Study on Apostasy.

[mailmandan]

How can one be so blind to scripture?

Paul would not be warning them if it wasn't possible.

If I'm so blind to scripture, then show me where Paul said they "lost their salvation." "I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind" doesn't sound like a loss of salvation to me. Again, the present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law as a result of getting side tracked by false teachers, but obviously, they had not fully come to that place yet, hence verse 10. You can say it's "possible" to "lose salvation" all day long, but where did Paul specifically say it happened?

A good leader will always be confident in his people. But thats just what that is confidence. Paul would not be a good influential leader if he wasn't confident.

Confident in them, in the Lord, that they will have no other mind is the opposite of confidence in them losing their salvation.

Galatians 3:3 whats your point?

As in Galatians 5:4, the present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law, but had not fully come to that place yet and once again, in Galatians 3:3, the middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. In both cases, it's not a done deal.

 

[Grace777x70]

Your right grace wouldn't work if they had fell from grace lol you say i need to learn the gospel but i think its you that cant except what the gospel says.

All these scriptures that i have posted on this thread are directed to salvation. And by no means of lack of proof.

But i understand if you believed something for a very long time. Its almost impossible to believe differently.

The only way is to always stay open minded. I guess old dogs cant learn new tricks. I guess what we believe as a infant believer is never suppose to grow.

Jesus did tell me i would be criticized for speaking truth. Im just thankful its only a few of yall.

I funny thing is - I was religiously taught in my Pentecostal background this graceless non-gospel that people lose their salvation and believed it for decades.

Then the Lord on His own one morning started dropping scriptures into my spirit and low and behold when I finally looked around on the internet. - it was the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection that the Holy Spirit taught me even before I had a clue what people called it. The irony of it makes me laugh.

The funny thing is that Jesus told me that I would be criticized for telling of His grace and love for people. Go figure eh?...

I have heard this very same story from many people on how the Lord started to show them His love and grace towards them in Christ's finished work. He will do the same for you too. He will be faithful to all of us. Bless you. I believe you have a good heart.

 

[mailmandan]

I funny thing is - I was religiously taught in my Pentecostal background this graceless non-gospel that people lose their salvation and believed it for decades.

Then the Lord on His own one morning started dropping scriptures into my spirit and low and behold when I finally looked around on the internet. - it was the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection that the Holy Spirit taught me even before I had a clue what people called it. The irony of it makes me laugh.

The funny thing is that Jesus told me that I would be criticized for telling of His grace and love for people. Go figure eh?...

I have heard this very same story from many people on how the Lord started to show them His love and grace towards them in Christ's finished work. He will do the same for you too. He will be faithful to all of us. Bless you. I believe you have a good heart.

In my Roman Catholic background, I was taught that people can lose their salvation and Catholicism teaches a perverted gospel of "performance based works salvation." Thank God I escaped the bondage of Roman Catholicism!

I once knew a man who attended an Assemblies of God church and he was always terrified that he was going to lose his salvation. He would mess up in one way or another then practically be in tears, fearing that he lost his salvation. Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The question is did Antinomianism find its way back into the church as a more of hidden holy look somewhere throughout history.

We should examine each generation of history. What was the message from the church during each generation.
And so by examining the generations of the church message dating back to the early church. Which belief holds true to the traditional teaching of the early church.

 

[Grace777x70]

In my Roman Catholic background, I was taught that people can lose their salvation and Catholicism teaches a perverted gospel of "performance based works salvation." Thank God I escaped the bondage of Roman Catholicism!

I once knew a man who attended an Assemblies of God church and he was always terrified that he was going to lose his salvation. He would mess up in one way or another then practically be in tears, fearing that he lost his salvation. Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.

I believe it. I heard 2 different Dr's talk about the number of Christian people in mental institutions because of this false teaching. They went crazy with the mental attacks on their minds about their salvation in Christ. It's a horrible, destructive doctrine to the body of Christ.

The warnings do have their place but after the foundation of the true gospel is laid down correctly. Walking by the flesh bring destruction in this life - from having malice to living the homosexual lifestyle.

Without the proper foundation in Christ being built - it becomes a destructive subtle beast with many forms and nuances and they all nullify the very grace of God that is in Christ from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

It comes "as a minister of righteousness." so it has the "appearance" of good but as Paul says - it denies the very power of God for real transformation by the Spirit. It appeals to the flesh and our own sense of "doing something".

