Has the gift of speaking in tongues ceased? - Tim Conway
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Maybe I did not catch 170 or forgot who posted it. I apologize if I have misrepresented your view. I don't see the purpose of your rant I was responding to if you believe God does miracles through individuals. I didn't say I performed miracles. The rant I was responding to did not make sense to me. Miracles proving something doesn't mean miracles can't be filmed and put on YouTube.
Why me? I have a very narrow definition. I believe the gift of healing is in operation just not seen in so called miracle healers. I believe the gift of prophecy to be active but not in the from of new prophecy but the exposition of what has already been written. I support the biblical gifts of helps and administrations. The Holy Spirit fills and enables those who are in need of strength to minister to the body. God comforts and edifies the body through men who are surrendered to Him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The gift of prophecy is over as far as new revelation from God. Ended with John on Patmos.
To prophecy is to tell forth what God has written in His word. You might recall the term preaching. I prefer expository preaching with a gospel intent.
Back in the old days before the church went Hollywood men feared God and the certain judgment on sin.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
To prophecy is to tell forth what God has written in His word. You might recall the term preaching. I prefer expository preaching with a gospel intent.
Back in the old days before the church went Hollywood men feared God and the certain judgment on sin.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We can't help it
we've been entrusted with GOD's WORDS and to those whom HE has called, HE commissioned them
(those yesterday, those today, and those tomorrow) to "go"
for the GOSPEL will be preached to the ends of the earth
and then the end will come
while it is still today, the year of GOD's favor remains and it is still the day of salvation to anyone who hears and receives the WORD as it should be heard and received
GOD's plea by HIS SPIRIT to be reconciled to HIM
IN HIS SON
we've been entrusted with GOD's WORDS and to those whom HE has called, HE commissioned them
(those yesterday, those today, and those tomorrow) to "go"
for the GOSPEL will be preached to the ends of the earth
and then the end will come
while it is still today, the year of GOD's favor remains and it is still the day of salvation to anyone who hears and receives the WORD as it should be heard and received
GOD's plea by HIS SPIRIT to be reconciled to HIM
IN HIS SON
M
Right. I said anti-"Jesus-style". Also said NON-"Jesus-style". Another of your little twists. I know of all kinds of scenarios where (as the Bible prescribes) the church elders have anointed with oil and prayed over someone with cancer or whatever...and there was a resulting healing. But Jesus-style miracles are no longer occurring.
You know better than that. Good grief. The miracles that shocked people into belief and salvation...were the apostle-style miracles. Why are you feigning misunderstanding of the issue here?
Yes, "we" are talking about that. The prevalence of these Jesus-style/apostle-style miracles is another factor to consider. These kinds of miracles do not occur frequently nor do they occur at all.
Silly off-topic, off-point nonsense. If someone sneaks a secret symbol or signal onto the cover of their music album, the Christian young people who buy the album do not know about this sneaky secretiveness. For you to feign ignorance and misunderstanding about the inappropriateness of an alleged "Christian musician" sneaking secret messages (i.e. occult messages) under the noses of Christian young people...is dishonesty. Or profound ignorance. Or both.
Same goes for Pat Robertson's pose on the cover of Time mag (see my other thread). It is inappropriate to say the very least...for Robertson to display a secret signal unknown to his Christian followers. Even if we didn't know what the signal was indicating (but occult researchers and ex-occultists HAVE revealed the significance)...it is highly ominous and highly inappropriate. Again, your feigning is ridiculous and dishonest.
Again, your feigning is ridiculous and dishonest. There is CAUSE to ask the question "why has Smith inserted a secret occult symbol which indicates "Tyr", a known sign of the Devil...onto his album cover?". A random question pulled randomly out of thin air "are you a pedophile"...really? You claim not to understand the difference? You're dishonest.
The arguments you're trying to make here are just so profoundly ignorant and wildly off-topic. Again, I would invite you to take the discussion over to the new thread. You are a guy who apparently is desperate to change the subject. No ex-occultist or occult researcher would claim the devil "owns" certain shapes. Your statement is laughable and you know it. Occult symbols DO exist. If the Devil has used the "all-seeing eye" as one of his symbols, he doesn't own the shape of the "eye"...anymore then the USA owns the star shape used on their flag.
