Lets Talk Free Choice

Adstar · May 18, 2017

I don't like it when people put words into my mouth that i never said... I want you now to go and quote where i said that Calvinism is universalism.. If you fail to do so.. ( And you will fail to do so because i never said any such thing) Then i expect a full and public apology post on this thread from you...

If not then this is where our fellowship ends..

Adstar · May 18, 2017

preacher4truth said:

Lets look and review one of the 5 pillars of calvinism called TULIP shall we:

"I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."

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So here we have the doctrine of Irresistible grace which proclaims that if the Holy Spirit acts upon us then we have no ability to resist His leading..

So if this doctrine is correct then the verse i quoted in Acts 7 must be uninspired and calvinists must seek to remove this verse from the Bible..

Acts 7: KJV
51"¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Remember The Holy Spirit is irresistible in calvanisim.. If people only hear the """outward general call to salvation""" then the Holy Spirit is not involved in that call.. So when a person who God has created to burn in hell ( according to calvinism ) hears the call he is only hearing the """outward general call to salvation""" only and the Holy Spirit is taking no part in that event.. According to calvinism when the Holy Spirit becomes involved then His leading is irresistible..

Therefore either Acts 7 verse 51 is correct or calvinism is correct... You can be assured i will place my Faith in the Bible not in the thoughts of a man john calvin..

Depleted · May 18, 2017

Adstar said:

No, you're your own special kind of zombie who just accepts what anyone gives him without any ability to think out a problem at all. I'll name you Adstar Zombie, because you had no thought in your choice.

Depleted · May 18, 2017

Adstar said:

Adstar Zombie? So you are to blabber away on any old thing, if it makes sense or not, and it doesn't, but I'm not supposed to not respond to you when you ask me a question? New rule for you, because you are so very special!

Yeah, Really, Adstar Zombie, you can't think at all. I have no idea how you can make any choice about anything. Nor do I know why choice would mean something to someone who doesn't have a clue to make a choice.

maybe it's all about playing with the groovy keyboard and showing off your sheer genius on a subject that you completely clueless about. Then again, anyone who can't choice has to be clueless anyway.

You do have the zombie thing down fine! The brains are gone.

Depleted · May 18, 2017

Adstar said:

I know! That's your job. You put words in other people's mouth. How dare they put words in your mouth too, Adstar Zombie?

And yes, by all means Calvinist MUST apologize to the one calling us zombies.

You really don't think at all. I'm mighty impress. I haven't met anyone that unable to think in a long time.

SovereignGrace · May 19, 2017

Desertsrose said:

I hear this all the time. So, Jesus says to forgive them of them crucifying is correct. But this was not a forgiveness, in that He was asking His Father to wipe away all their sins. If they would have truly known who He really was, God in the flesh, they would not have crucified Him, therefore, the OT scriptures about His crucifixion would have been a lie. But although He asked the Father to forgive them of this wicked act, they had other sins that were not forgiven. Look at how they acted after He died and arose. They gave $ to those soldiers to tell a lie that His disciples came and took His body away, so to make His resurrection a ruse to others around them.

Context, Sissy, context. Who was this letter addressed to? To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.[Romans 1:7] It was addressed to believers. Then look at how Paul wrote that which you quoted...

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

The ungodly enemies of God that the Christ died for was the elect of God, those chosen in Him from before the creation of the world. That's the context of Romans 5:1-11.

trofimus · May 19, 2017

peacefulbeliever said:

Instead of making theories just read what is written about it. Eve sinned because she had an inclination to do it, she liked how the tree looked like. This is inclination.

If she had NO INCLINATION to any decision, as you propose, she would get freezed, stuck and could not move and do anything. Like the Buridan's donkey, standing between two foods and not able to decide which one to eat so he dies of hunger.

We must ALWAYS have some inclination to do something.

SovereignGrace · May 19, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Ppl do make choices all the time.

Should I wear the brown shoes with my black belt?
Should I have a comb over or simply get a decent looking haircut?
Should I wear my pants under or over my belly?

But ppl do make a choice to not serve God every day. They are in open rebellion to Him every day they live in their unregenerate state. In this state, they are God-haters. In this state, they are His enemies. In this state, they run from Him. In this state, they don't go looking for a door to gain entrance into so they can worship Him as He so richly deserves.

Now, let us delve into God's word and see what we can find regarding man's ability to choose...

