Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[1ofthem]

I'll give my opinion here too, and risk the wrath of both of you who I love and care about.
You said it, in my opinion,( in the complete sentence and tone) with some resentment at how she said you were lying. Your response carried some sass. I mean, hey, she called you a liar. And I think you are a sweetheart. And I don't want a cup of coffee.

Love one another and bear with one another. Make peace if it is at all possible. Admit your faults to one another. And PLEASE, tell me when you think I have let my own arrogance rise up, even if you only see it slightly, because then I will know you really love and care about me too and don't want me harmed by even the slightest of my arrogance.

Yeah thanks, but I hold no animosity for anyone here. I can have a disagreement with someone without name calling and say they are lying because I don't agree with them.

But to call some one a liar and then get offended and cry because they call you sweetheart is pretty lame if you ask me.

But I'm not going to keep interrupting this thread and engaging in this baby bull crap.

So peace y'all I'm out.

 

[Depleted]

Depending on the tone makes sense. She was probably a bit taken aback at being called a liar and so used the term. It appeared to me she was slightly annoyed. I don't like to be called a liar either when I'm discussing how I understand scripture. It is never my intention to just purposely lie. I don't think it's the intention of a single one of us in here.

To me, the word liar connotes intentionality to deceive. That's really not us. We don't come in here to talk with one another with bad motive like that. Thank goodness God looks on our hearts motive!

Thank you grandpa - you're such a sweetheart!

We agree that is intent. We disagree on no one would do that on here.

And, yes, calling Grandpa a sweetheart there was fine, because it was said with endearment.

 

[notuptome]

"Not all will receive." Okay, I get that.

This is what God says on who will receive:
John 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

Now, how do those who love the darkness receive the light?

Trick question. (The answer is in the next verse, if you want to make this an open-book test. lol)

As for foreknowledge.
a. God doesn't know the future. He's God. He created time and space, so he's not linear in needing a past, present, or future. So, no matter what you think foreknowledge means, you can't say that God can see into the future as that definition. He's omniscient. He knows everything and has always known it. To him it is all one huge IS. No past nor future. Even that second that just went by is a second God knows presently always. (This boggles my mind. )

b. No one is arguing foreknowledge. We're arguing predestination.

And, yes, eventually, I do thank God for pain. I have now gotten old enough to see how God has used pain for my good, so yes -- Rom. 8:28, Thank you, Lord even for that. He did predestine both hubby and me (not in that order) to become disabled. It is working out for our good and his glory, so yes! Thank you, Lord!

I mean, I'd rather not be in pain, but I see why he keeps me in it.

Actually foreknowledge is being confused with predestination. Predestination as presented in the bible occurs after salvation not as a mechanism to salvation. When Adam fell in the garden he received the knowledge of good an evil. This makes it possible and necessary for man to choose between salvation in Christ or remaining lost in the darkness of sin.

Physical pain remains a consequence of sin on the world. No one is immune to pain and physical suffering. Although I often wonder how the unsaved cope with sorrow and pain.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Depleted]

I know!..It's exciting! I told you this before but I asked the Lord if we could live by each other in heaven....

I picture heaven kind of like a mosh pit -- everyone struggling to get near God. lol

(It will be interesting to see how God really does that, since he wants us all near him.)

 

[Depleted]

Oh great...Bruce will eat you out of house and home in heaven every refeed Friday...hahaha!!
He'll knock on your door, come in and raid your fridge, plop his feet up on your coffee table and eat all your ice cream.

Whoa! There is no lactose intolerance in heaven. I never considered eating ice cream again.

 

[Grace777x70]

That did it!

The sky is blue!

I still don't get what Grace means when he tells you that, but this is what I mean. Grace believes the sky is blue. Because he believes the sky is blue, you will dogtail him to the ends of the earth and back again ever determined that he has to agree with "The sky is brown!" It just doesn't matter to you that you too believe the sky is blue, it matters to you that no matter what Grace says, he HAS to be wrong, even at those times when he's not wrong. (Yes, Grace, there are times, you are right. lol)

So, from now on whenever you dogtail him simply to yell at him to prove your righteousness, I'm going to respond with one thing I know you BOTH agree with.

THE SKY IS BLUE!

You ain't working, sooooo

THE SKY IS BLUE!

LOL....everyone knows the sky is really purple...

Honestly I don't know how you "heretics" that see things differently then some others don't get burned at the stake anymore....

 

[Depleted]

First of all, I just want to say that we can't know for 100% who is absolutely correct here because we are not God. I don't want you to think I am being prideful or condescending....

But, some have 'chosen' God and some have not.

What is in the ones who have chosen God that make them better equipped to respond than the ones who did not? Whatever it is, don't they then have room to boast?

I have more faith, I have more intelligence, I have more goodness, than you... etc???

Maybe the darkness they hide in smelled like a batch of tar on a hot summer day.