You took it upon yourself to 'conclude' I have never looked any of these things up on YouTube. To ridiculously presume in that fashion is, yes, virtually dishonest. It is a ridiculous presumption and you know it. Therefore, yes, dishonesty.
I don't "mock" miracles. I point out the dearth of miracles. That is a false and dishonest accusation. Should you now confess your sins of slander? How many fistfights do you get into in an average week, I would wonder? (LOL).
So now, on top of your false and dishonest assertion that I haven't researched these things...you now describe me as a "fool". Are you not taking your soul into your hands in labeling someone as "foolish" or "fool"? Should you now confess your sin and ask my forgiveness? How are all your "fistfights" coming along? I hope you dabble in martial arts, just for your own safety.
You're "obligated" to cease and desist from claiming there are ongoing Jesus-style miracles...when there aren't any. No one has been instantly (zapped) healed from life-long blindness or total paralysis.
Well...if someone has dishonestly conveyed false info...yes, I'd like to know about it. I've had it up to here with the tsunami of falsehood and dishonesty associated with you.
You know better than that. Good grief. The miracles that shocked people into belief and salvation...were the apostle-style miracles. Why are you feigning misunderstanding of the issue here?
Yes, "we" are talking about that. The prevalence of these Jesus-style/apostle-style miracles is another factor to consider. These kinds of miracles do not occur frequently nor do they occur at all.
Silly off-topic, off-point nonsense. If someone sneaks a secret symbol or signal onto the cover of their music album, the Christian young people who buy the album do not know about this sneaky secretiveness. For you to feign ignorance and misunderstanding about the inappropriateness of an alleged "Christian musician" sneaking secret messages (i.e. occult messages) under the noses of Christian young people...is dishonesty. Or profound ignorance. Or both.
Same goes for Pat Robertson's pose on the cover of Time mag (see my other thread). It is inappropriate to say the very least...for Robertson to display a secret signal unknown to his Christian followers. Even if we didn't know what the signal was indicating (but occult researchers and ex-occultists HAVE revealed the significance)...it is highly ominous and highly inappropriate. Again, your feigning is ridiculous and dishonest.
Again, your feigning is ridiculous and dishonest. There is CAUSE to ask the question "why has Smith inserted a secret occult symbol which indicates "Tyr", a known sign of the Devil...onto his album cover?". A random question pulled randomly out of thin air "are you a pedophile"...really? You claim not to understand the difference? You're dishonest.
The arguments you're trying to make here are just so profoundly ignorant and wildly off-topic. Again, I would invite you to take the discussion over to the new thread. You are a guy who apparently is desperate to change the subject. No ex-occultist or occult researcher would claim the devil "owns" certain shapes. Your statement is laughable and you know it. Occult symbols DO exist. If the Devil has used the "all-seeing eye" as one of his symbols, he doesn't own the shape of the "eye"...anymore then the USA owns the star shape used on their flag.
You took it upon yourself to 'conclude' I have never looked any of these things up on YouTube. To ridiculously presume in that fashion is, yes, virtually dishonest. It is a ridiculous presumption and you know it. Therefore, yes, dishonesty.
I don't "mock" miracles. I point out the dearth of miracles. That is a false and dishonest accusation. Should you now confess your sins of slander? How many fistfights do you get into in an average week, I would wonder? (LOL).
So now, on top of your false and dishonest assertion that I haven't researched these things...you now describe me as a "fool". Are you not taking your soul into your hands in labeling someone as "foolish" or "fool"? Should you now confess your sin and ask my forgiveness? How are all your "fistfights" coming along? I hope you dabble in martial arts, just for your own safety.
You're "obligated" to cease and desist from claiming there are ongoing Jesus-style miracles...when there aren't any. No one has been instantly (zapped) healed from life-long blindness or total paralysis.
Well...if someone has dishonestly conveyed false info...yes, I'd like to know about it. I've had it up to here with the tsunami of falsehood and dishonesty associated with you.
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M
A few more thoughts. Let's review:
You dodged the Unicorn analogy. You dodged the "moon landing" analogy. You dodged the "flat earth" analogy.
I invited you to discuss the Unicorn scenario. You then feign misunderstanding and claim "we're not discussing Unicorns". Right. But we are discussing the Unicorn ANALOGY...if you were to choose to cooperate...which you do not.
