Lets Talk Free Choice

[Meggido]

Are you really saying God created all of the universe so man can choose?

If that is, indeed, what you're saying, then obvious second question, Doesn't that make man-choice the most important thing to God?

And, if perchance you aren't getting where I'm going with this, Did God's will suddenly become controlled by Man's will?

Did you choose your current husband or just get arranged with him?

 

[Desertsrose]

This is kind of a weird discussion. Because we can't know for certain either way.

But, the underlying concept here that is not being discussed is the thought that mankind is basically good. Those that believe in free will believe that people can make good choices out of their own innate goodness.

The Lord Jesus says there is only One that is Good and that is God.

So your free will, without the influence of God, can only choose what is not good, or evil continually.


In order to have chosen that Good Thing you must have been influenced by the One that is Good, God.


This is a sort of puzzle that some who have been Saved by the Power of God look into. I didn't start out thinking that I had no power to do good. Quite the opposite. Before I came to Christ I thought I was a pretty good person.

If you were saved by the Power of God and not your own power, then whose will has been done?
If you were given a gift that you could not perform yourself, whose will has been done?
If God is producing good fruit in your life that you can't do yourself, whose will is being done?


Are you choosing to do good or are you choosing to stop choosing, to ask for Gods Will to be done and not your own?

I know what Pride says. But what does the bible say?

Those who promote free will realize what a sinner we are, that we needs God's grace mercy and power if we're going to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The difference between the two differences here is that the reformed thinker believes that God has chosen beforehand who will be saved and that it's limited to only the few.

What I believe is that the invitation to come is for everyone. We're told to come and God gives the ability to come if we want. God responds to man's desire. If I harden my heart, God will harden it even more. If I respond to God's call to be saved, He enables me to come to Him through prevenient grace that He's bestowed onto all mankind.

A scripture that shows God responding to man's actions:

“Now as for you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus you have spoken, saying, “Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we are rotting away in them; how then can we survive?”’ Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’ Ezekiel 33:10-11

God is pleading with His beloved chosen people. And to all of them. He has foreknowledge and knows those who will respond, but the invitation is to all of them. He's not wanting them to perish in their sins. He's doing everything He can on His part to get them to repent and live. But because He has given them the free will to choose their destiny, He doesn't force them one way or the other. The choice is theirs to make.

 

[kaylagrl]

I have never said that our choice is taken away... are you sure you are talking to the right person?

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ding-misconceptions-about-reformed-faith.html
- read the very first point

Somehow we're crossing wires. How can we have a choice if we are elected to either heaven or hell? This is where I am stuck. I have loved ones right now that I would term "lost" not serving the Lord. So there are two paths here. Either they are elected for heaven and neither I nor they know it,or they are elected to hell. And if they are elected for hell no prayers nor tears on my part will save them. They can hit the bottom and turn to me for advice and all I can do is shrug and say "maybe you're elected to heaven,maybe to hell but neither of us will know till we're dead". This is where people are stuck. You are saying that you have choice,but you dont. You are saying a sinner cannot cry out for Gods mercy and I just do not believe that and I dont see it in the Bible.

 

[Meggido]

This is kind of a weird discussion. Because we can't know for certain either way.

But, the underlying concept here that is not being discussed is the thought that mankind is basically good. Those that believe in free will believe that people can make good choices out of their own innate goodness.

The Lord Jesus says there is only One that is Good and that is God.

So your free will, without the influence of God, can only choose what is not good, or evil continually.


In order to have chosen that Good Thing you must have been influenced by the One that is Good, God.


This is a sort of puzzle that some who have been Saved by the Power of God look into. I didn't start out thinking that I had no power to do good. Quite the opposite. Before I came to Christ I thought I was a pretty good person.

If you were saved by the Power of God and not your own power, then whose will has been done?
If you were given a gift that you could not perform yourself, whose will has been done?
If God is producing good fruit in your life that you can't do yourself, whose will is being done?


Are you choosing to do good or are you choosing to stop choosing, to ask for Gods Will to be done and not your own?

I know what Pride says. But what does the bible say?

Do you guys just outright reject or dismiss the role of the Holy Spirit leading men to repentance?

 

[kaylagrl]

We can choose. But we cannot choose 'freely'. We choose according to our nature, and that is sinful.



I am pleased we have found someone who understands God thoroughly. But don't you think you're too good for this site?



Yes O wise one, but we are mere mortals. Whereas you are clearly sinless. And so young

​Ok,enough of that. Same as in the other thread I started.Play nice,sarcasm not needed.

 

[Desertsrose]

They chose that of their own free will, and yet free will was changed that day. Our will is now connected to our nature. And just like lions didn't eat lambs in the garden, but they do now, Adam and Eve didn't have a sin nature in that garden, but we all do now.

