TRIBULATION LIE
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I suppose you believe that the only people who will be raptured will be those who believe in 'pre-trib' rapture...?
YES
Having said that,,there are many that seconds after the Rapture happens will find God by Faith alone. These people will become the Martyred Saints we see in Rev. 6: 9. These will be in the millions. Millions more that might have changed will not get the chance as all the wars, etc and then following the 5th seal , the 6th seal will kill many more.
Let me put it this way... When the 6th seal is broken and the Islands and Mountains are moved, the Electricity of this world might be not work. It this happens it has been said by liberals of course, that roughly 70% of those in a large city will die during the first 45 days. New York has 16,000 million (estimate). That is a lot of people.
Katy-follower....Eschatology has everything to do with salvation. Your eschatology can lead you down the wrong road to Salvation. (i.e Olsteen, Warren, others, etc.). You do not have to believe in the rapture to be saved but you better believe in Jesus by FAITH ALONE. If you believe your works will get you there,,, forget it.
As far as a partial rapture,, there is NO scriptural passages that suggest this will happen. When the Church is fulfilled (when the 'Last Person to Accept Jesus' as their lord and Savior on Faith Alone), those that truly believe by in Jesus and He will KNOW, will be removed from this earth prior to God's Wrath which will start immediately after these People are gone.
So if you cull out the OT and His Prophecy, Nullify Revelation, do not believe in the 'END TIMES EVENTs' as told by God himself and cling only to a shewed version of the NT (preterism), then I would indeed say that you will probably be left behind.
It is estimated that only 4-50% of the American population will be Raptured (360 mil * 50%=150mil), 20% in Britian and other places around the world. There may be more in (China and Iran combined) raptured than in the USA.
Revelation tells of Multitudes, Nations, etc will come to GOD but only in spirit form where they have died. There will be a remanent of Gentiles and Jewish people who actually live through Daniels 70th week or Jacob's Troubles. These people will populate the earth during the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ.
Now if you believe in a Mid trib, you do not, CAN NOT believe in the Imminency of the RAPTURE. Rem, to get to one half of Daniel's 70th week, Many things have to happen (i.e. God;s Wrath, the revealing of the anti-christ, etc.).
If you believe in the Post-Trib, then there will be no 1000 year reign by Jesus Christ because all the unbelievers have been killed and everyone else is raptured. There is no one left to populated the earth.
OK,,,, Rev. is only symbolic,,,,,, In my humble opinion, The entire Bible (including Revelation) is divinely written by God and inspired writers. These 40 authors have put together a Book (OT,NT) over 3000 years period, yet one can follow the story of Mankind from the Beginning to the End of Times and know the past, present and our future. If you want to Shew any part of it to fit you lifestyle then in my opinion, you are not following His word but you words.[/COLOR]
LOL you are a bloodthirsty creature, revelling in wars. Be careful that you are not seen as a murderer.
The martyred saints we see in 6.9 have mainly ALREADY been martyred and are now reigning with Christ. See chapter 7. The sixth seal IS the second coming of Christ. So you will have to settle your bloodlust somewhere else
When the sixth seal is broken and the mountains are removed it issues in the second coming of Christ,
. The world will face its judgment. But I won't be gloating.
Salvation by grace alone, through faith. Something we can agree on.
.
well that is true because immediately after the rapture will be the final judgement.
LOL you mean as you interpret them? There is little difference between long term events and end time events, as the one glide into the other. But in that case there isn't enough blood and gore for you. As for preterism I know some godly folk who are preterists. I really don't think Jesus will distinguish between godly preterists, godly part preterists, godly post millennialists and even godly millennialist when He calls us up
.
LOL nowhere near that amount. Whose estimate?
d.
yep they live and reign with Christ NOW
Nonsense. Once Christ comes that's it, the eternal kingdom,
Daniel's seventieth week is long past.
sounds more like it
largely symbolic.
True but heavily misrepresented, especially by millenniallists..
True, but oh how godly people differ.
The WHOLE fits my lifestyle
That is why it is a word from God,
LOL you are a bloodthirsty creature, revelling in wars. Be careful that you are not seen as a murderer.