What these analogies prove is that one can reasonably conclude things without having been personally and physically present. I can reasonably ascertain there are no Unicorns anywhere on earth...without having personally scoured every square inch of earth. I believe one can reasonably ascertain there have been actual moon landings...without having personally traveled to the moon.
I can reasonably ascertain the earth is spherical without having actually traveled to outer space and been able to see the spherical shape myself. And I can reasonably ascertain there are no "Jesus-style" miracles going on...without having attended every single church service worldwide or having seen all 30 million YouTubes.
You have dodged all three of those analogies I provided. Aimlessly chit-chatting about the moon landings, in one instance. It's just bizarre.
Have you ever seen someone who has been stuck in a wheelchair for decades? Their legs are profoundly atrophied. You can spot it from a quarter mile. Have you even seen someone who has been blind for life? Their eyes are utterly dead. You don't need medical expertise to notice their eyes are just plain 'gone'.
Just once...has someone gotten a close-up video of someone fitting those descriptions...being able to instantly leap to their feet with 110% healing of their legs, just like in the Bible? Or just once...a close up video, before and after, of someone with profound life-long blindness...and where you can see that not only do they now have 20/20 vision...but that their eyes are no longer 'dead'. Where you can see their eyes have come back to life?
No. Not once.
And forget plowing through a thousand YouTubes -- why aren't such things being seen on the national TV shows of all these top Pentecostal and Charismatic churches...at least periodically? Just once even. A profoundly paralyzed individual who has utterly obvious and profound atrophy in his legs...leaping to his feet instantly with 110% healing...just like in the Bible?
You have no good answer. I do have the answer: Because this stuff is no longer going on. Just plain, ordinary, garden-variety common sense.
And your utterly counter-biblical idea...that you're not obligated to defend your faith (i.e. your set of beliefs...which includes a belief there are ongoing Jesus-style miracles)...that's just a huge dodge. And so ridiculous.
You try to erect an artificial obstacle in saying it's not your responsibility to plow through thousands of YouTubes in search of evidence. Hey fella, I don't care HOW you come up with a defense for your beliefs...it is STILL your responsibility to defend and reason for...your version of the Christian faith. And to say you're not responsible to do so...I know you don't even believe such nonsense yourself. But alas...you need to run and dodge...so you make whatever outrageous claim is necessary.
And then hilariously engage in aimless 'casual' chit-chat about the moon landings. And misdirect with silly claims that I wish to discuss Unicorns. What ever it takes to dodge and misdirect. I would invite you for a second time...to directly discuss those 3 analogies.
You dodged the Unicorn analogy. You dodged the "moon landing" analogy. You dodged the "flat earth" analogy.
I invited you to discuss the Unicorn scenario. You then feign misunderstanding and claim "we're not discussing Unicorns". Right. But we are discussing the Unicorn ANALOGY...if you were to choose to cooperate...which you do not.
What these analogies prove is that one can reasonably conclude things without having been personally and physically present. I can reasonably ascertain there are no Unicorns anywhere on earth...without having personally scoured every square inch of earth. I believe one can reasonably ascertain there have been actual moon landings...without having personally traveled to the moon.
I can reasonably ascertain the earth is spherical without having actually traveled to outer space and been able to see the spherical shape myself. And I can reasonably ascertain there are no "Jesus-style" miracles going on...without having attended every single church service worldwide or having seen all 30 million YouTubes.
You have dodged all three of those analogies I provided. Aimlessly chit-chatting about the moon landings, in one instance. It's just bizarre.
Have you ever seen someone who has been stuck in a wheelchair for decades? Their legs are profoundly atrophied. You can spot it from a quarter mile. Have you even seen someone who has been blind for life? Their eyes are utterly dead. You don't need medical expertise to notice their eyes are just plain 'gone'.
Just once...has someone gotten a close-up video of someone fitting those descriptions...being able to instantly leap to their feet with 110% healing of their legs, just like in the Bible? Or just once...a close up video, before and after, of someone with profound life-long blindness...and where you can see that not only do they now have 20/20 vision...but that their eyes are no longer 'dead'. Where you can see their eyes have come back to life?
No. Not once.
And forget plowing through a thousand YouTubes -- why aren't such things being seen on the national TV shows of all these top Pentecostal and Charismatic churches...at least periodically? Just once even. A profoundly paralyzed individual who has utterly obvious and profound atrophy in his legs...leaping to his feet instantly with 110% healing...just like in the Bible?