(Sorry, just reconsidering ice cream in heaven. lol)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I was not saying you were wrong, Just saying I never saw it like that. It may happen that way with quite a few. But the fact it is not all. Shows that it is more than just a light going on.

Paul suddenly saw a great light too, so bright that it blinded him! He didn't debate in his mind for a long time whether to follow that light. He was just bang! 800,000 watts baby!

It's hard to try not to insist that someones experience is rare just because it's not how it happened to us. I once met a man who received his Spirit Baptism the very second he came up out of the water a man was baptizing him in. So after that, he insisted water baptism was necessary because that's how it literally happened that he received the Spirit! After speaking with me for a long time he said he had to admit that he thought he might have been wrong because he was sure he saw consistent fruits of meekness, etc. in me. (I told him to wait around a bit more and he would probably see me have a bad and cross day in which he would swear the opposite was what he saw. )

 

[Stephen63]

Well...to be truthful here. It doesn't say that "all men" will be drawn to Jesus in John 12:32. In context it says that "all will be drawn to Him". The "men" was added by the translators.

There is no Greek word for "men" in the text.

The "all" is referring to judgment - all judgment will be drawn to Christ when He is lifted up - signifying the type of death He should have - taking sin upon Himself - but I believe all judgment included "all the sin that men and women everywhere had on them". God didn't pick and choose who's judgment He took upon Himself on the cross. He took it for all!

New International Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

New Living Translation
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

English Standard Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Berean Study Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Berean Literal Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

King James Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to Myself."

International Standard Version
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself."

Matthew 4:23 Adj-AFS
GRK: καὶ θεραπεύων πᾶσαν νόσον καὶ
NAS: and healing every kind
KJV: and healing all manner of sickness and
INT: and healing every disease and
Matthew 4:23 Adj-AFS
GRK: νόσον καὶ πᾶσαν μαλακίαν ἐν
NAS: every kind of disease
KJV: and all manner of disease
INT: disease and every sickness among
Matthew 4:24 Adj-AMP
GRK: προσήνεγκαν αὐτῷ πάντας τοὺς κακῶς
NAS: and they brought to Him all who were ill,
KJV: they brought unto him all sick people
INT: they brought to him all sick
Matthew 5:11 Adj-ANS
GRK: καὶ εἴπωσιν πᾶν πονηρὸν καθ'
NAS: say all kinds of evil
KJV: shall say all manner of evil
INT: and shall say all kinds of evil against
Matthew 5:15 Adj-DMP
GRK: καὶ λάμπει πᾶσιν τοῖς ἐν
NAS: and it gives light to all who are in the house.
KJV: it giveth light unto all that are in
INT: and it shines for all who [are] in
Matthew 5:18 Adj-NNP
GRK: ἕως ἂν πάντα γένηται
NAS: until all is accomplished.
KJV: the law, till all be fulfilled.
INT: until anyhow all come to pass
Matthew 5:22 Adj-NMS
GRK: ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ ὀργιζόμενος
NAS: But I say to you that everyone who is angry
KJV: That whosoever is angry
INT: to you that every one who is angry with
Matthew 5:28 Adj-NMS
GRK: ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων
NAS: but I say to you that everyone who looks
KJV: That whosoever looketh
INT: to you that every one that looks upon
Matthew 5:32 Adj-NMS
GRK: ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ ἀπολύων
NAS: but I say to you that everyone who divorces
INT: to you that everyone who shall divorce
Matthew 6:29 Adj-DFS
GRK: Σολομὼν ἐν πάσῃ τῇ δόξῃ
NAS: Solomon in all his glory
KJV: Solomon in all his glory
INT: Solomon in all the glory
Matthew 6:32 Adj-ANP
GRK: πάντα γὰρ ταῦτα
NAS: eagerly seek all these things;
KJV: after all these things
INT: all indeed these things
Matthew 6:33 Adj-NNP
GRK: καὶ ταῦτα πάντα προστεθήσεται ὑμῖν
NAS: and His righteousness, and all these things
KJV: and all these things
INT: and these things all will be added to you
Matthew 7:8 Adj-NMS
GRK: πᾶς γὰρ ὁ
NAS: For everyone who asks receives,
KJV: For every one that asketh receiveth;
INT: everyone indeed who


Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

Will draw all men unto me.—Better, . . . unto Myself. The words “all men” are not to be limited by interpretations which refer them to nations, or to elect persons within nations; but are to be taken in all the fulness of their width as meaning simply what they say—“all.” The drawing unto Himself is the assertion of His reign over the world, from which the prince of evil shall be cast out. He will Himself be the centre of the new kingdom, from which none shall be shut out. These Greeks who are drawn to Him now are the first-fruits of the harvest of which the whole world is the field, and of which the last day is to be the great in gathering. The word “draw” occurs once in the New Testament, besides this passage, in a moral sense (John 6:44; comp. Note on it there). It is accomplished in the work of the Holy Spirit, whose mission to the Church was dependent on the ascension of our Lord (John 7:39; John 16:7); and the promise is fulfilled even in the case of those who resist the Holy Spirit’s influence. They are drawn by the moral power of the life and death and resurrection of Christ brought home to them by the Holy Ghost; but no moral power can compel a will which is free.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Be lifted up - See John 3:14; John 8:28.Will draw - John 6:44. The same word is used in both places.All men - I will incline all kinds of men; or will make the way open by the cross, so that all men may come. I will provide a way which shall present a strong motive or inducement - the strongest that can be presented to all men to come to me.