The martyred saints we see in 6.9 have mainly ALREADY been martyred and are now reigning with Christ. See chapter 7. The sixth seal IS the second coming of Christ. So you will have to settle your bloodlust somewhere else
NO,, They if you read Rev. 6:9 are under the Altar asking how long they must wait until their injustice is revenged. The answer,,,,You will have to wait a little while others like you will come. Notice this in contrast to those of the nations and multitudes in rev 9 come to Heaven. They too have died but they are singing a new song because they know they only have about 3.5 years left. The first group in Rev 6:9 did not know therefore the Tribulations had not started YET! or they would have know how long,,(7 years)
When the sixth seal is broken and the mountains are removed it issues in the second coming of Christ,
The mountains in Rev 6:15 are moved not removed as in a later verse. This is the beginning of Daniel's 70th week and the 2nd coming of Christ will begin in almost exactly 7 years.
The world will face its judgment. But I won't be gloating.
The martyred saints we see in 6.9 have mainly ALREADY been martyred and are now reigning with Christ. See chapter 7. The sixth seal IS the second coming of Christ. So you will have to settle your bloodlust somewhere else
NO,, They if you read Rev. 6:9 are under the Altar asking how long they must wait until their injustice is revenged. The answer,,,,You will have to wait a little while others like you will come. Notice this in contrast to those of the nations and multitudes in rev 9 come to Heaven. They too have died but they are singing a new song because they know they only have about 3.5 years left. The first group in Rev 6:9 did not know therefore the Tribulations had not started YET! or they would have know how long,,(7 years)
When the sixth seal is broken and the mountains are removed it issues in the second coming of Christ,
The mountains in Rev 6:15 are moved not removed as in a later verse. This is the beginning of Daniel's 70th week and the 2nd coming of Christ will begin in almost exactly 7 years.
The world will face its judgment. But I won't be gloating.
Ah judgement,,,,, will come after the 1000 years. Since you do not believe in the Rapture, I hope you live long enough after the Rapture happens in order to get right with God.
[QOUTE] Originally Posted by valiant
LOL you mean as you interpret them? There is little difference between long term events and end time events, as the one glide into the other. But in that case there isn't enough blood and gore for you. As for preterism I know some godly folk who are preterists. I really don't think Jesus will distinguish between godly preterists, godly part preterists, godly post millennialists and even godly millennialist when He calls us up [/QOUTE]
In that case I guess, we can agree to disagree. If I were you, I would be doing some powerful thinking right about now.. The rapture is Imminent which means it can happens during the next twinkle of the eye or in the Morning. We don't know. I and many others are watching and you and others are not.......According to the parable of the ten virgins...who is going to be left behind.
LOL you mean as you interpret them? There is little difference between long term events and end time events, as the one glide into the other. But in that case there isn't enough blood and gore for you. As for preterism I know some godly folk who are preterists. I really don't think Jesus will distinguish between godly preterists, godly part preterists, godly post millennialists and even godly millennialist when He calls us up [/QOUTE]
In that case I guess, we can agree to disagree. If I were you, I would be doing some powerful thinking right about now.. The rapture is Imminent which means it can happens during the next twinkle of the eye or in the Morning. We don't know. I and many others are watching and you and others are not.......According to the parable of the ten virgins...who is going to be left behind.
G
I see a HUGE contradiction here...
What about the people who have "found God by faith alone" - who have "given their heart and life to Christ" - who are "true born-again Christians" -- but, do not believe there will be a 'pre-trib' rapture? ( Those are the people I am talking about. )
Think about these people in a context that is a few seconds before the rapture... Now - in a few seconds, what will happen?
Will they be raptured because Jesus knows that they are His...?
Or, will Jesus say:
I came to get those who are mine -- but, because - even though you believed in the Father - and in Me - and, in My Second Coming also - and, were looking for it -- well, because you did not understand "God's timing" quite well enough - you get to stay here and "go through hell" -- even though you are part of the 'Bride' that I came to "receive unto me"...
"Sorry --- I am not buying whatever it is that you are trying to sell..."
What about the people who have "found God by faith alone" - who have "given their heart and life to Christ" - who are "true born-again Christians" -- but, do not believe there will be a 'pre-trib' rapture? ( Those are the people I am talking about. )
Think about these people in a context that is a few seconds before the rapture... Now - in a few seconds, what will happen?
Will they be raptured because Jesus knows that they are His...?
Or, will Jesus say:
I came to get those who are mine -- but, because - even though you believed in the Father - and in Me - and, in My Second Coming also - and, were looking for it -- well, because you did not understand "God's timing" quite well enough - you get to stay here and "go through hell" -- even though you are part of the 'Bride' that I came to "receive unto me"...
"Sorry --- I am not buying whatever it is that you are trying to sell..."
