TRIBULATION LIE

[miknik5]

It is true that the term "day of the Lord" can refer to more than one thing depending on the context of what you are reading. But for sure the term does refer to the second coming of the Messiah. In 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 are definitely talking about the second coming of Messiah, and we agree that at that time the saints will be caught up into the air to meet Him, but the verses in question never say that we will go to heaven, simply that we will always be with Him, it doesn't say where. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 does not explain what happens after we are caught up into the air, but the prophet Zechariah does.

Zechariah 14:1-5
1. Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5. Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

the term "day of the lord" here is also speaking of the scond coming of Messiah. Notice that at that time Zechariah tells us He will come down, set His feet on the mount of Olives, it will split making a valley. And at this point Messiah will come down and "His saints with Him". 1 Thessalonians tells us that when Messiah returns the saints will be caught up into the air to meet Yahushua, the dead in Messiah first then those who are still alive, Zechariah tells us that after that Yahushau will come down on Jerusalem, with us who had just met Him in the air, (His saints)to begin His reign on earth. Who else could Zechariah be refering to as "saints" if not us? If you believe that the saints will be going to and living in Heaven you will need to provide Scripture to prove it brother.

Thank you
We all have understanding from the LORD but not one of us has complete understanding
which is why we are to speak with each other and remind one another of the scriptures

 

[Bladerunner]

[SUP]62 [/SUP]And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” [SUP]63 [/SUP]But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”

[SUP]64 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Did the High Priest see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of God and coming with the clouds (armies) of heaven? Christ said he would. Should we take Christ at His word? I think it would be wise to do so.

Jesus predicted the same thing in Mat 24, right?

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Therefore immediately after the great tribulation of the Jews in 70 AD, Christ is seen with the armies of heaven. He was coming to pass judgment and to execute wrath on those who killed Him. Those of that "faithless and perverse" generation. Is there any room for doubt here? What else did Christ say in Mat 24?

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

This can only mean that the generation which killed Him would see EVERYTHING that Christ foretold and it will all happen in their generation.

You said: "Should we take Christ at His word? I think it would be wise to do so."

Yet you and preterist,post-tribers, etc. dispute HIS word throughout Revelation.

I guess the question you and others should be asking... When the Rapture happens (and it will happen), because you believe in Jesus yet are not watching for it (the Rapture), will you be taken to heaven anyway????? or will you be like the unwatching 5 virgins and be left behind.

ARE YOU that SURE????Really......because I AM that SURE about the happening of the RAPTURE.

 

[Bladerunner]

You actually need to remember and not think what Paul was reminding the Thessalonians in his second letter to them

it had to do with THE COMING OF THE LORD and that this day would not come until all things are accomplished

one of those things being 2thesselonians 2 so that the man of sin may be revealed

paul says in his second letter "don't you remember I told you these things?"

now go back to the first letter

miknik5..the second letter (actually the third) was written to address a forged letter to them telling them they had already missed the savior. without going into a bunch of history, Paul wrote the third (we know it as the 2nd Thes.). It was a you stated, made to make them remember what he had said in the first.

 

[AbdiyEL]

You said: "Should we take Christ at His word? I think it would be wise to do so."

Yet you and preterist,post-tribers, etc. dispute HIS word throughout Revelation.

I guess the question you and others should be asking... When the Rapture happens (and it will happen), because you believe in Jesus yet are not watching for it (the Rapture), will you be taken to heaven anyway????? or will you be like the unwatching 5 virgins and be left behind.

ARE YOU that SURE????Really......because I AM that SURE about the happening of the RAPTURE.

You need to read "all" of Matthew 24 brother. The "generation" spoken of is the Generation of "the future". Yahushua is talking about the future Tribulation spoken of by the Prophets and by John in the book of Revelation, not the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Yes, there are parellels, when Jerusalem was surrounded in 70 AD many Jews did flee to Petra in the mountains, as Yahushua said to do, Messianic Jews. But this was all a foreshadow and Prophetic picture of the Greater world wide Tribulation that was and is yet to come. Jerusalem will be surrounded again in the end time, that's what we read in Zechariah and Revelation, and when the antichrist comes we are comanded to flee and hide. And why would we be told to do that if there was a "rapture" coming to save us from the trouble? Again read Matthew 24 in full. The clean undisputed context is the future Tribulation.

