation. We never saw what He was trying to accomplish, and that exact event will never be repeated in our life. This is where the test of our faithfulness comes. If we just learn to worship God even during the difficult circumstances, He will change them for the better very quickly if He so chooses.

The gift of grace is free - but Satan doesn't mind letting us think that.....what he will fight tooth and nail not to let us know, in truth, is: if a person cannot go to God, and become Christ-like in purity in their own life, based on Jesus' victory on a Cross - it is because he has something secret which he does not intend to give up....This is the "closet secret" Satan never wants His enemy to highlight, and comforts those involved in so thinking to pompous-piety by attacking those Saints who stay true to His Word..

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 20, 2017

dcontroversal said:

I have already explained this to you but you keep pushing what your not understanding

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 20, 2017

wsblind said:

I never put my beliefs in one or the other. My belief cames from reading the bible first before any doctrines.

And no Dc is so far along the lines of Calvinism and his beliefs literally can be googled and Calvinism pops up lol. What you say is Christian principles is basically him teaching the 2 without saying +2=4.

JIMBO43 · Apr 20, 2017

valiant said:

Your only guessing that and you where not there so you dont know what his intensions where and why he asked to be remembered...

You may be right but there may also have been something else that went on spiritualy that you havent mentioned...

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 20, 2017

slave said:

Yes - all souls that represent a human today have had our "breathed in by God" spirit dormant (not to be confused with the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of Christ), because of Adams inaugural moral choices that imprisoned us to the voice and influence of the anti-god's purposes, hence our fleshly desires being sought ought out by our soul and we become literally "soulish-led", not "Spirit-led". Thus, the spirit of Sin turns into our sinfulness....absolutely!

Man is flesh and flesh is unholy and always will be...hence flesh will always have a death judgement.. So there is no righteous individual (Self), independent from Christ. However, the good news is that Jesus became sin for us and paid the penalty of sin becoming flesh and being spotless from sins.... enabling us to be able to follow His life as He lived for His Father's purpose over His own (you say we are not to boast of anything else); well how can I not boast in Christ? He has made me innocent with God once more, but remember, not the Self me but the new me, the me hidden in Christ Jesus.... but that makes all things new and all old things gone! ...(you also say Jesus came to save sinners...); that's right, but what is the other half of the story - why did He come to save sinners? what did He save them from? Sin! thus, ask the second question..."What has He saved you for?" This thread speaks of half of Salvation. So, Yes, works have no part of Christ's victory in the victory over Sin (But it is our responsibility, now, to conquer sin(s); the particulars from Sin thru Jesus' victory merging us to Himself, giving us His victory thru faith to stand on on the victory He has given me in innocence made real. Him being the (Spirit; enlivening our spirit or 'living soul') that rules our (soul) that by (the choice) of our soul outcomes our (body.)!)

It is only a faithful person who truly believes that God sovereignly controls his circumstances. We take our circumstances for granted, saying God is in control, but not really believing it. We act as if the things that happen were completely controlled by people. But, to be faithful in every circumstance means that we have only one loyalty, or object of our faith - the Lord Jesus Christ.

For many of us here, God may cause our circumstances to suddenly fall apart, which may bring the realization of our unfaithfulness to Him for not recognizing that He had ordained the situation. We never saw what He was trying to accomplish, and that exact event will never be repeated in our life. This is where the test of our faithfulness comes. If we just learn to worship God even during the difficult circumstances, He will change them for the better very quickly if He so chooses.

The gift of grace is free - but Satan doesn't mind letting us think that.....what he will fight tooth and nail not to let us know, in truth, is: if a person cannot go to God, and become Christ-like in purity in their own life, based on Jesus' victory on a Cross - it is because he has something secret which he does not intend to give up....This is the "closet secret" Satan never wants His enemy to highlight, and comforts those involved in so thinking to pompous-piety by attacking those Saints who stay true to His Word..

very true. I think Satin is trying very hard to make people believe the Christian walk of faith is no longer a walk but more like alright child jump in the car and let me drive you there.

I think people are thinking that God isnt pleased when his children to choose him everyday in faith to be led by him. That to me probably brings more glory to God than forcing people.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 20, 2017

dcontroversal said:

The crazy part is your saying the Spiritual gifts we recieve after receiving the Spirit is the same faith you must have before recieving the Spirit.

And we know for a fact spiritual gifts are chosen to give to some and not others but your saying the Spiritual gift of faith is not the same as the others and everyone recieves that.

