Lets Talk Free Choice

[Depleted]

(video removed for sheer stupidity)
Ravi Zacharias Is Roman Catholicism a cult?


Perhaps you many understand clearly now magenta


It is sufficiently clear to me that Ravi is an ecumenist, after the mold of Billy Graham, as he dare not speak the plain truth when it comes to the roman catholic church.Even when he says people stay in a group (for e.g. the roman catholics) to change it from within, which may be so, he is afraid to point out the fact that such an arrangement is unbiblical.

The bible clearly says that after the second admonition, the heretic is to be rejected. The bible further reveals in the Book of Revelation that God Himself personally wants all His people to come out of the spiritual harlot which is the roman catholic church. In addition the bible clearly teaches that the believer has no part with an infidel ( and as such also a heretic) and is to be separated from them.Please don't tell me that Ravi, being a well known international apologist for the gospel, may not know these verses.

If it is so, he has no business being a preacher and apologist for the gospel as he is misleading others to think they can do whatever they like (such as staying in the roman catholic church to change it from within) when the bible teaches otherwise.And if he knows these verses and this very specific teaching of the bible to the believer to have no part with the infidel and the heretic, and he doesn't want to share this teaching, then he has absolutely no business being a preacher of God's word

There is no political correctness in the word of God, only divine truth, and if Ravi thinks he has to be politically correct like Billy Graham, then he is in the wrong business. Jesus and His Apostles spoke God's truth as it is and so did the Old Testament prophets of God at risk of losing their own lives.

If a supposed preacher of God's word (such as Ravi Zacharias, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham and others) is afraid to tell the heretics (e.g. the roman catholics) that they are heretics traveling on the broad road to eternal damnation, how can they be saved? Their blood is surely on the hands of such false preachers.

Shalom

Did you know there is a cult that has women putting mails in their heads? I know this for a fact, the same way you know your "facts." I found a video on YouTube.
[video=youtube;-4EDhdAHrOg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg[/video]

 

[Depleted]

Naw i sure dont, i stick with what God says of things, cant go wrong and it doesnt need reformation, its already perfect

Which is about how the Dark Ages started.

 

[kaylagrl]

I agree with you that there are verses in the Bible that talk about choice. I disagree with you that there are verses in the Bible that talk about free will.

And as for "Why would God say such things if the choice of election had already been made?" Hasn't he already told us how he chooses to bring about his eternal kingdom? Is that somehow unfair because we already know how this ends?

Did God not determine Trump would be President before he became President? Did he not choose Obama before he became President? Did that end our election?

Did God not choose Abraham to be the Father of a nation God chose? Did God not know that meant his people would spend 400 years at the whim of Egyptians? Did that not mean God knew his nation would have to wipe out nations already living in that land? And although he decreed those people had to wipe out those nations, did God not know those people would not do what God told them to do?

God's not strolling along to see what Man will do and then pick up the pieces. He preordained what would happen because he is sovereign. Even the Pharaoh was beginning to give in, but God would not have that because it went against what God would do. The Pharaoh had free will and willed evil. God trapped him in that will for God's divine purposes.

And if you think that's not how God works it today, it's time to reread Romans 1, because he's still doing that. Man chooses evil. That is our default mode. Sometimes God has mercy on us anyway. Sometimes people are sealed into that evil even further than they ever planned. He hardens some. This is what he does with free will.

It includes election. He's the one at the voting booth, not us. He's the only voter who gets his way each and every time. Just because everyone thinks they're the winners of the election doesn't mean God concurs with that decision. Hilary thought she won. God elected a different strategy. (And we do not know if that was for the good of America or the bad of America yet.)

This is infinitely fair because God reigns sovereignly!!!

So this begs the question,did God determine Hitler would come to power? As in,was that Gods will?

 

[imfinallyfree]

I don't know what"Calvinism" is nor am I inclined to find out,it's probably just another gang supposedly doing God's work.

I guess that you guys are talking about free will?I think that God gave it to us not just as a test but also as a tool,a means to better ourselves.

Art in any form is a great example,human art brightens the day of billions of people every day,in some cases it makes possible the "rat race" which is currently a necessary evil.

If some didn't have their music,daily dose of art media,20 breathing squats... whatever,they wouldn't even make it out the front door.