 

[miknik5]

You need to read "all" of Matthew 24 brother. The "generation" spoken of is the Generation of "the future". Yahushua is talking about the future Tribulation spoken of by the Prophets and by John in the book of Revelation, not the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Yes, there are parellels, when Jerusalem was surrounded in 70 AD many Jews did flee to Petra in the mountains, as Yahushua said to do, Messianic Jews. But this was all a foreshadow and Prophetic picture of the Greater world wide Tribulation that was and is yet to come. Jerusalem will be surrounded again in the end time, that's what we read in Zechariah and Revelation, and when the antichrist comes we are comanded to flee and hide. And why would we be told to do that if there was a "rapture" coming to save us from the trouble? Again read Matthew 24 in full. The clean undisputed context is the future Tribulation.

I don't agree that it's a future generation

I believe that the current and future generation are those who benefitted by CHRIST's first physical coming
i believe there is only two generations spoken of:

the generation prior to CHRIST's first physical coming
and the current generation who benefitted by HIS first coming and the preaching of THE GOSPEL

Which will also be the generation which will be judged more harshly

this is why it is written a wicked generation asks for a sign but none shall be given it except the sign of Jonah

for we know that generation repented at the words of Jonah. Yet ONE GREATER than Jonah has chosen me

(and the world continues in disbelief)

thats why the mn of ninevah will stand in the judgement and condemn this generation

because this is the generation who benefitted by THE GOSPEL but will also be the generation who will be judged more harshly

 

[Bladerunner]

2 thess 2 does not mention the Great Tribulation at the end of the age, which is an invention of modern day people. The Great Tribulation was a Jewish time which commenced in 70 ad. The great tribulation in Revelation had commenced in John's day.

In Mat 24:21..."For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The 'FOR THEN shall be' tells us it is in the FUTURE but not 70AD.

Jesus tells in this verse: such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be...... and then He tells us....

Mat 24:22.."And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

NOW let me ask you...... What Tribulations happened in 70AD that would have killed everybody in the WORLD had they not been shortened. Let's earthquakes, pestilences, starvation,,,,,, REM THE WHOLE WORLD..... Please Show me where this happened.

I thought that 1 million Jews died in Israel. BUT Israel was not the WHOLE WORLD....Even the Flood did not kill everybody.

If you dispute the Whole WORD,,, would the ELECT ALL COME FROM ISRAEL

I would suggest you look to REV 11 to Find out what the Great Tribulations are! They did not happen in 70AD nor did they happen in 167BC.

OH, the Abomination of Desolation did not happen in 70AD either,,,someone just told you that.

 

[miknik5]

Oh boy!

big typo!

one greater than Jonah has come!!!

not one greater than Jonah has chosen me!!!!

sp sorry for that confusion
o am in a constant battle with auto correct

 

[Bladerunner]

it is you that is adding to it with all your false ideas.

Originally Posted by valiant The 1000 year (a long unspecified period of time) reign is already occurring. Compare in OT '1000 generations'., How? The Ezekiel temple was raised up by God in Ezekiel's time, visible to Ezekiel, as an enouragement. , I am not sure of a prwteib rapture bug I know those who hold to the Testimony of Jesus have a part in the first resurrection the first resurrection is the spiritual resurrection of Eph 2.6. Compare John 5.25.

Quote Originally Posted by PrynceNY View Post
The 1000 year reign of Christ is not currently happening. The book of Relevation warns us not to add or take anything away from it

Mr. Valiant...May I ask you a question....... Where is Jesus in this 1000 year reign of yours??????? He is supposed to be in Jerusalem but I think they really believe in him or at least anything other than an man. What about his temple and the Holy of Hollies??????? Does HE live in a ordinary House. Oh,,, Are not the saints supposed to be Kings and Priest over the population.... Were not the Population of the WHOLE EARTH suppose to live to be 100 years old and if they did except Christ live for the remaining years of the 1000 years reign. If they did not they would die.

I know he is there in SPIRIT only.......This what he said,,,I guess I missed it and really cannot find it either....Please a little help from out there in preterist or post-triber land.

OR you just trash the Book of Revelation because it does not fit and is only symbolism anyways.

Funny,,,I thought it was the WORDs of GOD.

 

[valiant]

In Mat 24:21..."For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The 'FOR THEN shall be' tells us it is in the FUTURE but not 70AD.

Why and how? It reads like 70 ad to me.

Jesus tells in this verse: such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

which has been true of the tribulation of the Jews from 70 ad onwards. Never before or since have any people suffered tribulation like it.

..... and then He tells us....

Mat 24:22.."And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
NOW let me ask you...... What Tribulations happened in 70AD that would have killed everybody in the WORLD had they not been shortened.