So obviously saving faith is different than the Spiritual gifts.

fredoheaven · Apr 20, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

Hi,

Thank you for the response and to make it sure am neither a Calvinist nor Arminians but simply a Bible Believer. Get your point and I am just asking you to prove since am still on thinking where you stand. I almost have to agree with your many posts. However, I found some of your statement questionable. Seems, prophesying ‘believers will fall away” is just not true.

Your foundational study as in post 3721 happens to be of something good yet needed proving as Paul says “Prove all things”. We want to prove statement as your base text in I timothy 4:1-2. Some few questions will arise either true or not though certainly I can’t judge someone’s salvation. But…

Is it really true that believers will fall away?
Who are those “some”? Are they really in reference to the real believers?
Is this a warning prophecy that some real believers will fall away? (Too scary)

Here is my view in this passage you brought out.

You know I will always found it true to that the simple ABC (Always By the Context) on interpreting God’s word. Verse 1 starts with the word “Now” so something has been explain prior to verse 1 which is actually a continuation of chapter 3. Ending the chapter serves as the spring board for Paul to say “Now”. So what’s in that verse?

KJV 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Holmman 1 Timothy 3:16 And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[fn] was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated in the Spirit,
seen by angels,
preached among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.

Speaking of the verse is Christ being preached to every nations, to the Jew first then to the Gentiles or to every nation. But as Paul says do all have faith? Do all receive the Gospel? Do all trust Christ for their salvation? Do all believe? No! Because all have not faith, some out rightly rejected the message of salvation and so it is very clear that “some” have really departed from the faith. So some are not going into “the Way, the Truth and the Life” hence from the beginning, they fall away from the truth. They erred from the faith. They are they who separate themselves from Christ. These “some” are not those believers who may back slide but never an apostate. These apostates, however, were mere professors. Yes, there will be a falling away, but this falling away is not for "possessing" believers rather they are the professing one. I don’t discount that some saved may fall prey from their pernicious ways but not at stake of their salvation. You cannot also judge the same way they lost salvation but as far as the Bible is concern truly saved believers, born again are keep by the power of God.

fredoheaven · Apr 20, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

Matthew 24:44-51New International Version (NIV)

44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Speaking to servants of Jesus but lost faith in the returning of his master and began to live in the flesh once more.

Ok. Thank you but nothing is said on losing salvation.

God Bless

fredoheaven · Apr 20, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

KJV
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Notice the v30, the Bible is plain, “men arise” not the disciples, not the elders but obviously, they were of their own descendants “own selves” that will arise enter in among the Ephesians Believers not sparing the flock. What the context means is nothing of lost salvation.

God bless

mailmandan · Apr 20, 2017

fredoheaven said:

I'm yet to find a verse in the Bible that specifically says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation."

slave · Apr 20, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Faith is a tremendously active principle that takes us to put Jesus Christ first by our volitional will; before and after our emergence with Christ; our New man, and "Living Soul." God has ordained Man to always have a choice....always! For love requires it. The life of faith says, "Lord You have said it, it appears to be irrational, but I am going to step out boldly, against my soulish common sense - trusting in Your Word." (ref. Matthew 6:33).

Turning intellectual faith into "our personal possession" doesn't come thru osmosis, it is always a fight, a churning of the soul, turning from common sense, to His Spiritual truths guiding our life and becoming our way thru the Holy Spirit's transformation.

Has God not brought you into particular circumstances to educate your faith as you travel onward and upward in Christ Jesus? Are you a 'special' saint that need not pick up your cross and follow Him daily, being renewed in His graces to serve His purposes? Does the Spirit of God own your soul (bought at a price) which in turn rules your body by your sacrificial living, which is your reasonable service, according to His Word? How real is your faith? Is it a showcase faith?.... Not how real is your God, or how real is your Jesus, but how real are you in Christ, hence real with God?

Now, let me say this: I only ask this for one reason, (not that you haven't been a test of my own faith, to be honest with you); but I desire God's Best for you...Period. I don't mean to slight you, or condemn you, but I do care enough to bring this once more to the table to look at in the "whole of Scripture". I am not better than you, I am in the same boat - always, so know that of me ok?

Scripture shows us that the very nature of faith is to make the object of our faith very, very, very real to US. Until we know Jesus, God is merely a "pie-in-the-sky" concept and we can't have faith in Him. But, once we hear Jesus say, "He who has seen Me, has seen The Father" (John 14:9), we immediately have something that is real, and our faith is limitless.