I don't know where G777 gets his info, but he needs to throw it away.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

LOL....everyone knows the sky is really purple...

Honestly I don't know how you "heretics" that see things differently then some others don't get burned at the stake anymore....

Now I am certain that you have no idea what you are saying. First you say one thing, then another! You can't even stick to your conviction on what color the sky is sweetheart!

 

[Stephen63]

This is totally laughable....the word Sweetheart is the problem.... I guess, I should go and make a complaint at Taco Bell because when I got a breakfast burrito this morning the lady at the drive through called me Sweetheart....

But if she would have called me a liar that would've been cool, huh?

Haahaahaa.....straining at a gnat again, are they?

 

[PeterJens]

The Sky is blue when there are no clouds in it and it is daylight

They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
2 Peter 2:13


he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'
Rev 7:14-17

 

[Grace777x70]

Here's the Greek of John 12:31 for those that like that sort of thing and as you can see - there ain't no "men" in the Greek. I know, I know, we have been taught this all our live sin our church teachings but hey "stuff happens" sometimes to our church teachings.

Personally I think it's exciting to know our Lord took all the judgment to Himself in His great love for us. He has vengeance on everything that is out to destroy those whom He loves dearly.

John 12:32 Interlinear: and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'

 

[Depleted]

But if they are not predestined or elect they cannot. Why torment them with eternal life if they cannot possess it?

God reaches down to man but man does not reach up to God.

Esau wept bitterly but could not recover his birthright.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yeah, really. Go to Death Row and let them know how to get out, then watch the torment as they runaway from that news.

Honestly? We're on Death Row because we deserve it. If we refuse God, we still deserve it. If we don't refuse God, we still deserve it. But Jesus is the only dude with the key to unlock the door! We can't get out of their by our choice.

Hubby read this in the news the other day. A man was dying. His ex-wife visited him and told him that it's official. Trump is being impeached. He was happy with this news, and died.

So, now he's dead. Do you honestly think he's still happy with that news or face-to-face with God finally realizing Romans 1:18-23 is true. THIS is the reality of the unelected. We preach the good news to have the elect be saved, not to turn God's wrath away from the unelected. Or seriously? Don't you believe the reality that is Romans 1?

Romans 1:[FONT=&quot]18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.[/FONT]

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yeah thanks, but I hold no animosity for anyone here. I can have a disagreement with someone without name calling and say they are lying because I don't agree with them.

But to call some one a liar and then get offended and cry because they call you sweetheart is pretty lame if you ask me.

But I'm not going to keep interrupting this thread and engaging in this baby bull crap.

So peace y'all I'm out.

You were able to agree when I said she maybe could have been more gentle in how she spoke but you can't at all see there may have been a little "polite/ passive-aggressive return fire in "listen, sweetheart?" If a man (or even your brother or sister) slaps your cheek or offends you, turn to them your other cheek. She didn't pound nails into your hands and feet, sister. She may have spoke rashly or not as gentle as she could, that's all. Have you never regretted the way you spoke or asked to be forgiven for your crossness? Are either of you perfect yet?

You're in a race now to see who will get the greater blessing for being a peacemaker!

Will we trun the other cheek to our enemies if we can't even do so among each other?

 

[Stephen63]

Are you really working for unity of any sort here? Are you really bearing with this brother? We love Bruce, even if we don't agree with everything he says sometimes. We plainly see his heart for us. We think he sees our heart for him too. I don't think you're going to get many responses. We are intent on learning to walk in the Spirit more consistently. We are intent on His love increasing.

Well, sweatheart, if you walk in the Spirit, you won't have anything to do with heresy.

There's something wrong when false doctrine is being spread & people say, "can't we all just get along?"

 

[Grace777x70]

Now I am certain that you have no idea what you are saying. First you say one thing, then another! You can't even stick to your conviction on what color the sky is sweetheart!

What? The sky is not green....lol

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Well, sweatheart, if you walk in the Spirit, you won't have anything to do with heresy.

There's something wrong when false doctrine is being spread & people say, "can't we all just get along?"

I'm praying you will not stir up the flesh of any of us with this behavior! I'm praying HARD!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Sigh, have to go. Once again I have enjoyed speaking with you all.
You're sweethearts!
(Except for cantaloupe head!) Private joke there. Only cantaloupe head will understand it, sorry.

 

[PeterJens]

God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
1 Cor 5:13

Some think God sees the wicked as righteous because of Christ.

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Isaiah 5:20

There is nothing new under the sun, people have been covering up sin for
as long as there have been people to cover it up.