You have no good answer. I do have the answer: Because this stuff is no longer going on. Just plain, ordinary, garden-variety common sense.
And your utterly counter-biblical idea...that you're not obligated to defend your faith (i.e. your set of beliefs...which includes a belief there are ongoing Jesus-style miracles)...that's just a huge dodge. And so ridiculous.
You try to erect an artificial obstacle in saying it's not your responsibility to plow through thousands of YouTubes in search of evidence. Hey fella, I don't care HOW you come up with a defense for your beliefs...it is STILL your responsibility to defend and reason for...your version of the Christian faith. And to say you're not responsible to do so...I know you don't even believe such nonsense yourself. But alas...you need to run and dodge...so you make whatever outrageous claim is necessary.
And then hilariously engage in aimless 'casual' chit-chat about the moon landings. And misdirect with silly claims that I wish to discuss Unicorns. What ever it takes to dodge and misdirect. I would invite you for a second time...to directly discuss those 3 analogies.
Presidente, just answer the question. MattToFor is simply trying to get a straight answer from you. You on the other hand are dodging and misdirecting. If you cannot defend your beliefs just do what most Pentecostals do and go in the corner and babble. You cannot win this debate because there is no truth in your words. MattToFor has clearly shown your error, if you do not want to accept the truth just stop responding.
It is painful to watch you twist and turn around MattToFor's simple questions. You do not answer because it would destroy your theology.
You have shown zero proof that you or anyone else has any of the supernatural abilities of the 1st Century church. Quoting verses of others in the Bible speaking in tongues does not prove anyone today is speaking in tongues. This is the part you don't seem to grasp. Do your soul a blessing and admit you emperor is naked.
It is painful to watch you twist and turn around MattToFor's simple questions. You do not answer because it would destroy your theology.
You have shown zero proof that you or anyone else has any of the supernatural abilities of the 1st Century church. Quoting verses of others in the Bible speaking in tongues does not prove anyone today is speaking in tongues. This is the part you don't seem to grasp. Do your soul a blessing and admit you emperor is naked.
I didn't dodge your analogies. I didn't agree with you, but that doesn't mean I 'dodged' them. If I were talking to someone who believed in unicorns, I couldn't prove to him they don't exist. Could they exist? Maybe. Me saying that isn't dodging. Why don't you calm down and read what people have to say. If someone disagrees with you, that doesnt mean he's being dishonest or not answering your questions.
You are apparently frustrated that I didn't answer the question the way you wanted. I didn't know you actually had a point beyond ranting and accusing. It's hard to see what your point is with your posting style.
If someone told me there were unicorns because the Bible says so (a KJV-onlyist), I'd agree that there is an animal the KJV calls a 'unicorn' because there is. I forget what we call that thing, now.
Can I prove there are no animals that look just like horses with one horn out of their nose? No. I don't believe there are any animals running around like that. But I"m not going to get bent out of shape over it.
Miracles are different. The Bible doesn't say there are one-horned horses. It does say the Spirit gifts individuals to do miracles. Miracles are also different because there is plenty of evidence for miracles occuring, but not for the types of unicorns you are discussing.
And you picked a rather cumbersome analogy to deal with because the KJV calls a certain animal a unicorn, so unicorns are in the KJV Bible.
Go back and look at that in context. We aren't discussing mythical beasts. We are discussing something that the Bible teaches is real. Try to follow the argument instead of looking for reasons to accuse and be upset. So your analogy doesn't work. The Bible teaches that the Spirit gifts individuals to do miracles.
That's my right. Why are you upset over unicorns? I am answering as best I can. Do you want me to agree that I can prove there are no one-horned horses like in the kids cartoons? No, I can't. I don't believe they exist. But the Bible doesn't teach that there are one-horned horses. There aren't hundreds or thousands of testimonies of miracles of miracles from Biblical times until modern times. (I've been meaning to have a look at that new book Miracles by Keener which cites many historical examples.)
I've answers your unicorn analogy twice. I am sure I have not said whatever you wanted me to say. But do realize that is a normal thing, try not to get upset over it or to start name calling or accusing over it. Take a deep breath. If you have any comments that's okay. It's nothing to get bent out of shape over.