G
I forgot to mention -- I would think that an earthquake powerful enough to level every mountain and sink every island would also level [ pretty much ] every city on Earth...
"I would think that an earthquake powerful enough to move every mountain and every island out of its place would also level [ pretty much ] every city on Earth..."
LOL you are a bloodthirsty creature, revelling in wars. Be careful that you are not seen as a murderer.
The martyred saints we see in 6.9 have mainly ALREADY been martyred and are now reigning with Christ. See chapter 7. The sixth seal IS the second coming of Christ. So you will have to settle your bloodlust somewhere else
When the sixth seal is broken and the mountains are removed it issues in the second coming of Christ,
.
The world will face its judgment. But I won't be gloating.
The martyred saints we see in 6.9 have mainly ALREADY been martyred and are now reigning with Christ. See chapter 7. The sixth seal IS the second coming of Christ. So you will have to settle your bloodlust somewhere else
When the sixth seal is broken and the mountains are removed it issues in the second coming of Christ,
.
The world will face its judgment. But I won't be gloating.
Snd why does the SPIRIT say "their works will proceed them?"
what does that mean ?
The pre-trib rapture actually originated in 1830 in Scotland, by a delirious, ill girl named Margaret MacDonald, and Darby and another preacher were in contact this girl, and they ran with it.
There is a famine in these end times:
"Behold the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:" Amos 8:11 (KJV Companion Bible)
Jer. 2:28;11:10-14 God says "Where are your gods you made for yourselves? let them save you if they are able"
2 Thess. 2:8-12 If people want to believe a lie, God will send it to them.(vs. 11)
"Have ye not seen a vain vision, and ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, 'The Lord saith it;' albeit I have not spoken?" Ez. 13:7
"Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, (coverings which conceal) wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly." Ez. 13:20
God hates the Rapture Doctrine, and speaks against it.
There is an apostasy:
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, vs. 4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Thess. 2:3-4
There is only one "son of perdition", and that is Satan:
13 "Thou has been in Eden the garden of God;....14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth".....15 "Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee".....16...."therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.".....17 "Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty...."I will cast thee to the ground".....18 "therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."....19 "All they that know thee shall be astonished at thee".....and never shalt thou be anymore." Ez. 28:13-19 (in portions)
Satan has already been tried, judged, condemned and sentenced to die the 2nd death. Satan is a dead man walking. But,
he's just arrogant enough that he thinks he can still win against God.
Daniel 11:21-24 Speaks of the appearance of Satan as Anti-Christ when he makes his appearance here on the earth, after he's kicked out of heaven by Michael the Archangel (Rev. 12:7-9) He arrives here "transformed" (disguised) peaceably, and with flatteries, claiming to be God, claiming to be Jesus Christ at the 6th Seal, the 6th Trumpet, the 6th Vial, before, before Jesus returns at the 2nd Advent, which is at the 7th Seal, the 7th Trumpet, the 7th Vial. (Rev 13:2-11 the one-world government, and the false religious system Satan (the dragon) sets up)
The world follows after Satan (Lucifer, Anti-Christ, the dragon), thinking that he is Jesus Christ returned to save them.
Rev. 13:8 states who it is that will worship Satan.
Rev. 14:9 states what happens to those who don't bother to educate themselves in the word of God, and are ignorant of these things, and also those who are atheist, and those who hate God, and Jesus Christ.
I've probably overloaded my lip with too much info, but this is what I've learned from God's true word. Good night
There is a famine in these end times:
"Behold the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:" Amos 8:11 (KJV Companion Bible)
Jer. 2:28;11:10-14 God says "Where are your gods you made for yourselves? let them save you if they are able"
2 Thess. 2:8-12 If people want to believe a lie, God will send it to them.(vs. 11)
"Have ye not seen a vain vision, and ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, 'The Lord saith it;' albeit I have not spoken?" Ez. 13:7
"Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, (coverings which conceal) wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly." Ez. 13:20
God hates the Rapture Doctrine, and speaks against it.
There is an apostasy:
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, vs. 4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Thess. 2:3-4
There is only one "son of perdition", and that is Satan:
13 "Thou has been in Eden the garden of God;....14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth".....15 "Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee".....16...."therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.".....17 "Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty...."I will cast thee to the ground".....18 "therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."....19 "All they that know thee shall be astonished at thee".....and never shalt thou be anymore." Ez. 28:13-19 (in portions)
Satan has already been tried, judged, condemned and sentenced to die the 2nd death. Satan is a dead man walking. But,
he's just arrogant enough that he thinks he can still win against God.