It's the world's belief system that was brought in by the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. People are still eating from this fruit and experiencing death.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I believe it. I heard 2 different Dr's talk about the number of Christian people in mental institutions because of this false teaching. They went crazy with the mental attacks on their minds about their salvation in Christ. It's a horrible, destructive doctrine to the body of Christ.

The warnings do have their place but after the foundation of the true gospel is laid down correctly. Walking by the flesh bring destruction in this life - from having malice to living the homosexual lifestyle.

Without the proper foundation in Christ being built - it becomes a destructive subtle beast with many forms and nuances and they all nullify the very grace of God that is in Christ from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

It comes "as a minister of righteousness." so it has the "appearance" of good but as Paul says - it denies the very power of God for real transformation by the Spirit. It appeals to the flesh and our own sense of "doing something".

It's the world's belief system that was brought in by the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. People are still eating from this fruit and experiencing death.

Then they was taught the wrong gospel. I feel unexplainable love from my father and no where near going crazy over what i believe. Neither are the regular attenders at my church. I see love at church.

If God only asks of us to put faith in him. Then thats what i shall do. I put all my faith into him because i am hopeless and helpless on my own.

How would that make anyone go crazy? Maybe we all got to have a crazy hair to believe in the things unseen.

My gospel says that i can rely on God in all of my lifes circumstances, temptation, trials, tribulations, and weakness of self.

If you take my reliance on God away. If you take my walk away from God like yall are trying to do with your puppet theology, then i would go crazy. Because then in my failures i would be pondering if im really a true believer. If i had enough faith at the beginning to be a true believer.

Or maybe most people do truly believe at the start and its our surrender to God in faithfulness that gives us the strength to persevere. A free will thing not a God makes us sorta thing.

God is able, if we are willing to let him.

If we are willing to trust him.

Faith is not a work. Not to get mixed up with true faith will produce good works. Anything done while following the Spirit is good work.

Trying to work ones way to salvation is unbiblical but apostasy is not unbiblical.

I would have to say everything in the tulip concept is unbiblical and contradicting.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

But i will continue my study and proof of truth. I started this thread not to debate someones set in stone belief and all other beliefs are anti gospel. In which if i wanted i could use the same way of thinking about others beliefs. But it just comes down to we are one body with i diversity of interpretations.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Yall believe if someone falls away they was not truly saved, so you preach in way to bring them into true belief.

We believe if someone falls away its a sign of a weakness in faith or lack of faith. And we preach in a way to keep them in faith.

Either way we are trying to save them.

Except your answer to even the strongest Christian that may fall away in his later walk in life, is that they must not of been saved from the start.

We see that christian as one who once truly believed but lost faith along the way.

Which one sounds more reasonable. I know which one to me. Especially since i have seen people in faith then lose faith.

 

[mailmandan]

Which one sounds more reasonable. I know which one to me. Especially since i have seen people in faith then lose faith.

Can you infallibly say those people were truly in faith then lost faith?

 

[MattforJesus]

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We can debate,but have they been chosen,and are we debating with people that have not been chosen,and will defend their interpretation that is according to the flesh,so they will not listen anyway,unless you throw out a treat of fleshy interpretation,for there are many who claim Jesus,but not all who do are saved.

Are they saved,were they chosen.

How can someone say we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with Christ,for if that is their belief,then they will hold unto sin,for the flesh will take advantage of that,and they want sin,so how are they saved if they are part of the people that are workers of iniquity.

It is strange that Jesus said they could not dwell with Him,because they were workers of iniquity,and they say we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with Christ,so they will hold unto sin,and then think that they are not part of those that are workers of iniquity,all while sinning.

What.

If they did not want sin in their life they would be able to see the truth of the Bible,for they would be able to accept that it says abstain from sin,but because they want sin in their life,they cannot see it.

These type of people do not sin,and then honestly give it up,but they hold unto it,and might not do it for a while,to show God that they are really trying to beat it,but they know they are going to do it again,and do they think they are fooling God,but they are fooling themselves.

They will hold unto sin,for why would they not,seeing they believe they cannot abstain from sin,and it does not affect their relationship with Christ,so it is obvious they will hold unto sin,or they would not believe those things.

Anybody that truly hates sin,and does not want to do it,can see the truth of the Bible,but people that believe that we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with God,will not be able to see it.

But they will not get it because they want sin,so that is how they see the Bible,for if they did not want sin,they could see the truth.