 

[Depleted]

Wanted to post today's devotional from Spurgeon, since it is about God's choice:

“Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee.”
Isa_41:9

If we have received the grace of God in our hearts, its practical effect has been to make us God’s servants. We may be unfaithful servants, we certainly are unprofitable ones, but yet, blessed be his name, we are his servants, wearing his livery, feeding at his table, and obeying his commands. We were once the servants of sin, but he who made us free has now taken us into his family and taught us obedience to his will. We do not serve our Master perfectly, but we would if we could. As we hear God’s voice saying unto us, “Thou art my servant,” we can answer with David, “I am thy servant; thou hast loosed my bonds.” But the Lord calls us not only his servants, but his chosen ones-”I have chosen thee.” We have not chosen him first, but he hath chosen us. If we be God’s servants, we were not always so; to sovereign grace the change must be ascribed. The eye of sovereignty singled us out, and the voice of unchanging grace declared, “I have loved thee with an everlasting love.” Long ere time began or space was created God had written upon his heart the names of his elect people, had predestinated them to be conformed unto the image of his Son, and ordained them heirs of all the fulness of his love, his grace, and his glory. What comfort is here! Has the Lord loved us so long, and will he yet cast us away? He knew how stiffnecked we should be, he understood that our hearts were evil, and yet he made the choice. Ah! our Saviour is no fickle lover. He doth not feel enchanted for awhile with some gleams of beauty from his church’s eye, and then afterwards cast her off because of her unfaithfulness. Nay, he married her in old eternity; and it is written of Jehovah, “He hateth putting away.” The eternal choice is a bond upon our gratitude and upon his faithfulness which neither can disown.

 

[Depleted]

So this begs the question,did God determine Hitler would come to power? As in,was that Gods will?

Yes! Ask Corrie Ten Boom!

 

[valiant]

Naw i sure dont, i stick with what God says of things, cant go wrong and it doesnt need reformation, its already perfect

Then stick with what GOD SAYS when He says 'He chose us in Him before the world began' (Eph 1.4), when Jesus speaks of those 'given to him by the Father' (John 6.37-39), when Paul says 'on whom He will He has mercy, and whom He will He hardens' (Rom 9.18), when Peter says, 'chosen according to the foreordainment of God'(1 Peter 1.2).

 

[Depleted]

It wouldn't have matter what I opened with,it was still going to be dismissed,that is the BDF. I was opening the subject and the first thing people demanded a def. of "free will" and I know as soon as I did I would be called Arminian,or however you spell it and people will walk away saying they won the debate. So before we jumped into all that I wanted to use some quotes and videos to start a convo. Bible verses mean nothing in the BDF and they'll be discounted just as quickly.


There are serious problems with the dogma of “theistic determination,” i.e., the notion that God orchestrates the choices we humans make.
First, there is the difficulty this theory creates for the biblical affirmation of the goodness of God (Romans 2:4). Jehovah is a being of absolute holiness (Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8), thus he is too “pure” to tolerate evil (Habakkuk 1:13). Any dogma, therefore, that casts a reflection upon the goodness of the Creator is corrupt. One Calvinist argues: “f a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it” (Clark, 1961, 221). What conclusion necessarily follows from that statement? Whose fault is it when men do wrong? Can there even be any “wrong,” if there is no free will? How can God possibly condemn human beings for evil (e.g., murder, adultery, etc.) if he himself “determines the choices” they make? This ideology makes no sense.
Second, the denial of human free will is in conflict with multiple biblical texts of clearest import.

1. Christ personified Jerusalem as one who had persecuted the Lord’s prophets. He had sought to rescue them from a coming destruction, but they “would not” (Matthew 23:37). They did not will to change their lives!
2. In one of his parables, Christ pictured rebellious sinners as a “prodigal son,” yet who eventually declared: “I will arise and go to my father ... I will say ... I have sinned” (Luke 15:18). If man is void of free will, this illustration is woefully misleading.
3. In John’s Gospel Jesus declared that the OT Scriptures pointed the way to him; but, he cautioned, “you will not come to me that you may have life” (5:40). Does language have meaning?
4. He later announced that if anyone “wills” to obey his teaching, he can know whether his message is authentic or not (7:17).
5. The NT concludes with this gracious invitation: “[H]e that is thirsty, let him come; he that will, let him take of the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17).