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.[John 3:19-21]

Here we can see two ppl being addressed, those who love darkness more than Light, and those who love Light more than darkness. Now, why do ppl not come to the Light? Because they love the darkness too much, plus it exposes their wickedness before the Father. They choose to not come to the Light because they hate that Light. Now, why do ppl love the Light more than darkness? Because what has taken place in their life has been a change in their life, their walk, their talk, even their will. They choose to come to that Light because God has wrought grace upon their heart and change their hating Him to loving Him.

Now, how does one gain entrance into this Light?

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."[John 3:3]

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."[John 3:5]

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."[John 3:8]

Here we see three times Jesus said you must be born again[born from above{anothen}] to even see the kingdom of God. Now, none of us had any choice in who we born to, what country we were born into, what time frame we were born into, &c. That is the same way with our new birth. No one can stop the wind from blowing upon them, but they think they can stop the Spirit from quickening them into Spiritual life? Srsly? John put it this way, "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it."[John 5:21]

So, if God gives life to the dead, those who are spiritually dead that is, they then exercise faith and freely choose Christ as Lord and Saviour of their life.

Ariel82 · May 19, 2017

Was researching another topic and ran across this and thought I would share.

From the council of Trent of 1547

~The Council of Trent - Session 6~

Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.

kaylagrl · May 19, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Quote "But ppl do make a choice to not serve God every day. They are in open rebellion to Him every day they live in their unregenerate state. In this state, they are God-haters. In this state, they are His enemies. In this state, they run from Him. In this state, they don't go looking for a door to gain entrance into so they can worship Him as He so richly deserves.

Yes,before we are born again we are in rebellion,we are against God,we love darkness.Dont disagree at all. What we did agree on is who can respond to the message.

John 3

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Jesus says "you must be born again" Who can be born again? He says "whoever believes". Those who do not believe stay in darkness.The Holy Spirit draws,a person becomes born again when they heed the Holy Spirits call,the Holy Spirits job is to testify of Jesus to draw people to Him.You cant take a handful of verses and make a doctrine out of them,which is what Calvin did.

SovereignGrace · May 19, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Quote "But ppl do make a choice to not serve God every day. They are in open rebellion to Him every day they live in their unregenerate state. In this state, they are God-haters. In this state, they are His enemies. In this state, they run from Him. In this state, they don't go looking for a door to gain entrance into so they can worship Him as He so richly deserves.

Yes,before we are born again we are in rebellion,we are against God,we love darkness.Dont disagree at all. What we did agree on is who can respond to the message.

John 3

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Jesus says "you must be born again" Who can be born again? He says "whoever believes". Those who do not believe stay in darkness.The Holy Spirit draws,a person becomes born again when they heed the Holy Spirits call,the Holy Spirits job is to testify of Jesus to draw people to Him.You cant take a handful of verses and make a doctrine out of them,which is what Calvin did.

Sissy, you are putting the effect before the cause. One is not born again after they do something, but before.

kaylagrl · May 19, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Quote "No. Ppl are w/o excuse because they died sinners and had the Law written on their hearts."

God has made Himself known,man can seek and find Him.No one can die and say they did not have the opportunity to find Him. And yes,missionaries have been in the deepest parts of the world.But God doesn't need to have a person to spread the Gospel.Muslims are seeing visions and coming to Christ.As I said with the missionary my sister knows,they were having dreams,visions. All will have the chance to hear and respond.

Quote "I reject this ideology. Faith comes by hearing the message about the Christ.[Romans 10:17] The context of Romans 10:14-17 is via the verbal proclamation of the gospel, not these unfounded mystical accounts."

So Paul was not saved? How did He meet Jesus? Utter nonsense. I dont care if you reject it or not. If God used a donkey he can use a dream,which He used in the Bible often,to bring people to Him. If you're trying to tell me that if someone doesn't hear the spoken Word of God they're going to hell thats the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard. Again,you're taking a verse and making a doctrine out of it. If everyone had to actually hear the Gospel spoken to be saved God would make sure everyone heard the spoken words.

Quote "Paul easily laid this out in Romans 2. The true Israel comprises both Jews and Gentiles, those who have been circumcised in their hearts by the Spirit of God.[Romans 2:28,29]

No,we are not Israel,we are the church and they are not the same thing.God still has promises and work to do with the Jews that has nothing to do with the church.The land for instance,has nothing to do with the church.The remnant that will see the Messiah and be saved. The church has not part in these things.