And God made a way to bring back who we were supposed to be. Jesus dying on that cross for all the whosoevers will believe. All the ones the Father wrought! (John 3:16-21.) God replaces that sin nature with his supernature. And after that we do choose to follow him. But only after that.

I'm not against choice. I just know, since Jesus out and out told us this, that our choice is always to hide in the darkness to keep our sin. We hated the light! Someone has to change that, and it wasn't us.

I believe that Adam and Eve were created with a nature that caused them to sin or they wouldn't have done so.

They were created and God called his creation good. He didn't call it perfect and we don't find that understanding anywhere.

I think that tradition has assumed Adam and Eve's perfection, but if they were perfect, they would not have been able to sin.

The only perfect human I know that is/was perfect is Jesus Christ our Lord.

The verse you quoted is one that free willers like. John 3:16.......for whosoever will.......

 

[Depleted]

Lynn, not a bait, trap or anything, just an honest observation about you and others theology.

God desires a honest 2-way loving/sharing relationship with him. We see this illustrated all over the Bible as a marriage.


What you and others describe is what I see in arranged marriages in other cultures. 2 people forced to form a union, because 1 sovereign authority willed it to be so and elected you to be part of it. This is despite anything you may or may not think of the arrangement or the person involved. This is despite what you really want, you are part of an arrangement , predicated upon rules, regulations, traditions and so on.

Now there is somewhat a semblance of a loving relationship, children are born[fruit], dedication and perseverance are shown by those in the relationship, traditions are obeyed, including no disrespect, disobedient to the one in charge of the relationship. There is expression of love, but no intimacy, there is conversation, but no connection, there is facade, but no real freedom. At the end there was really never love or true relationship, because rules got in the way of really having true choice.

Are you in a loving 2 way relationship with Father or something else?

I'm in an arranged marriage both with God and in my real marriage.

I had no plans to get married. Matter of fact, I was very much against getting tied into marriage, because of what I saw marriage was. In my mind, marriage meant two people living together to have kids. The man got to go to work everyday and do something he wanted to do. Then he came home and took a nap until the kids kissed him before going to bed themselves.

Meanwhile, the woman was stuck at home with three or more kids under feet at all time, spending hours a day ironing everything from school uniform shirts, to work shirts, and sheets, then keeping the massive house forever clean, always picking up after husband and kids, and the only way to spend time doing something for herself was to call friends after dinner while the kids did their homework and the husband took his nap. She wanted to be a teacher or to start a business, but she's stuck making sure the kids are taken care of, helping with homework, leading girl scouts or boy scouts for her kids, and trying to keep two younger kids out of trouble while cheering on the other one at Little League or football games.

Why would anyone ever want that?

And then along came the guy who changed my mind, because he loved me enough to want to give me what I wanted too. And to stick by me as I stick by him. So, God arranged the one who could change my mind on marriage.

As for God? I would much rather do what I want than to even bother figuring out if God exists, except then he arranged that marriage, and I found the same thing. The one who loves me for who I am and wants to make me a better person, so I want to be that better person because I love him for loving me that much.

He arranged that too, much to my surprise.

Yes, arranged marriages, but twice I got the absolute best guy for me, so I want to give them both my very best. They love me. I love them. It happens that way. I'm not being forced to stay. I want to stay.

[video=youtube;5JVhbusBDi4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JVhbusBDi4[/video]

 

[Meggido]

Somehow we're crossing wires. How can we have a choice if we are elected to either heaven or hell? This is where I am stuck. I have loved ones right now that I would term "lost" not serving the Lord. So there are two paths here. Either they are elected for heaven and neither I nor they know it,or they are elected to hell. And if they are elected for hell no prayers nor tears on my part will save them. They can hit the bottom and turn to me for advice and all I can do is shrug and say "maybe you're elected to heaven,maybe to hell but neither of us will know till we're dead". This is where people are stuck. You are saying that you have choice,but you dont. You are saying a sinner cannot cry out for Gods mercy and I just do not believe that and I dont see it in the Bible.

Going with my marriage analogy. Would you be in a marriage/relationship that resembled this?

I will say it and get stoned. This is not loving relationship with God, this is a relationship with a masquerading angel of light.

This is why I left reformed/Calvinist dogma years ago.