So the debate is those who do not want sin,and those who want sin,and they will debate from both positions,and see the scriptures that way.

Which God hates sin,and says sin separates us from Him,and those who name the name of Christ has to depart from iniquity,and a Spirit led life can abstain from sin,and if a person does not endure temptation,and sins,it lead to death,do not be deceived,unless they give it up,and not all who say Lord will be able to dwell with Him because they were workers of iniquity,and if a person holds unto sin the blood of Christ cannot wash it away,and if they do not help the poor,if they can,and go by their wants,instead of only their needs,and the needs of other if possible,they erred from the faith,do not have faith,the love of God does not dwell in them,and if they love the world,or the things in the world,they are not of the Father.

Come on,what do you think is the better position,it is those who say abstain from sin,for how does the other position even have a leg to stand on,but they will keep defending something that has no substance,or reality.

The people that believe we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with God,has no leg to stand on,a belief without substance,or reality,and they will still defend it,and support it.

What.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Can you infallibly say those people were truly in faith then lost faith?

They could of appeared outward for a long time to have faith. And i bet you could even ask them did they truly believe at one time and they would say yes.

This very thing happened to Billy Grahams close companion and preaching colleague Charles Templeton.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We can debate,but have they been chosen,and are we debating with people that have not been chosen,and will defend their interpretation that is according to the flesh,so they will not listen anyway,unless you throw out a treat of fleshy interpretation,for there are many who claim Jesus,but not all who do are saved.

Are they saved,were they chosen.

How can someone say we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with Christ,for if that is their belief,then they will hold unto sin,for the flesh will take advantage of that,and they want sin,so how are they saved if they are part of the people that are workers of iniquity.

It is strange that Jesus said they could not dwell with Him,because they were workers of iniquity,and they say we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with Christ,so they will hold unto sin,and then think that they are not part of those that are workers of iniquity,all while sinning.

What.

If they did not want sin in their life they would be able to see the truth of the Bible,for they would be able to accept that it says abstain from sin,but because they want sin in their life,they cannot see it.

These type of people do not sin,and then honestly give it up,but they hold unto it,and might not do it for a while,to show God that they are really trying to beat it,but they know they are going to do it again,and do they think they are fooling God,but they are fooling themselves.

They will hold unto sin,for why would they not,seeing they believe they cannot abstain from sin,and it does not affect their relationship with Christ,so it is obvious they will hold unto sin,or they would not believe those things.

Anybody that truly hates sin,and does not want to do it,can see the truth of the Bible,but people that believe that we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with God,will not be able to see it.

But they will not get it because they want sin,so that is how they see the Bible,for if they did not want sin,they could see the truth.

So the debate is those who do not want sin,and those who want sin,and they will debate from both positions,and see the scriptures that way.

Which God hates sin,and says sin separates us from Him,and those who name the name of Christ has to depart from iniquity,and a Spirit led life can abstain from sin,and if a person does not endure temptation,and sins,it lead to death,do not be deceived,unless they give it up,and not all who say Lord will be able to dwell with Him because they were workers of iniquity,and if a person holds unto sin the blood of Christ cannot wash it away,and if they do not help the poor,if they can,and go by their wants,instead of only their needs,and the needs of other if possible,they erred from the faith,do not have faith,the love of God does not dwell in them,and if they love the world,or the things in the world,they are not of the Father.

Come on,what do you think is the better position,it is those who say abstain from sin,for how does the other position even have a leg to stand on,but they will keep defending something that has no substance,or reality.

The people that believe we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with God,has no leg to stand on,a belief without substance,or reality,and they will still defend it,and support it.

What.

The study is rather apostasy is a warning to a believer or not.

 

[Grace777x70]

Concerning Charles Templeton who worked with Billy Graham who had supposed renounced his faith. This was a meeting that a minister had with him when he was older - just before he died.

I firmly believe we can be damaged in our minds from situations and yet still have our hearts intact in Christ. It is with the heart that man believes. God looks on the heart.

Sometimes we can get sick in our thinking and get offended at others and say things that are not true in our hearts..

Below is a man that knows within his heart Christ - so to use Templeton as "proof" that one goes to hell because of what they think and supposedly turn from the faith is not wise. He might have just "turned from the "God" that others were projecting to him".

Quote:

“Well, yes, Jesus is the most important thing in my life,” came his reply. “I . . . I . . . I . . . ,” he stuttered, searching for the right word, ‘I know it may sound strange, but I have to say . . . I adore him!” . . .