I could also claim there are no duckbilled platypuses. I could do this by not going to the wild in certain parts of Australia, not going to certain sections of certain zoos, avoiding certain web pages, and by calling anyone who claims to have seen one a liar. That is more akin to what you are doing. There is plenty of evidence for supernatural healing. I sent a link to a page that described a study of doctors in which the majority of them claimed that they had witnessed miracles. I suspect you haven't checked out Craig Keener's boore Miracles, a scholarly book of evidence for miracles, before claiming there is none.
The Bible doesn't even say there are duckbilled platypuses. It does teach that the Spirit gifts individuals in the body with certain spiritual gifts. The working of miracles and the gifts of healing are among those gifts. Why don't you believe that. Where is your Biblical evidence that I Corinthians 12 is no longer true.
You are the question dodger. I've asked you that several times. You never answer it.
Is there any common ground here? Do you believe there is any supernatural healing going on? Do you believe people get out of wheelchairs at the laying on of hands, but it can taking them a while to be 100% like the video I pointed you do?
There are a lot of 'Jesus style' miracles. Jesus healed crowds of sick people with a variety of ailments. The Gospels focus on some of them. Some of the people just acted crazy and were healed. Jesus cast the demon out of them. An atheist skeptic could claim that was psychosomatic. He also open blinded eyes. The Pharisees could try to make it look like he wasn't really born blind. They didn't succeed, but those are the excuses that someone with unbelief in his heart could use to reject a true miracle. He also healed a woman bent over for years. The woman with the issue of blood? The skeptic could have said she was lying about that. If there was evidence for her ailment, they could have claimed it was chicken blood, or that she was still sick.
Jesus also spit on a man's eyes and laid hands on him. He saw 'men as trees walking.' A skeptic could have said, "He didn't get healed instantly." and criticized Jesus for laying hands on him a second time, though the critic never healed anyone at all. Jesus sent 10 lepers away who were healed on the way to the priest. Only one came back. Someone could have criticized Jesus for not healing the lepers instantly. The leper could have accused Jesus over it instead of giving thanks. But that type of criticism would have been rather unthankful.
The way you argue this topic is very similar to how an atheist might argue, btw.
I didn't necessarily agree with your premise about the moon landing. That's one conspiracy theory that kind of makes sense given the wasteful money a moon landing takes, the deception used in the cold war, and the implications of a moon landing for the cold war. I don't have a strong opinion either way.
But I answered your analogies. You have nothing to be upset about, unless you are the type to get upset if someone doesn't agree with you.
I mentioned what my undergrad degree is in and you said this is an anonymous forum and I could work at a burger restaurant. Now you have asking me what I have seen? Think through that. You call people dishonest over disagreeing with you, cast suspicion over mundane things like their education or career, and then ask for their experiences over something like this. Let's see if you can resist the urge to call me a liar if I tell you a few things.
I sent you a page full of links of various healings. I have been upfront in our previous conversations about what I've seen as far as healing goes. I believe in more than I've seen because my faith is not limited by my experience. As a child, I saw a fellow student at my school a year ahead of me who had thick coke bottle glasses and severely, obviously crossed eyes. The Christian school as affiliated with what would now be considered a small megachurch, since it had about 3000 people. I went to church. After a meeting an evangelist laid hands on the sick. He walked a woman way down in the front out of a wheelchair. I didn't know the lady. I didn't know if she could walk at all without the wheelchair. Maybe she was healed. I don't know. There was a huge crowd down there being prayed for.
The next day, us kids who got to school early were waiting for the doors of the school to be unlocked and we waited outside as usual. One of them was telling me about the girl in the class a year ahead of me with the crossed eyes and glasses being healed. I went over and talked with her and asked her what happened. It was obvious from looking at her that she had been healed. Her eyes looked normal, where before they were crossed. She wasn't wearing her glasses. She told me about the evangelist laying hands on her and being healed. That was my first experience with a supernatural healing.
I have been in meetings where people have claimed to hear out of previously deaf ears. I didn't know the people or test their hearing. I've seen a few other things. Have I seen someone I know personally get out of a wheelchair after years? No. I could find videos or eye-witnesses testimony of such things, but I haven't seen it first hand. I haven't seen someone raised from the dead like Lazarus, but I believe it can happen because of what the Bible teaches.