The 'no flesh' refers to the people He is talking about, not to everyone in the world. Had He not shortened the days no Jew would have survived. And it did not happen in 70 ad it BEGAN in 70 ad.


L

et's earthquakes, pestilences, starvation,,,,,, REM THE WHOLE WORLD..... Please Show me where this happened.

He referred to all flesh among the Jews. All flesh is a general description to be discovered from context. e.g. Acts 1.17.

I thought that 1 million Jews died in Israel. BUT Israel was not the WHOLE WORLD

.

Actually many more. But it is irrelevant,. And it does not say the whole world.


..

Even the Flood did not kill everybody.

and yet it says there ALL FLESH, which proves my point.

If you dispute the Whole WORD,,, would the ELECT ALL COME FROM ISRAEL

It does not say all the elect. It spoke of the elect among the Jews.

I would suggest you look to REV 11 to Find out what the Great Tribulations are!

irrelevant. and they are not described as great tribulation,

They did not happen in 70AD nor did they happen in 167BC.

the great tribulation of the Jews as been from 70 ad to the present day.

OH, the Abomination of Desolation did not happen in 70AD either,,,someone just told you that.

yes it was Jesus. I think I'll stick with Him.

 

[Bladerunner]

The false Christs and false prophets have come. More may yet come. Initially the false Christ was the Roman Emperor and the False Prophet the state religion. Islam is ready to again unveil both.

Revelation is symbolic and refers to continuing events

How does it refer to continuing events if the 1000 year reign is supposed to be after Daniel's 70th week.

What False CHRIST---Have not heard about that one yet? Care to produce evidence or maybe not ---you choose.

False Christ the Roman EMperor-----WHich one....

Do we have a current state religion or a world religion...I missed that one as well.

Now Islam is something I can get into...They are going to unveil both WHAT...WHEN.... I missed that one as well.

I am getting slow in my old age,,, I missed everything told to us from this post.

 

[AbdiyEL]

I don't agree that it's a future generation

I believe that the current and future generation are those who benefitted by CHRIST's first physical coming
i believe there is only two generations spoken of:

the generation prior to CHRIST's first physical coming
and the current generation who benefitted by HIS first coming and the preaching of THE GOSPEL

Which will also be the generation which will be judged more harshly

this is why it is written a wicked generation asks for a sign but none shall be given it except the sign of Jonah

for we know that generation repented at the words of Jonah. Yet ONE GREATER than Jonah has chosen me

(and the world continues in disbelief)

thats why the mn of ninevah will stand in the judgement and condemn this generation

because this is the generation who benefitted by THE GOSPEL but will also be the generation who will be judged more harshly

I can probably agree with your understanding of the generation spoken of in Matthew 24. As long as it's understood that the tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 has not yet come, as some on here are saying it has. A generation in Scripture does not always mean the life span of a person or family, as I think you are trying to say, a Generation can refer to a period of time greater than a persons lifespan.

 

[miknik5]

I don't agree that it's a future generation

I believe that the current and future generation are those who benefitted by CHRIST's first physical coming
i believe there is only two generations spoken of:

the generation prior to CHRIST's first physical coming
and the current generation who benefitted by HIS first coming and the preaching of THE GOSPEL

Which will also be the generation which will be judged more harshly

this is why it is written a wicked generation asks for a sign but none shall be given it except the sign of Jonah

for we know that generation repented at the words of Jonah. Yet ONE GREATER than Jonah has chosen me

(and the world continues in disbelief)

thats why the mn of ninevah will stand in the judgement and condemn this generation
NBC
because this is the generation who benefitted by THE GOSPEL but will also be the generation who will be judged more harshly

because we had all the benefits to come to HIM and still we continued in disbelief

Oh boy!

big typo!

Yet one greater than Jonah has come!!!


not one greater than Jonah has chosen me!!!!

So sorry for that confusion
I am in a constant battle with auto correct

I am sorry , I had to correct this and hope it is more clear I highlighted on red what was posted which Should have said

ONE GREATER than Jonah has come

It was very important for me to correct this

 

[valiant]

Mr. Valiant...May I ask you a question....... Where is Jesus in this 1000 year reign of yours???????

He is reigning in Heaven with the SOULS of the martyrs

He is supposed to be in Jerusalem

Only by you. Revelation 20 does not mention Jerusalem, nor does it say He is reigning on earth,

W

hat about his temple and the Holy of Hollies??????? Does HE live in a ordinary House.