 

[trofimus]

Somehow we're crossing wires. How can we have a choice if we are elected to either heaven or hell? This is where I am stuck. I have loved ones right now that I would term "lost" not serving the Lord. So there are two paths here. Either they are elected for heaven and neither I nor they know it,or they are elected to hell. And if they are elected for hell no prayers nor tears on my part will save them. They can hit the bottom and turn to me for advice and all I can do is shrug and say "maybe you're elected to heaven,maybe to hell but neither of us will know till we're dead". This is where people are stuck. You are saying that you have choice,but you dont. You are saying a sinner cannot cry out for Gods mercy and I just do not believe that and I dont see it in the Bible.

I see only one specific question, the rest is just your theory or view.

Question:
"How can we have a choice if we are elected to either heaven or hell?"

The election does not cancel a choice.

The election just make certain that my choice will be according to God's will and that it will last to the end. By various means (new heart, for example) and circumstances (hearing the Gospel, for example).

 

[Grandpa]

Do you guys just outright reject or dismiss the role of the Holy Spirit leading men to repentance?

No. Its the whole point.

God leads, God influences.

 

[Meggido]

I'm in an arranged marriage both with God and in my real marriage.

I had no plans to get married. Matter of fact, I was very much against getting tied into marriage, because of what I saw marriage was. In my mind, marriage meant two people living together to have kids. The man got to go to work everyday and do something he wanted to do. Then he came home and took a nap until the kids kissed him before going to bed themselves.

Meanwhile, the woman was stuck at home with three or more kids under feet at all time, spending hours a day ironing everything from school uniform shirts, to work shirts, and sheets, then keeping the massive house forever clean, always picking up after husband and kids, and the only way to spend time doing something for herself was to call friends after dinner while the kids did their homework and the husband took his nap. She wanted to be a teacher or to start a business, but she's stuck making sure the kids are taken care of, helping with homework, leading girl scouts or boy scouts for her kids, and trying to keep two younger kids out of trouble while cheering on the other one at Little League or football games.

Why would anyone ever want that?

And then along came the guy who changed my mind, because he loved me enough to want to give me what I wanted too. And to stick by me as I stick by him. So, God arranged the one who could change my mind on marriage.

As for God? I would much rather do what I want than to even bother figuring out if God exists, except then he arranged that marriage, and I found the same thing. The one who loves me for who I am and wants to make me a better person, so I want to be that better person because I love him for loving me that much.

He arranged that too, much to my surprise.

Yes, arranged marriages, but twice I got the absolute best guy for me, so I want to give them both my very best. They love me. I love them. It happens that way. I'm not being forced to stay. I want to stay.

[video=youtube;5JVhbusBDi4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JVhbusBDi4[/video]

Without being to harsh, what you replied with here, is not what you seem to have been defending or educating people on.

 

[Desertsrose]

Oddly enough she loves school and is better behaved there than home.Figure that out.

I recently took our puppy to obedience school at Petsmart. I think why they do better is because they're smart and know that it's only for a short time. hee hee!!!

I think the leash is key. When I have him on leash here at home he obeys and follows along perfectly. It's like that leash and obedience have something in common and go together. Just like treats. If I have the treats, he obeys perfectly too!

 

[kaylagrl]

Do you know why Joshua and his house chose the Lord that day? Because the Lord chose him 40 years earlier.

We are not denying choice. We embrace choice, because we remember what that choice was and what God wrought in our stead, despite that choice!!!

God took us to obedience school instead of waiting around to find out what our choice was. Sleeping and eating was never going to turn into "Oh boy! I just want to obey you all the time now" without God changing us to just that.

​Yes,I believe God changes the heart but I also believe we can still walk away.We have the choice to disobey.

 

[trofimus]

​Yes,I believe God changes the heart but I also believe we can still walk away.We have the choice to disobey.

We certainly have that choice. But if we are born from above and have a new heart, we will not make that choice, because we do not want to.

 

[Depleted]

Hi Lynn,

Kayla is giving a type of parable. Just as with the parables of Jesus, you can only take them so far. Kayla is only using her dogs example as a metaphor for the reasoning behind why God would call mankind to come to Him and then prevent Him from being able to do so.

Forget if the dog wanted to go to obedience school. It's n/a.

So if God tells us to come to Him and steps on the leash to prevent us from coming to Him, it makes no sense to His character, His will and His desire towards mankind.

I'm being literal. Dog's have choice too. And they make roughly the same choices we make -- do what pleases them.

As for God stepping on a leash? God doesn't step on leashes. He's never stepped on a leash. I don't even get where people think he might.

He takes care of his creation the same way. He takes great care of his creation. But one thing in all of his creation he has chosen to love in a very special way -- people. Not all people. The people he chooses. We don't get a say in who he chooses, but we react to that choice when he chooses us. And after that it is still our choices, but through the love and discipline of God.

We love, because he first loved us.