” . . . Everything good I know, everything decent I know, everything pure I know, I learned from Jesus. Yes . . . yes. And tough! Just look at Jesus. He castigated people. He was angry. People don’t think of him that way, but they don’t read the Bible. He had a righteous anger. He cared for the oppressed and exploited. There’s no question that he had the highest moral standard, the least duplicity, the greatest compassion, of any human being in history. There have been many other wonderful people, but Jesus is Jesus….’

“Uh . . . but . . . no,’ he said slowly, ‘he’s the most . . .” He stopped, then started again. “In my view,” he declared, “he is the most important human being who has ever existed.”

That’s when Templeton uttered the words I never expected to hear from him. “And if I may put it this way,” he said as his voice began to crack, ‘I . . . miss . . . him!”

With that tears flooded his eyes. He turned his head and looked downward, raising his left hand to shield his face from me. His shoulders bobbed as he wept. . . .

Unquote:

.....this is not a man that does not believe in Christ. This is a man that had his mind screwed up for some reason. True belief is of the heart of man. The spirit of man is where Christ dwells - not in his head.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will in us forever. John 14:16. We can either believe Jesus Himself or say what He is saying is not true which makes Him lying to us. Everyone has that choice to chose to believe what they want.

Here is the link.

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org...missing-jesus/

 

[Roughsoul1991]

They could of appeared outward for a long time to have faith. And i bet you could even ask them did they truly believe at one time and they would say yes.

This very thing happened to Billy Grahams close companion and preaching colleague Charles Templeton.

As many of you know, Billy Graham and Charles Templeton were evangelists who rose to fame in the 40s (Graham, of course, is still an evangelist). Early in their careers they were friends – close friends. Many have said Templeton was the one that everyone thought was going to overturn the world with the Gospel. In 1957, after a long struggle with doubt, Templeton declared himself an agnostic. His public pronouncement of his loss of faith caused a backlash from the evangelical community. Eventually becoming an atheist. In 1982, though still an atheist, he said of Billy Graham, “There is no feigning in him: he believes what he believes with an invincible innocence. He is the only mass evangelist I would trust” (Anecdotal Memoir). Templeton died in 2001 at the age of 86, shortly after he wrote what I consider to be one of the most heart-breaking books ever published: Farewell to God.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

In a interview with Graham he said at the time he struggled with the same dounts as Templeton. Until one day Graham was walking in the woods and came to this conclusion in his mind that he may not know why kids suffer, world hunger, etc but he chose to have faith anyways.

Where Templeton chose to not trust God and abandoned his faith.

Graham chose to persevere while Templeton chose to walk away.

It happens everyday in the heart, this one just happened to be a popular evangelist.

My preacher has known pastors to preach for most of thier life but near the end of their life they had said they no longer had believed in God for years because of doubts and heart breaking situations. But because they had no other degree and was too old to find a new job, they pretended just to make it to retirement.

I have people in my life who were close to God but now due to some nasty life issues one blames God and doesnt see how God can be good to allow children to get cancer or why God condemns gays when in his mind many are born that way.

And one that went to war and came back and now he doesn't even know what to think about God.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

If I'm so blind to scripture, then show me where Paul said they "lost their salvation." "I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind" doesn't sound like a loss of salvation to me. Again, the present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law as a result of getting side tracked by false teachers, but obviously, they had not fully come to that place yet, hence verse 10. You can say it's "possible" to "lose salvation" all day long, but where did Paul specifically say it happened?

Confident in them, in the Lord, that they will have no other mind is the opposite of confidence in them losing their salvation.

As in Galatians 5:4, the present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law, but had not fully come to that place yet and once again, in Galatians 3:3, the middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. In both cases, it's not a done deal.

The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. In both cases, it's not a done deal.

I never said it was a done deal hence the warnings. The bible wouldn't warn us of things that cant happen. Our God is a logical God. A logical creator. This is why God can not make a circle square. He is all intelligent and so God wouldn't of inspired Paul to write these warnings to believers if the warnings couldn't actually happen to a believer. That would be calling God illogical, which is against the very nature of God.

I put my trust in Gods intelligence over mans.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Concerning Charles Templeton who worked with Billy Graham who had supposed renounced his faith. This was a meeting that a minister had with him when he was older - just before he died.

