Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[notuptome]

First of all, I just want to say that we can't know for 100% who is absolutely correct here because we are not God. I don't want you to think I am being prideful or condescending....

But, some have 'chosen' God and some have not.

What is in the ones who have chosen God that make them better equipped to respond than the ones who did not? Whatever it is, don't they then have room to boast?

I have more faith, I have more intelligence, I have more goodness, than you... etc???

Like this discussion there is some truth seen in what you say. Only God knows and He is not telling the rest of us. We are to treat everyone as though they will respond to the gospel. We are bound to be disappointed that not all will be glad and receive the gospel truth. Jesus died so that whosoever will may come.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I cannot explain why some will not come to Christ. It makes no sense that someone would choose to remain in sin and perish for all of eternity. Yet if the Holy Spirit had not made it real to me that my sin would cause me to eternally condemned I too would have chosen to work my way to heaven being no worse than those around me with whom I was acquainted. You know the way that seems right to man but the end thereof is death.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[1ofthem]

John 3:19-20. We resisted. All of us!
John 3:21 -- the Father wrought.

Ok let's try and get this straight. You say I'm lying, but I am really trying to understand what you believe. So I want to hear in your own words exactly what you think those scriptures mean.

 

[BeyondET]

I can rock with that! That it applies back to the entire previous sentence makes sense. It was only when it was not applied at all to the faith that I couldn't grasp how not. My entire thought is that to say the faith was not a gift is to take a gift from God and then condemn someone who has not yet received that gift. But then y'all have probably already gleaned my thought on it or how I see it.

Well yes I agree, we shouldn't condemn someone for not yet seeing something that another might see. God is patient and it's something we all should practice me included. Thoughts and views won't always quite line up on everything all the time it takes time sometimes. we never know when maybe one day that same person might reflect back on things and say to them selves, well then what do you know there it is.

 

[notuptome]

Here's a sentence from a well-known novel you probably read somewhere in your life.
"Thirty yards of board fence nine feet high."*

There you go. Now, want to extrapolate the whole story from that one sentence? That's what you're doing with Romans, so why not from that book too. Crystal clear what that book is and how the entire story is framed around that one sentence, right?

No? Same thing with Romans. You can't go off with one little verse, especially when the verse starts with "For," which clearly makes it obvious you have to understand what comes before it to get to that part, and pretend your proof of whatever you want it to say is right. You have to keep it in context! (Same thing with John 3:16, since you're doing the same little game there.)

Romans covers all of it. It is the Christian treatise. It is exactly who God is, what he's doing, why, and how. It is built layer upon layer to prove the point. And Romans 12 anything isn't the point! It's our reaction to the point.

John 3:16 is part of the point, but Jesus talked at length to that soldier and John 3:16 alone is simply avoiding all the other points Jesus made, to be comfy cozy in what Jesus was saying, versus dealing with what he said!

Want to read the point? Then read all of Romans, because every objection you have to God choosing is asked and answered in that book. Want to know who God regenerates and how? Then read everything Jesus said to that soldier instead of the one isolated part you really like. God is in there! He is the point! He did it all. Even the choosing. God saves his people. We do NOT save ourselves by choice! You really don't have to praise God from setting you free from Death Row if you walked out on your own!




*Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain. (And that's the description of the fence that had to be whitewashed, so it really did add to the story, but it is NOT the story.)

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

An extra couple feet of fence. Does all men mean all men?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[1ofthem]

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

An extra couple feet of fence. Does all men mean all men?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen.......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

.................

And that was saying it nicely!!

 

[Depleted]

I am not joking about this - I had no idea sweetheart was a derogatory word. When did THAT happen?

The 1970s. lol

"Sweetheart, get me a coffee." (Said by boss to secretary.)

"You have no idea what you're talking about, sweetheart." (Said by anyone who thinks they are so much better than the "sweetheart.")

"Sweetheart, don't you worry your pretty little brain over this. I'll take care of it." (Said by many bosses to many women over the years when the woman brought up a suggestion to improve something.)

Sweetheart is used in two senses.
-- To a loved one who accepts the term as endearing.
-- To put someone in their place.

Men used to "sweetheart" many women, even ones they didn't know. They thought they had authority over them simply because of their gender.