 

[Grandpa]

Those who promote free will realize what a sinner we are, that we needs God's grace mercy and power if we're going to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The difference between the two differences here is that the reformed thinker believes that God has chosen beforehand who will be saved and that it's limited to only the few.

What I believe is that the invitation to come is for everyone. We're told to come and God gives the ability to come if we want. God responds to man's desire. If I harden my heart, God will harden it even more. If I respond to God's call to be saved, He enables me to come to Him through prevenient grace that He's bestowed onto all mankind.

A scripture that shows God responding to man's actions:

“Now as for you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus you have spoken, saying, “Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we are rotting away in them; how then can we survive?”’ Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’ Ezekiel 33:10-11

God is pleading with His beloved chosen people. And to all of them. He has foreknowledge and knows those who will respond, but the invitation is to all of them. He's not wanting them to perish in their sins. He's doing everything He can on His part to get them to repent and live. But because He has given them the free will to choose their destiny, He doesn't force them one way or the other. The choice is theirs to make.

I view this quite differently.

God gave the people who rejected His Grace the opportunity to see for themselves that they COULDN'T choose by their free will and their strength and understanding to be Blessed and not Cursed.

But they wouldn't see it. They couldn't.

So God decided that the choice wouldn't be left up to people that can't inately do it. God decided He Would intercede on peoples behalf.

Ezekiel 36:24-27
[FONT=&quot]24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.[/FONT]

 

[Desertsrose]

I will say the opposite.

Only God has free will. All creatures are finite and so bounded by their environments. And also bounded by themselves.

​But we've been made in God's image and in His likeness and He imparted free will to us at creation. When we speak of free will, we're focusing on out free will to reject or accept God's free offer of salvation to whosoever will.

Within God's lovingkindness and mercy, which I see all throughout scripture, He bestows on all mankind grace to be able to respond to His call.

Anyone can come, but not very many will want to. Only a remnant of the whole will truly want to serve God with their whole heart for eternity. But God gives man free will to choose his path.

 

[kaylagrl]

Yes, it is that! Timeline again!

Your dog did not choose obedience school. Your dog would never choose obedience school. And yet, once the dog gets "This pleases my master," then the dog "Comes" to please you.

Your choice. The dog's choice. Timeline salvation. Only after you save the dog by bringing her into your family, and then taking her to obedience school, does the dog then choose to follow your lead. (Or not. Because, let's face it. We may well know not to chew on the sofa, but sometimes we still choose to chew on the sofa. At least now, we know about that choice. Before we simply didn't get that was a choice.)

The only reason that leash stops the dog from going to obedience school is because you're stopping your own dog from going to obedience school. Why would you do that?

AND, in like kind, are you gathering up all the dogs within 5 miles to take them to obedience school too? Of course not! They aren't your dogs. You chose your dog. You did not choose those dogs. Is that unfair to the other dogs suddenly?

Works the same way with God chooses us.

Well I can say this is turning into one doggone argument. Had to do it.

Quote "The only reason that leash stops the dog from going to obedience school is because you're stopping your own dog from going to obedience school. Why would you do that?"

Exactly! Why would God stop us coming to Him? Thats my point!

Quote " are you gathering up all the dogs within 5 miles to take them to obedience school too? Of course not! They aren't your dogs. You chose your dog. You did not choose those dogs. Is that unfair to the other dogs suddenly?

But Im not stopping them from going to school. Im not blocking their way. The school is there,they know the price of admission. The can come if they wish.I even put out a flyer telling them to come.So the choice is theirs.

This is fun! Your turn,woof.

 

[kaylagrl]

I realized one thing and I do not like it.

I have never heard any Calvinist saying "if we have a free will, I do not want such a God".

But I can hear it from the "free will" camp quite frequently. "If this or that... such a God is cruel, evil, lier blah blah blah"

Please, realize that you cannot attack God so easily, you can be wrong or your perception can be wrong. Do not say such things.

Im not attacking God,Im attacking,challenging your view of God.The way you are representing God.Therefore Im saying nothing against God,nor would I.

 

[trofimus]

​But we've been made in God's image and in His likeness and He imparted free will to us at creation. When we speak of free will, we're focusing on out free will to reject or accept God's free offer of salvation to whosoever will.

Within God's lovingkindness and mercy, which I see all throughout scripture, He bestows on all mankind grace to be able to respond to His call.

Anyone can come, but not very many will want to. Only a remnant of the whole will truly want to serve God with their whole heart for eternity. But God gives man free will to choose his path.

This is half of the Bible.

There is also another one, revealing to us what is happening in the background.

We should accept both parts

Everybody of you seems to have a different definition of free will, though. I have no idea why should free will mean only the ability to choose or reject God's offer and nothing else?