Quote "Those who are under the power of sin are those who do not understand, do not seek Him. "

But they can!!! They can seek Him and be born again.That is the work of the Holy Spirit!

kaylagrl · May 19, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Until the Spirit draws and he has the choice to accept Him.

kaylagrl · May 19, 2017

preacher4truth said:

He believed!! They said "believe"!! They didn't say "oh wait,this may not work,you may or may not be elected.So you can believe but you may be one of those poor fools that was made for destruction and may go to hell anyway" They said "believe" he did and was saved. So simple a child can understand.

SovereignGrace · May 19, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Sissy, the natural birth is an example of the Spiritual birth. None exercised a will in their physical. None exercised their will in their Spiritual birth.

peacefulbeliever · May 19, 2017

trofimus said:

So she would have eaten of the tree without any temptation set before her because she just liked the look of that tree and therefore she desired that tree and her basic impulse was to eat of that tree? Wonder why God even brought in that scenario of the serpent's temptation? There is no need for the temptation for Eve if she was inclined to eat of the tree anyway - that was her desire, her disposition was to automatically go against what God commanded.

God set before her a choice - Satan set before her a choice.
God = do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall surely die.
Satan = You shall not surely die. Your eyes will be opened and you shall be as gods knowing good and evil.
After that the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat and gave also unto her husband with her and he did eat.

Just like this: Blessed is the man that endures temptation for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. (James 1) . . . Satan's temptation to become as gods and know good and evil brought forth lust; she was enticed, lust was conceived - when Eve ate and Adam ate of the fruit, it brought forth sin and death.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

Grace777x70 · May 19, 2017

kaylagrl said:

I agree. It is so obvious. Paul even included " you and your household" - if they too believed - they would be saved.

Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

There are no such thing as "distinctions" between people now.

Romans 10:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

[SUP]13 [/SUP] for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

BeyondET · May 19, 2017

Magenta said:

This is the dogma with the resurrection that's been around for centuries, many of scholars and priest etc. been teaching that there was only one ascend, this is not how scripture is written. the complete account is divided up into four gospels.

Jesus appeared right outside the tomb to Mary the morning of the resurrection and said don't touch me (Jn 20:17) for He had not ascended to the father but go and till the disciples He is ascending to the Father and He did and returned many times.

John 20:11-17
11But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre, 12And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus is not going to say such a statement then change His mind and stay on earth and don't ascend to the father before he appears to His brethren.

later on He descends from the Father to appear to the women again but this time He allows the women to touch His feet to hold Him.
Matthew 28:8
8 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
9Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

there in Galilee He allows His deciples to touch him as well for they thought He was in spirit form.
Luke 24:39
39behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus would not say what He said in (Jh 10:9) if He could not go in and out as well
John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture

It's going to hard for people to see the correct account when it's spread out over four gospels but with logic and of choice it is there within the four gospels.

SovereignGrace · May 19, 2017

kaylagrl said:

And the bible avers that NONE seek Him.

Yet many died never knowing Jesus existed. How can they call upon Him in whom they have not heard? Answer is they can't.

This is hyper-Calvinist theology.

This is mysticism and anti-Sola Scriptura. The word of God is the only thing to make one wise concerning salvation.

This is mysticism, anti-Sola Scriptura and anti-missionial. If all they need is this, there's no need to send missionaries.

Did the Spirit knock you off your ride? Did Jesus speak verbally to you? Of course not. You are using Paul's experience and conflating it with others. His was a rare occurrence and not to be as a way others have been saved.

Exactly.

Apparently not.

Hebrews 1:1.

Ppl go to hell because they're sinners.

I am not saying it, Paul did. Romans 10:14-17.

Hyper-dispensationial error. The true Jews have been circumcised in their hearts by the Spirit.[Romans 2:28,29] Both naturally born Jews and Gentiles have to have this circumcision.

Yet NONE seek Him, NONE understand. Those who seek Him have ALREADY been born of the Spirit.[John 1:13, Romans 9:16, John 3:3, 3:5 & 3:8]

notuptome · May 19, 2017

preacher4truth said:

John 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The jailer was confronted with his sin by the Holy Spirit of God. Isn't this what happened to you? How did you come to trust in the Lord for your salvation?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

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