Women "sweetheart" their family in one way and then think they gain authority over other women or children by using it in the other way. (I could tell the difference when Mom or Gram called me "sweetheart." Sometimes it was endearing. Other times it was "behave now, or else." lol) They would never "sweetheart" a man the way they do that to other women or children.

(Hey, I am a feminist and a Christian. It's possible to be both. lol)

 

[Grace777x70]

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

An extra couple feet of fence. Does all men mean all men?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Well...to be truthful here. It doesn't say that "all men" will be drawn to Jesus in John 12:32. In context it says that "all will be drawn to Him". The "men" was added by the translators.

There is no Greek word for "men" in the text.

The "all" is referring to judgment - all judgment will be drawn to Christ when He is lifted up - signifying the type of death He should have - taking sin upon Himself - but I believe all judgment included "all the sin that men and women everywhere had on them". God didn't pick and choose who's judgment He took upon Himself on the cross. He took it for all!

Let's look at it in context with the man-made addition taken out.

John 12:31-33 (NASB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

[SUP]32 [/SUP] "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

[SUP]33[/SUP] But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

 

[Depleted]

I don't think I'm a one time case...I think there are others who just suddenly saw one day. It can't be just me. Out of millions of people? And it's okay. You don't have to discuss with me. I won't be offended.

I've told my story often enough on here. I've told my husband's story, and a friend's story. (The friend was going to his father's wedding with the plan to kill him because his father became born again and then wanted to marry a woman who was also into that crazy religious junk too. The Lord regenerated him at the wedding. lol)

I've never met anyone who truly chose -- no one who thought out the pros and cons, and then decided one way or the other. It hits and zap! That's it. The confusion left after that is the "And now what do I do?" Granted, that's heavy-duty confusion, especially if it hits without anyone to talk to, but it is an after-the-fact time, not the process toward the time.

 

[notmyown]

The 1970s. lol

"Sweetheart, get me a coffee." (Said by boss to secretary.)

"You have no idea what you're talking about, sweetheart." (Said by anyone who thinks they are so much better than the "sweetheart.")

"Sweetheart, don't you worry your pretty little brain over this. I'll take care of it." (Said by many bosses to many women over the years when the woman brought up a suggestion to improve something.)

Sweetheart is used in two senses.
-- To a loved one who accepts the term as endearing.
-- To put someone in their place.

Men used to "sweetheart" many women, even ones they didn't know. They thought they had authority over them simply because of their gender.

Women "sweetheart" their family in one way and then think they gain authority over other women or children by using it in the other way. (I could tell the difference when Mom or Gram called me "sweetheart." Sometimes it was endearing. Other times it was "behave now, or else." lol) They would never "sweetheart" a man the way they do that to other women or children.

(Hey, I am a feminist and a Christian. It's possible to be both. lol)

i never used an endearment with our kiddos when they were in trouble.
i used their first AND middle names, as prescribed in the mom handbook.

i know this isn't what you're talking about here, but i do at times call some of the young people on the site "honey" or "sweetheart"...
because i'm really quite fond of them. and i suppose it's a bad mom habit?

i wonder if i should cease and desist?

 

[Depleted]

Lynn, I don't think she is saying it the way you think. She isn't saying: You are saying thus and thus. I think what she is intending to say is: when you say such and such it appears to me like you must be saying thus and thus. I really don't think she was saying that is actually what you personally have said. I could be wrong but I think she is using "you" as a general term, not a personal term.

She's been told the definition many times, in many different ways. She's been shown where it is in the Bible. And yet, she keeps using a different definition. No, that's intentional.

I can understand futzing with the word to fit a particular comfort level, like some people confused foreknowledge to mean predestination. I can even see not particularly liking the concept, but that's not what she's doing. She's reinventing the definition and then claiming it's not Biblical. At least people who rather believe we chose God admit predestination is in the Bible and fight what it means.

1? She's just creating her own definition to deny it's even in the Bible. That's intentional.

 

[1ofthem]

The 1970s. lol

"Sweetheart, get me a coffee." (Said by boss to secretary.)

"You have no idea what you're talking about, sweetheart." (Said by anyone who thinks they are so much better than the "sweetheart.")

"Sweetheart, don't you worry your pretty little brain over this. I'll take care of it." (Said by many bosses to many women over the years when the woman brought up a suggestion to improve something.)

Sweetheart is used in two senses.
-- To a loved one who accepts the term as endearing.
-- To put someone in their place.