God's Word is clear...as spirit discerns Spirit....Faith is the entire person( Spirit, soul (our volitional will), and body), which has been realigned by Christ Jesus to be in the right relationship with God affording innocence to take it's place and serve it's New role in your New Man, thru the power of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. "Salvation"...is His measure of faithfulness He offers us, and He will continue to be faithful, even, regardless of our receiving Him, but our faith is our measurement of our will to let His Spirit rule in our life in it's totality, becoming Christ-like!

mailmandan · Apr 20, 2017

fredoheaven said:

"Draw away disciples after themselves" is the goal of these grievous wolves, which is a good description of these men in Acts 20. You don't have to look very hard to find such men, even on Christian forums. I recently left one particular Christian forum because it had just about been completely hijacked by such men. That forum was nothing but a war zone!

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 20, 2017

mailmandan said:

So yall are looking for a verse that's speaking about one certain person? But ignore the scriptures warning believers to stay on guard and remain faithful?

Has some of the church really been this deceived?

eternally-gratefull · Apr 20, 2017

wsblind said:

Most people are neither of those.. But if you say something, you will be judged as being that,, Once that happens. All means of discussion are destroyed, because the root of discussion (the beliefs of each person in the discussion) is already destroyed by a false belief of what the other actually believes.. You will never come to an understanding, when they already distort off the wrong foot.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 20, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

I was just making the point we should not start a discussion judging people as one or the other.. That happens to much in here, and why their is so much fighting..

People think they know what others believe, when they have not a utter clue of what they think, based on the fact they are trying to force them into a belief system (say like Calvin or Armenian) they do not fall under. Its like trying to force a rectangle block into a square hole. They do not fit..

eternally-gratefull · Apr 20, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

If you walk in front of a car, what may happen?

SHould you not want a person to not walk in front of a car. They may be hurt, or the people in the car while swerving to miss you may get hurt themselves or seriously hurt or kill someone else.

Thats why the warning are there.. To prevent us from being hurt, and taking us out.. Not because we may lose salvation.

PeterJens · Apr 20, 2017

I would love to see some members actually understand what others are saying,
take them at their word and see things from their perspective.

I doubt some are actually capable of doing this, all they can do is be biased and
antagonistic.

It has been said until you walk in another persons shoes you cannot judge them.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 20, 2017

fredoheaven said:

I'm not sure what your stance is but either these verses are directed to believers or they are not. It's simple if they are then its obviously a logical and wise assumption to say falling away and apostasy is possible in a believer.

Especially since Faith is a faith to faith action we trust in God unto the day of judgment. We are to hold onto faith.

[h=1]2 Peter 3:14-18Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Conclusion[/h][FONT=&quot]14 Therefore, dear friends, while you wait for these things, make every effort to be found at peace with Him without spot or blemish. 15 Also, regard the patience of our Lord as an opportunity for salvation, just as our dear brother Paul has written to you according to the wisdom given to him. 16 He speaks about these things in all his letters in which there are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.

This same very thing is happening now in the church as to the same reason why Peter was having to write and warn believers. Warning us that people are here trying to twist Pauls teachings to promote a walkless faith and the OSAS doctrine.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 Therefore, dear friends, since you know this in advance, be on your guard, so that you are not led away by the error of lawless people and fall from your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.[a] Amen.

Keep in mind Peter is speaking to believers. Be on guard why if we are eternally secured? Led away from what if we are secured? Fall from your own stability? Why do we need to grow if we have nothing to grow into? Maybe the growth helps us be on guard from being led away.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Hebrews 10Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]The Perfect Sacrifice[/h][FONT=&quot]10 Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come, and not the actual form of those realities, it can never perfect the worshipers by the same sacrifices they continually offer year after year. 2 Otherwise, wouldn’t they have stopped being offered, since the worshipers, once purified, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in the sacrifices, there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]You did not want sacrifice and offering,
but You prepared a body for Me.
6 You did not delight
in whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.
7 Then I said, “See—
it is written about Me
in the volume of the scroll—
I have come to do Your will, God!”[a][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 After He says above, You did not want or delight in sacrifices and offerings, whole burnt offerings and sin offerings (which are offered according to the law), 9 He then says, See, I have come to do Your will.[b]He takes away the first to establish the second. 10 By this will of God, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Every priest stands day after day ministering and offering the same sacrifices time after time, which can never take away sins. 12 But this man, after offering one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. 13 He is now waiting until His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. For after He says:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]16 This is the covenant I will make with them
after those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws on their hearts
and write them on their minds,[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 He adds:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]I will never again remember
their sins and their lawless acts.[c][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

This is very beautiful and the hope we have in Christ. This is the only sacrifice that matters and we must remain in the faith of the only sacrifice for sins. That is the only way our sins are forgotten by the mediation of Christ. Walk away from Christ, lose faith then what sacrifice is available?