I firmly believe we can be damaged in our minds from situations and yet still have our hearts intact in Christ. It is with the heart that man believes. God looks on the heart.

Sometimes we can get sick in our thinking and get offended at others and say things that are not true in our hearts..

Below is a man that knows within his heart Christ - so to use Templeton as "proof" that one goes to hell because of what they think and supposedly turn from the faith is not wise.He might have just "turned from the "God" that others were projecting to him".

Quote:

“Well, yes, Jesus is the most important thing in my life,” came his reply. “I . . . I . . . I . . . ,” he stuttered, searching for the right word, ‘I know it may sound strange, but I have to say . . . I adore him!” . . .

” . . . Everything good I know, everything decent I know, everything pure I know, I learned from Jesus. Yes . . . yes. And tough! Just look at Jesus. He castigated people. He was angry. People don’t think of him that way, but they don’t read the Bible. He had a righteous anger. He cared for the oppressed and exploited. There’s no question that he had the highest moral standard, the least duplicity, the greatest compassion, of any human being in history. There have been many other wonderful people, but Jesus is Jesus….’

“Uh . . . but . . . no,’ he said slowly, ‘he’s the most . . .” He stopped, then started again. “In my view,” he declared, “he is the most important human being who has ever existed.”

That’s when Templeton uttered the words I never expected to hear from him. “And if I may put it this way,” he said as his voice began to crack, ‘I . . . miss . . . him!”

With that tears flooded his eyes. He turned his head and looked downward, raising his left hand to shield his face from me. His shoulders bobbed as he wept. . . .

Unquote:

.....this is not a man that does not believe in Christ. This is a man that had his mind screwed up for some reason. True belief is of the heart of man. The spirit of man is where Christ dwells - not in his head.

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will in us forever. John 14:16. We can either believe Jesus Himself or say what He is saying is not true which makes Him lying to us. Everyone has that choice to chose to believe what they want.

Here is the link.

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org...missing-jesus/

.....this is not a man that does not believe in Christ. This is a man that had his mind screwed up for some reason. True belief is of the heart of man. The spirit of man is where Christ dwells - not in his head.

This was a man who gave up on Christ and fully knew Christ. There was more to this interview in the book called the case for faith. What you got from reading this was this man loved the idea of the Christian Jesus and wished for that Jesus to be real as in scripture. He missed the idea of this man being what he had once loved but saw him now more as just a wise teacher and not God. Then when he began to have doubts, he relied on his logical thoughts to push him into disbelief.

The whole reason the interview took place was because Templeton had written a book called farewell to God. And Strobel wanted to see what made this man lose faith and why.

But yes your right God judges the hearts of men. And I can not say if this man was saved or not. I am only told what the consequences of apostasy are in scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

They could of appeared outward for a long time to have faith. And i bet you could even ask them did they truly believe at one time and they would say yes.

This very thing happened to Billy Grahams close companion and preaching colleague Charles Templeton.

I've had conversations with people who claimed to once be Christians (on Christian forums and in person) but no longer are (some have even professed to now be atheists) yet when I asked them exactly how they became a Christian or what exactly did they previously believe in order to become saved but no longer believe, they could NEVER give me a satisfactory answer. I've heard the Charles Templeton argument numerous times from eternal IN-securists. Again, we do not infallibly know the hearts of others and the Bible never once says, "lost salvation."

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I've had conversations with people who claimed to once be Christians (on Christian forums and in person) but no longer are (some have even professed to now be atheists) yet when I asked them exactly how they became a Christian or what exactly did they previously believe in order to become saved but no longer believe, they could NEVER give me a satisfactory answer. I've heard the Charles Templeton argument numerous times from eternal IN-securists. Again, we do not infallibly know the hearts of others and the Bible never once says, "lost salvation."

Apostasy is your word for denial of grace. We have warnings of this and in which sense we dont know the heart it would only be wise to heed to these warnings and do our best to keep people in faith and bring ones back that have grown weak in faith. This way no matter what we are doing our best to keep people from apostasy just as the warnings. Never quitting because we dont judge the heart. We are told its possible so thats all the proof i need from my logical God.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The only scripture we have thats truly clear about losing salvation and thats blasphemy against the Spirit.

The other is Hebrews 6:4 either in sense that if the person stays in rebellion then of course its impossible.

Or once getting to this point then its impossible spiritually.

Scholars cant agree if this verse is speaking from impossible to human effort to bring back someone in rebellion or God because the child denies his grace.