Men used to "sweetheart" many women, even ones they didn't know. They thought they had authority over them simply because of their gender.

Women "sweetheart" their family in one way and then think they gain authority over other women or children by using it in the other way. (I could tell the difference when Mom or Gram called me "sweetheart." Sometimes it was endearing. Other times it was "behave now, or else." lol) They would never "sweetheart" a man the way they do that to other women or children.

(Hey, I am a feminist and a Christian. It's possible to be both. lol)

This is totally laughable....the word Sweetheart is the problem.... I guess, I should go and make a complaint at Taco Bell because when I got a breakfast burrito this morning the lady at the drive through called me Sweetheart....

But if she would have called me a liar that would've been cool, huh?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The 1970s. lol

"Sweetheart, get me a coffee." (Said by boss to secretary.)

"You have no idea what you're talking about, sweetheart." (Said by anyone who thinks they are so much better than the "sweetheart.")

"Sweetheart, don't you worry your pretty little brain over this. I'll take care of it." (Said by many bosses to many women over the years when the woman brought up a suggestion to improve something.)

Sweetheart is used in two senses.
-- To a loved one who accepts the term as endearing.
-- To put someone in their place.

Men used to "sweetheart" many women, even ones they didn't know. They thought they had authority over them simply because of their gender.

Women "sweetheart" their family in one way and then think they gain authority over other women or children by using it in the other way. (I could tell the difference when Mom or Gram called me "sweetheart." Sometimes it was endearing. Other times it was "behave now, or else." lol) They would never "sweetheart" a man the way they do that to other women or children.

(Hey, I am a feminist and a Christian. It's possible to be both. lol)

Okay, don't get mad at me please, please - I love you sweetheart.
I want to say that in my opinion, you could have spoken more gently. You could have found a gentler way to speak with a sister than to say she was lying. She bristled a little at the way you said that. And she isn't trying to be intentionally deceitful. She's discussing how she sees and understands. She doesn't appear to me to be one of those who charges into a thread and starts spouting off meanly or arrogantly. Please remember that I love you sweetie! Remember that I love you if what I said makes you mad at me. I'm giving my opinion.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This is totally laughable....the word Sweetheart is the problem.... I guess, I should go and make a complaint at Taco Bell because when I got a breakfast burrito this morning the lady at the drive through called me Sweetheart....

But if she would have called me a liar that would've been cool, huh?

I'll give my opinion here too, and risk the wrath of both of you who I love and care about.
You said it, in my opinion,( in the complete sentence and tone) with some resentment at how she said you were lying. Your response carried some sass. I mean, hey, she called you a liar. And I think you are a sweetheart. And I don't want a cup of coffee.

Love one another and bear with one another. Make peace if it is at all possible. Admit your faults to one another. And PLEASE, tell me when you think I have let my own arrogance rise up, even if you only see it slightly, because then I will know you really love and care about me too and don't want me harmed by even the slightest of my arrogance.

 

[Depleted]

Despite your unnecessarily caustic reply I am universal in Gods call for all to be saved. Not all will be saved because not all will receive so I'm not universalist in the meaning of the term.

It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance not severity. God is merciful and causes it to rain on the good and the evil. Were it not for the mercy of God all men would have perished but Gods mercy holds back His terrible wrath to give men space to repent and receive Christ.

Your understanding causes the conflict between Romans 11:32 and Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:15 not Gods intent. God knows the future but this foreknowledge does not constrain Him to cause certain events to pass. Foreknowledge does not mean predetermination or predestination. Reminds me of the illustration of the Calvinist who fell down the steps at church and broke his arm. He got up and said thank you God I'm glad we got that out of the way. Did God predestine him to fall down the steps and break his arm?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

"Not all will receive." Okay, I get that.

This is what God says on who will receive:
John 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

Now, how do those who love the darkness receive the light?

Trick question. (The answer is in the next verse, if you want to make this an open-book test. lol)

As for foreknowledge.
a. God doesn't know the future. He's God. He created time and space, so he's not linear in needing a past, present, or future. So, no matter what you think foreknowledge means, you can't say that God can see into the future as that definition. He's omniscient. He knows everything and has always known it. To him it is all one huge IS. No past nor future. Even that second that just went by is a second God knows presently always. (This boggles my mind. )

b. No one is arguing foreknowledge. We're arguing predestination.