Daniel 11:21-24 Speaks of the appearance of Satan as Anti-Christ when he makes his appearance here on the earth, after he's kicked out of heaven by Michael the Archangel (Rev. 12:7-9) He arrives here "transformed" (disguised) peaceably, and with flatteries, claiming to be God, claiming to be Jesus Christ at the 6th Seal, the 6th Trumpet, the 6th Vial, before, before Jesus returns at the 2nd Advent, which is at the 7th Seal, the 7th Trumpet, the 7th Vial. (Rev 13:2-11 the one-world government, and the false religious system Satan (the dragon) sets up)
The world follows after Satan (Lucifer, Anti-Christ, the dragon), thinking that he is Jesus Christ returned to save them.
Rev. 13:8 states who it is that will worship Satan.
Rev. 14:9 states what happens to those who don't bother to educate themselves in the word of God, and are ignorant of these things, and also those who are atheist, and those who hate God, and Jesus Christ.
I've probably overloaded my lip with too much info, but this is what I've learned from God's true word. Good night
Truly Truly I say unto you when you were young you girded yourself
and walked where you would but when you are old you will stretch out your hands
and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish to go. This he said to show
by what death he was to Glorify god. And after this he said to him follow me.
John 21:18 - 19
If the rapture is imminent when during the last 2000 plus years did Christ decide to make it so ? Peter couldn't possibly have believed it because Christ told him that he would get old and die. He also told the Disciples to go and into all the world and preach the Gospel. What incentive would they have had if they thought that Christ was going to return at any moment?
and walked where you would but when you are old you will stretch out your hands
and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish to go. This he said to show
by what death he was to Glorify god. And after this he said to him follow me.
John 21:18 - 19
If the rapture is imminent when during the last 2000 plus years did Christ decide to make it so ? Peter couldn't possibly have believed it because Christ told him that he would get old and die. He also told the Disciples to go and into all the world and preach the Gospel. What incentive would they have had if they thought that Christ was going to return at any moment?
How exactly do these people receive glorified bodies? There are two major resurrections in Revelation. One is what is the
resurrection and rapture of the righteous and the other is at the great White throne judgement. In order for all these multitudes of people killed during the tribulation to receive glorified bodies there would need to be another resurrection after the pre trib Rapture but before the second coming, but there is no mention of it.
resurrection and rapture of the righteous and the other is at the great White throne judgement. In order for all these multitudes of people killed during the tribulation to receive glorified bodies there would need to be another resurrection after the pre trib Rapture but before the second coming, but there is no mention of it.
Hello tanakh,
There is the resurrection of the church which takes place prior to God's wrath, which includes the living believers being transformed and caught up, as found in 1 Thes.4:13-17 and 1 Cor.15:51-53
Then you have a resurrection of the great tribulation saints as described in Rev.20:4-6
Both of the above belong to the first resurrection.
The resurrection at the end of the millennial period is specifically a resurrection of the unrighteous dead.
When the Lord descends from heaven the dead in Christ will rise first and their bodies will be reanimated by the power of God into those heavenly bodies, with heavenly characteristics. This body that was sown which decays, will be raised a body that doesn't decay. This body that was sown in dishonor (sinful nature) will be raised a glorified body. This body that was sown in weakness, will be raised in power.
After Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire, alive, Satan is cast into the Abyss and the great tribulation saints are resurrected "They came to life and rained with Christ a thousand years."
But basically to answer your question, with each stage of the first resurrection, it will be by the power of God they will receive their glorified bodies
The resurrection of the church
The seven years of God's wrath
The Lord returns to the earth to end the age
The resurrection of the great tribulation saints
Millennial period
There is the resurrection of the church which takes place prior to God's wrath, which includes the living believers being transformed and caught up, as found in 1 Thes.4:13-17 and 1 Cor.15:51-53
Then you have a resurrection of the great tribulation saints as described in Rev.20:4-6
Both of the above belong to the first resurrection.
The resurrection at the end of the millennial period is specifically a resurrection of the unrighteous dead.
When the Lord descends from heaven the dead in Christ will rise first and their bodies will be reanimated by the power of God into those heavenly bodies, with heavenly characteristics. This body that was sown which decays, will be raised a body that doesn't decay. This body that was sown in dishonor (sinful nature) will be raised a glorified body. This body that was sown in weakness, will be raised in power.
After Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire, alive, Satan is cast into the Abyss and the great tribulation saints are resurrected "They came to life and rained with Christ a thousand years."
But basically to answer your question, with each stage of the first resurrection, it will be by the power of God they will receive their glorified bodies
The resurrection of the church
The seven years of God's wrath
The Lord returns to the earth to end the age
The resurrection of the great tribulation saints
Millennial period
My post/reply was based on the Pre Tribulation belief not the Pre Wrath one. I pointed out that in order for people to be
raptured during the tribulation there would need to be an additional rapture because according to Pre tribbers the church
is raptured before the tribulation starts.
As far as Im concerned there is one resurrection and rapture that takes place at the seventh trumpet.
And the Angel whom I saw standing on sea and land lifted up his right hand
to heaven and swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created heaven
and whats in it, the earth and whats in it, and the sea and whats in it that there
should be no more delay but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded
by the seventh Angel, the mystery of God as he announced to his servants the
Prophets should be fulfilled.
Rev 10:5-7
Lo I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment
in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead
will be raised imperishable and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 14:51-52
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the Archangels call
and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will
rise first then we who are alive who are left shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air and so we shall always
be with the Lord.
1 Thess 5: 16-17
to meet
the Lord in the air and so shall
Then the seventh Angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying
The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ and he shall
reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:15
raptured during the tribulation there would need to be an additional rapture because according to Pre tribbers the church
is raptured before the tribulation starts.
As far as Im concerned there is one resurrection and rapture that takes place at the seventh trumpet.
And the Angel whom I saw standing on sea and land lifted up his right hand
to heaven and swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created heaven
and whats in it, the earth and whats in it, and the sea and whats in it that there
should be no more delay but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded
by the seventh Angel, the mystery of God as he announced to his servants the
Prophets should be fulfilled.
Rev 10:5-7
Lo I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment
in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead
will be raised imperishable and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 14:51-52
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the Archangels call
and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will
rise first then we who are alive who are left shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air and so we shall always
be with the Lord.
1 Thess 5: 16-17
to meet
the Lord in the air and so shall
Then the seventh Angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying
The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ and he shall
reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:15
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Morning Tanakh,
So, what reasons would you have for assigning the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments as being the "last trumpet" referred to in 1 Cor.15:52? It is important to understand that the trumpets, along with the seals and bowl, are judgments of wrath. In addition, there is nothing in the context in or around the 7th trumpet that infers that the gathering of the church is taking place.
Also, by placing the resurrection of the church as taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the church through the entire wrath of God and you know what the scriptures say concerning the church not being appointed to suffer God's wrath. The main problem as to why people come to this conclusion, is because the don't understand that there are phases/stages to the first resurrection. They read the word "first" and their brain interprets it as meaning "only."
The following is linked to what the angel was referring to at the sounding of the 7th trumpet prior to Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven:
"The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” (Rev.11:15)
And below is similar being spoken after Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. (Rev.12:10)
These announcements have nothing to do with the gathering of the church, but what is taking place is that, originally God gave the earth and everything in it to mankind to rule over. When they disobeyed God by believing Satan instead of what God had told them regarding the eating of the fruit, the kingdom of the earth defaulted to Satan, as can be seen from the below scripture:
"The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
All that said, what is happening in Revelation 10,11 & 12 is that the ownership of the earth is reverting back from Satan to God and mankind. It is the process of the emancipation of the earth.
Regarding the above, the word "mystery" is not specific or unique to those particular events. You're making the same mistake with the word "mystery" as you are with the word "trumpet." You are simply misapplying the scriptures because of these two words. To put it plainly, the word "mystery" is used to refer to different things within scripture and there are different types of trumpets within scripture. You can't pigeonhole these two words to referring to the event of the gathering of the church.
I once thought the pre-trib rapture was true, kind of, I was an honest young man and studied the bible daily and I knew that I had never found any evidence of a pre-trib rapture in the bible. Even as a young man I could see right through the pre-trib evidence that it was fabricated by those with an agenda and not really scriptural. If you are honest it is pretty easy to see that "come up here" in Rev 4:1 was not the rapture of the church. Also that the word church not being mentioned past Rev 4 meant nothing at all since the church was described after Rev 4. The big no brainer for me was folks claiming that when Jesus described the rapture of the church that He gave the church, that He was not describing the rapture of the church...enough nonsense.