These passages, and scores of others, powerfully refute the “no free will” heresy.
Third, beyond explicit statements of human free will, numerous texts logically imply both the ability and the urgency of man to exercise his personal will power in submitting to divine authority through obedience. Note:

1. Every command from God implies both the ability and necessity for the recipient to submit to the divine injunction. It is nonsense to suggest that the Lord commands a duty to which the subject cannot possibly yield.
2. The Bible overflows with warnings for those who neglect to “give earnest heed” to divine obedience (Hebrews 2:1ff). Why caution a person against doing what he could not do even if he so wished?
3. If man cannot exercise his will in obeying (or disobeying) the Creator, why should he ever feel a sense of guilt—as did Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:7-8), Judas and Pilate (Matthew 27:4, 24), or Paul (1 Timothy 1:13)?
4. And what shall be said of the numberless texts that contain either “curses” or “blessings” in response to human activity (cf. Deuteronomy 27:12-13), if indeed a man cannot “incline himself either to good or evil,” as Calvin alleged (op. cit., 1.229).

The Motive

Why have a few denied what is so obvious to so many, namely that man possesses the ability to choose right over wrong? Likely the answer lies in the reality that a denial of “free will” somehow “justifies” an immoral lifestyle. Atheist Aldous Huxley expressed it like this: “[T]here is no valid reason why [one] personally should not do as he wants to do” (1966, 19; emp. WJ). If a person is not responsible for his decisions, he can accelerate the reckless life at full throttle—with no pangs of conscience!
Biblical Determinism

There is a legitimate biblical “determinism,” and it stands a universe apart from the perverted ideas surveyed above. The term “determinate” translates the Greek word, horizo (8x NT), meaning “to set a boundary.” It is used in connection with Christ in the following senses.

1. In the eternal counsel of God, the death of Jesus as the atonement for sin was a divine “determinate” (Acts 2:23; cf. Luke 22:22).
2. By his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was “declared” (horizo), i.e., determined to be God’s Son in a uniquely powerful way (Romans 1:4). # God’s sovereignty over the nations of the world is emphasized in that he has “determined” the duration of their supremacy and the limitation of their dominion (Acts 17:26).
3. Salvation from sin is “limited” (KJV) or “defined” (ASV; horizo – Hebrews 4:7) by a certain (symbolic) “day.” It is the “Today” when a person chooses to “hear his voice,” “hardens not” his heart, and “obeys” the conditions of salvation (as implied by “disobedience” v. 6b). The Lord has “determined” to save all who choose to do his will (Revelation 22:17).
4. God has appointed a certain day on which he will judge the world in righteousness, and he has “ordained” (horizo) that the judgment will be rendered by his Son (Acts 17:31b; cf. 10:42), the guarantee of which was the Savior’s resurrection.

Scripture never states nor implies that God has unconditionally “determined” to save some and condemn others.

the Christian Courier



ps. the article mentions Calvinists,I understand not all Calvinists would agree with the comment sited.

I would like to meet the people who don't think man can choose.

 

[Depleted]

I don't know what"Calvinism" is nor am I inclined to find out,it's probably just another gang supposedly doing God's work.

I guess that you guys are talking about free will?I think that God gave it to us not just as a test but also as a tool,a means to better ourselves.

Art in any form is a great example,human art brightens the day of billions of people every day,in some cases it makes possible the "rat race" which is currently a necessary evil.

If some didn't have their music,daily dose of art media,20 breathing squats... whatever,they wouldn't even make it out the front door.

I don't want to know what you believe and don't care to find out because you're probably just another gang supposedly doing god's work.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Then stick with what GOD SAYS when He says 'He chose us in Him before the world began' (Eph 1.4), when Jesus speaks of those 'given to him by the Father' (John 6.37-39), when Paul says 'on whom He will He has mercy, and whom He will He hardens' (Rom 9.18), when Peter says, 'chosen according to the foreordainment of God'(1 Peter 1.2).

Yeah, the whole space/time thingy throws a lot of folks off.

 

[valiant]

I would like to meet the people who don't think man can choose.

Man can choose, but he cannot choose freely. He is bound by custom, prejudice, environment, self-will, and a hundred other things.