And, yes, eventually, I do thank God for pain. I have now gotten old enough to see how God has used pain for my good, so yes -- Rom. 8:28, Thank you, Lord even for that. He did predestine both hubby and me (not in that order) to become disabled. It is working out for our good and his glory, so yes! Thank you, Lord!

I mean, I'd rather not be in pain, but I see why he keeps me in it.

 

[Stephen63]

King Saul was born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit even before Christ died on the cross and rose again? That's a new one.

Wow....looks like Christ didn't even need to die for our sins - we can save ourselves by our own works. Christ told Saul that in John14:16 when He said "The Holy Spirit will be with you and in you forever"? Is Jesus really a liar now? I don't believe He is. I'm a believer in what Jesus did for us.

We'll have to throw out all these "new heart" scriptures then. No, I believe I will keep them and have my minds renewed to the truths of the redemption that is in Christ.

God "predestined us to have a new heart that is created in righteousness - His righteousness which cannot be tainted".

This is how G777 purposely twists what you say to mean something perverted.

I only used King Saul as an example to show how someone can be given a new heart & still become corrupted again.

Getting a new heart is a great thing..... but it's no guarantee that it will stay pure. We have to watch our hearts & keep ourselves in the love of God to stay pure.

G777 says Christ's righteousness can't be "tainted" in us. But the Bible says there will be a "falling away" of the saints in the last days, & here we are.

Multiple judgments are listed in Revelation concerning some of those churches..... because pure hearts got corrupted with sin.

 

[BeyondET]

This is totally laughable....the word Sweetheart is the problem.... I guess, I should go and make a complaint at Taco Bell because when I got a breakfast burrito this morning the lady at the drive through called me Sweetheart....

But if she would have called me a liar that would've been cool, huh?

Yum, Yum, breakfast burrito now you've got me hungry, sweetheart...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think I'm a one time case...I think there are others who just suddenly saw one day. It can't be just me. Out of millions of people? And it's okay. You don't have to discuss with me. I won't be offended.

I was not saying you were wrong, Just saying I never saw it like that. It may happen that way with quite a few. But the fact it is not all. Shows that it is more than just a light going on.

 

[Depleted]

It blows my mind how false doctrine is spouted off & nobody notices.

Folks will argue over little things & let this pass right on thru.

Straining at gnats & swallowing camels.

So, G777, since we have a new heart, it's a pure heart & will forever remain pure?

King Saul proved that's not true. He was given a new heart & look at what he done with it.

And look at you & your "friends" on here..... false religion that is slowly changing, getting worse, & you claim all of them have pure hearts.

Fruits alone says that's a crock of bull.

All christians were given a new heart at conversion..... but it can be defiled. It can be hardened.

Just take a look around..... at all of these "pure" hearts.

It's not working, G777.

That did it!

The sky is blue!

I still don't get what Grace means when he tells you that, but this is what I mean. Grace believes the sky is blue. Because he believes the sky is blue, you will dogtail him to the ends of the earth and back again ever determined that he has to agree with "The sky is brown!" It just doesn't matter to you that you too believe the sky is blue, it matters to you that no matter what Grace says, he HAS to be wrong, even at those times when he's not wrong. (Yes, Grace, there are times, you are right. lol)

So, from now on whenever you dogtail him simply to yell at him to prove your righteousness, I'm going to respond with one thing I know you BOTH agree with.

THE SKY IS BLUE!

You ain't working, sooooo

THE SKY IS BLUE!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This is how G777 purposely twists what you say to mean something perverted.

I only used King Saul as an example to show how someone can be given a new heart & still become corrupted again.

Getting a new heart is a great thing..... but it's no guarantee that it will stay pure. We have to watch our hearts & keep ourselves in the love of God to stay pure.

G777 says Christ's righteousness can't be "tainted" in us. But the Bible says there will be a "falling away" of the saints in the last days, & here we are.

Multiple judgments are listed in Revelation concerning some of those churches..... because pure hearts got corrupted with sin.

Are you really working for unity of any sort here? Are you really bearing with this brother? We love Bruce, even if we don't agree with everything he says sometimes. We plainly see his heart for us. We think he sees our heart for him too. I don't think you're going to get many responses. We are intent on learning to walk in the Spirit more consistently. We are intent on His love increasing.