[/FONT]
[h=1]John 6:66-68Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]66 From that moment many of His disciples turned back and no longer accompanied Him. 67 Therefore Jesus said to the Twelve, “You don’t want to go away too, do you?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]68 Simon Peter answered, “Lord, who will we go to? You have the words of eternal life.[/FONT]
[h=3]Hebrews 10 continued

Exhortations to Godliness[/h][FONT=&quot]19 Therefore, brothers, (very clear the author is speaking to believers if you haven't figured that out) since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way He has opened for us through the curtain (that is, His flesh), 21 and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. 23 Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works, 25 not staying away from our worship meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

This is our Christian walk, our faith in action is to draw near with a true heart, remain in faith to our original confession without wavering, and to keep encouraging other brothers/sisters to stay connected, stay in love, and to keep building up the church. Because the day is drawing near for everyone to be held for what they did with the time allotted by God to us here on earth.

[/FONT]
[h=3]Warning against Deliberate Sin[/h][FONT=&quot]26 For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. 28 If anyone disregards Moses’ law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane[d] the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay,[e][f] and again, The Lord will judge His people.[g] 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 Remember the earlier days when, after you had been enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to taunts and afflictions, and at other times you were companions of those who were treated that way. 34 For you sympathized with the prisoners[h] and accepted with joy the confiscation of your possessions, knowing that you yourselves have a better and enduring possession.[i] 35 So don’t throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance, so that after you have done God’s will, you may receive what was promised.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]37 For yet in a very little while,
the Coming One will come and not delay.
38 But My righteous one[j] will live by faith;
and if he draws back,
I have no pleasure in him.[k][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]39 But we are not those who draw back and are destroyed, but those who have faith and obtain life.

[/FONT]
[h=1]2 Peter 2:21-22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb: A dog returns to its own vomit,[a] and, “a sow, after washing itself, wallows in the mud.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Its really not that scary. The author is just saying remain in Faith. Well, I suppose for people that are living lukewarm this verse won't sit too well on the stomach.

Obviously, this verse is similar to......

[/FONT]
[h=1][/h]

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 20, 2017

[h=1]Hebrews 6Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Warning against Regression[/h][FONT=&quot]6 Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity,(this is the mature side of faith that some do not make it to) not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God, 2 teaching about ritual washings,[a] laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And we will do this if God permits. (Its still obvious the author is talking to believers.)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit,( this is just one example that having the Spirit and seal coincides with my explanation of Gods earnest agreement)

5 tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, because,[b] to their own harm,( to their own harm, their own choice to deny Christ) they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt. 7 For ground that has drunk the rain that has often fallen on it and that produces vegetation useful to those it is cultivated for receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and about to be cursed, and will be burned at the end.

We still do not know if the author is saying impossible on a psychological level or spiritual. If its psychological then yeah, of course, its impossible while the believer who fell away remains in their heart set to deny Christ. Then, of course, it impossible for us to bring them back. Which would make sense because what wouldn't make sense is to say from a spiritual standpoint that it's impossible with God. Which we know nothing is impossible with God. But on the other hand even from a spiritual standpoint if a man is set to deny Christ out of free will in his psychological state then God honors his choice. So in a way, even man can make it impossible for God due to Gods honoring of free will.

I think I just made myself even more aware of what this verse is saying lol. But anyways onward we go.... [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Even though we are speaking this way, dear friends, in your case we are confident ( notice no one ever says we are certain) of the better things connected with salvation. 10 For God is not unjust; He will not forget your work and the love[c] you showed for His name when you served the saints—and you continue to serve them.11 Now we want each of you to demonstrate the same diligence for the final realization of your hope, ( diligence careful and persistent work or effort to remain in faith unto the end.) 12 so that you won’t become lazy but will be imitators of those who inherit the promises through faith and perseverance.

Imitators meaning we have not yet reached slavation, but we must act as those who inherit the promises, this is remaining in faith and having hope for what is to come. Every scripture promotes this idea that remaining in faith is obvious that we will gain salvation. This is why we can say yes I am currently saved because we are in faith and believe in the sacrifice of Jesus and his mediation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 20, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

If you walk in front of a car, what may happen?

SHould you not want a person to not walk in front of a car. They may be hurt, or the people in the car while swerving to miss you may get hurt themselves or seriously hurt or kill someone else.

Thats why the warning are there.. To prevent us from being hurt, and taking us out.. Not because we may lose salvation.

Okay whatever you say lol

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