Both in Heaven where He is reigning

Oh,,, Are not the saints supposed to be Kings and Priest over the population....

yes they rule with Jesus in Heaven.

Were not the Population of the WHOLE EARTH suppose to live to be 100 years old and if they did except Christ live for the remaining years of the 1000 years reign.

Irrelevant to the issue. Christ reigns for '1000 years' (a long period of time) in Heaven

I know he is there in SPIRIT only.......This what he said,,,I guess I missed it and really cannot find it either....Please a little help from out there in preterist or post-triber land.

LOL

OR you just trash the Book of Revelation because it does not fit and is only symbolism anyways.

It fits perfectly when understood correctly. It is the word of God. It is modern interpretations that trash it.

Funny,,,I thought it was the WORDs of GOD.

Funny, so did I. And I interpret it that way,

 

[miknik5]

I can probably agree with your understanding of the generation spoken of in Matthew 24. As long as it's understood that the tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 has not yet come, as some on here are saying it has. A generation in Scripture does not always mean the life span of a person or family, as I think you are trying to say, a Generation can refer to a period of time greater than a persons lifespan.

Yes o don't agree that what is spoken of in Matthew 24! has happened yet

 

[Bladerunner]

Yep,I rarely address them. I got saved in a preterist church. I was a brand new believer,and found myself getting "straightened out" by the pastor. Somehow I knew he was wrong. I did my own research,and saw his deal was impossible. I can not believe anyone could take that deal seriously.

popeye good day to you...If only others would do their own research but alas, it will not be. As one Preterist said " there is nothing you can say that will change my mind." So SAD

Hope you have a Blessed day

Blade

 

[PrynceNY]

He is reigning in Heaven with the SOULS of the martyrs Only by you. Revelation 20 does not mention Jerusalem, nor does it say He is reigning on earth, W Both in Heaven where He is reigning yes they rule with Jesus in Heaven. Irrelevant to the issue. Christ reigns for '1000 years' (a long period of time) in Heaven LOL It fits perfectly when understood correctly. It is the word of God. It is modern interpretations that trash it. Funny, so did I. And I interpret it that way,

I seriously encourage you to read the book of revelation. Unsure where you get your information from.

 

[miknik5]

Valiant?

a thousand years is a day to THE LORD

Thats why it's "a thousand years" because HE knows already the end from the beginning
HE knows the souls who will rebel even after having enjoyed such a period of peace since Satan had been bound

 

[valiant]

How does it refer to continuing events if the 1000 year reign is supposed to be after Daniel's 70th week.

Why should it be after Daniels 70 th week.? Or do you accept that day = a year nonsemse

What False CHRIST---Have not heard about that one yet?

Then its time you knew some history,

Care to produce evidence or maybe not ---you choose.

Jesus said there would be a number. One we know of was Bar Kochba. Look up Wikipedia for others.

False Christ the Roman EMperor-----WHich one

....

all the roman emperors were 'anointed'. they carried on a sequence

Do we have a current state religion or a world religion...I missed that one as well.

there are number of state religions. There will not necessarily be a world religion. That is your interpretation.

Now Islam is something I can get into...They are going to unveil both WHAT...WHEN.... I missed that one as well.

you are childish.

I am getting slow in my old age,,, I missed everything told to us from this post.

I didn't like to say senile. But now you admit it.

 

[miknik5]

Valiant?
the souls under the altar are waiting till the full number of those who will be martyred just as they had been is complete

this only proves that absent frim the body IS present with THE LORD fior those who have a part in the first resurrection

 

[Bladerunner]

Satan is bound up until Rev 9.1-11. He was bound by Christ Himself (Matt 12.29). That cannot be denied. What the binding of Satan involves is another matter. He is held back by 'him that restrains'.

WHOA! Where does it say Satan was Bound until Rev 9:1-11....Satan is in Heaven until the beginning of 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week. Rev 9:11 "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." NOT SATAN

mat 12:29.." Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

This verse is metaphorically speaking about how one would spoil the goods in a house of a strongman. Yes, first you Bind HIM...

Jesus does not say he is Binding Satan here. Satan is in Heaven or He cannot fall from Heaven in Rev 11:7-9.

EVIL --Evil in man is what the Restrainer (Holy Spirit) is restraining. Satan was restrained by God from the Beginning. He has very little power at this time. (i.e. he or the demons has to be asked to come in.) He is also the Prince of the EARTH not HELL.

Summary...You are way off base here. try again.