 

[FreeNChrist]

"The discussion often proceeds as if God is bound by time, as we are. But He is the creator of time and as such is not constrained by it. We speak of foreknowledge, as if it is prior knowledge from God’s point of view, as it is from ours. But for God, it is simply knowledge with no “before” or “after” about it. He can know something as it happens — and it all happens for Him in one moment — without that knowledge being the cause of it happening. Knowledge does not equal causality. For example, if you and I were sitting together and you turned to me and said something, I would know what you were saying as you were saying it. But my knowledge of you saying it would not be the cause of you saying it. "You would be free to say it or not. Likewise, God’s “foreknowledge” (which to Him is simply knowledge) of what we do, say, think or believe does not require that He be the cause of it.

In His sovereignty God has, for whatever reason, chosen to give us free will. That is a grace. And if He has chosen to influence our will by a further grace to turn to Him, it is still, as Lewis says, our will that does so. If we treat the will as anything other than voluntary and free to do or not do otherwise, then we are really not talking about will but determinism.

After years of batting the question around I have found no significance to it. With Lewis, I suspect it really is a meaningless question, and agree that perhaps the distinction it makes really is nonsensical after all."


- JEFF DOLES

 

[kaylagrl]

No, sorry. Matthew 11:25-30. God doesn't fit into men's finite concept of fairness. Many have never heard and have died lost.



Actually, faith comes by hearing. I'm fairly certain that if you are like many, you believe faith is innate, contrary to Romans 10:17 and other Scriptures.

Why would they need the Word when God already brought every single person who has ever lived to Himself already? (my question is rhetorical, it doesn't need answered, I am not asking you for information) The drawing implies that salvation will occur. It isn't referring to an opportunity to cast the deciding vote.

Quote" God doesn't fit into men's finite concept of fairness. Many have never heard and have died lost. "


Romans 1-[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; [/FONT]so that they are without excuse

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]And this is where the rubber meets the road for me with Calvinism. To say that people have been lost for eternity because they never heard the truth,never had the chance to know God is ridiculous. Consider this,Im born in the deepest darkest part of Africa and I have no access to a Bible,to the outer would and because of where Im born God allows me to die because no one can reach me with the truth?! What kind of cruel God is that! No, God can make Himself known,send an angel of light if necessary. Muslims are having visions of Jesus and coming to the truth.Paul himself was miraculously saved. No,the truth is there for us to find if we seek Him,according to the Bible. We are without excuse if we do not find Him.





[/FONT]

 

[trofimus]

Tell them to raise their hand to their head, then to lower it again, to move it side to side. Then ask them if God forced their hand up and down, and from side to side, or if they chose to do it (or not do it) of their own free will?

Deep question: Can you explain to me how does your free will force your hand to obey?

What is the connection between your will (in soul) and your physical body?

I know only about one explanation... and you will not like it.

 

[kaylagrl]

I wonder how many are aware of this , ravi zacharias and his faith as many televagelist in this generation hmm

Mission and Vision | RZIM

Statement of Faith

We believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth; And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried; the third day he rose from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of the saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting."


Time to wake up , for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Shalom with love

​Magenta has it right,they are not speaking of the RCC.

 

[kaylagrl]

Revelation 18:4-5 says....." And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE (God is speaking here), that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. "

Shalom

The topic is free choice.The comments are about what Zacharias said about that subject. This is not a Catholic thread so Im asking you to take your comments elsewhere. You are derailing the thread.Thank you.

 

[Stephen63]

I like listening to Ravi, he has some very good things to say especially on philosophical thought.

Colossians 2​

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophyand empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9Forin Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

 

[kaylagrl]

You have no idea what the reformed belief is.

Reformed is a much bigger subject that what we have discussed.The Reformation had many more people involved than just Calvin. As I found in my other thread "Reformed" is a big umbrella with various beliefs. To say one does not understand Reformed is hardly fair. If people read through my other thread Im sure there is no way they could nail down what Reformed believe. Its very complicated.

 

[trofimus]

Reformed is a much bigger subject that what we have discussed.The Reformation had many more people involved than just Calvin. As I found in my other thread "Reformed" is a big umbrella with various beliefs. To say one does not understand Reformed is hardly fair. If people read through my other thread Im sure there is no way they could nail down what Reformed believe. Its very complicated.

Regarding his post about puppets etc he understand really nothing. You cant hide his ignorance by saying that reformed faith has various views. Not this one.

 

[Stephen63]

Originally Posted by Adstar

Free will is ones ability to make a free choice... Without free will no one can make a choice..

Sometimes because of free will, I can't make a choice.

Totally disagree..... When I'm in that spot, I make the best choice..... one of each.