My beliefs on this are not limited by my experiences, because the Bible teaches things that go beyond my personal experience.
The Bible shows us that God does miracles and that the Spirit gifts individuals with working of miracles, gifts of healing, etc. as he wills. Modernistic philosophy doesn't allow for that. Atheists generally don't believe miracles happen. There is an anti-supernatural worldview that one can pick up from people who believe some of the current philosophies of this present evil age, especially the prevailing philosophies from when you were a child. Where do you get your worldview and belief system from when it comes to this topic, the Bible, or from this present evil age? You certainly aren't showing anything in the Bible for your belief that God does not do miracles.
I have scarcely watched those type of American TV shows in 20 years. I have spent much of my life overseas. Some of the reports of these things related to these types of miracles from 'frontier areas' of the Gospel, which makes sense Biblically. There is a style of crusade that has people pray for themselves or each other, then give testimonies in the front. Benny Hinn does that. Aside from theological issues, speaking of 20 or 30 years ago when I saw him on TV, he doesn't use a very critical process for evaluating of people have been healed. Some people see that and it makes them more skeptical. That should effect our understanding of the Bible, though. It seems like there are more healings through the laying on of hands in YouTube videos than on TV, at least compared to my experience with American Christian television.
You move the bar. I presented Delia Knox as a case of a documented healing. You maligned the character of the preacher who prayed for her and complained about her hobbling a bit after 22 years in a wheelchair. Her case is enough to rebutt a claim that there is no supernatural healing going on through the laying on of hands in the name of Jesus. If someone showed you a video of a similar healing where the handicapped person were much frailer, but was jumping up and down in two seconds, would you really accept that as evidence, or at least hold off on objections until you had investigated it? Or would you automatically accuse those involved in it of fraud?
The issue is your heart, not the evidence. We have plenty of evidence of what the range of our expectations should be in the Bible. The problem is that you do not accept that.
You are apparently frustrated that I didn't answer the question the way you wanted. I didn't know you actually had a point beyond ranting and accusing. It's hard to see what your point is with your posting style.
If someone told me there were unicorns because the Bible says so (a KJV-onlyist), I'd agree that there is an animal the KJV calls a 'unicorn' because there is. I forget what we call that thing, now.
Can I prove there are no animals that look just like horses with one horn out of their nose? No. I don't believe there are any animals running around like that. But I"m not going to get bent out of shape over it.
Miracles are different. The Bible doesn't say there are one-horned horses. It does say the Spirit gifts individuals to do miracles. Miracles are also different because there is plenty of evidence for miracles occuring, but not for the types of unicorns you are discussing.
And you picked a rather cumbersome analogy to deal with because the KJV calls a certain animal a unicorn, so unicorns are in the KJV Bible.
Go back and look at that in context. We aren't discussing mythical beasts. We are discussing something that the Bible teaches is real. Try to follow the argument instead of looking for reasons to accuse and be upset. So your analogy doesn't work. The Bible teaches that the Spirit gifts individuals to do miracles.
That's my right. Why are you upset over unicorns? I am answering as best I can. Do you want me to agree that I can prove there are no one-horned horses like in the kids cartoons? No, I can't. I don't believe they exist. But the Bible doesn't teach that there are one-horned horses. There aren't hundreds or thousands of testimonies of miracles of miracles from Biblical times until modern times. (I've been meaning to have a look at that new book Miracles by Keener which cites many historical examples.)
I've answers your unicorn analogy twice. I am sure I have not said whatever you wanted me to say. But do realize that is a normal thing, try not to get upset over it or to start name calling or accusing over it. Take a deep breath. If you have any comments that's okay. It's nothing to get bent out of shape over.
I could also claim there are no duckbilled platypuses. I could do this by not going to the wild in certain parts of Australia, not going to certain sections of certain zoos, avoiding certain web pages, and by calling anyone who claims to have seen one a liar. That is more akin to what you are doing. There is plenty of evidence for supernatural healing. I sent a link to a page that described a study of doctors in which the majority of them claimed that they had witnessed miracles. I suspect you haven't checked out Craig Keener's boore Miracles, a scholarly book of evidence for miracles, before claiming there is none.
The Bible doesn't even say there are duckbilled platypuses. It does teach that the Spirit gifts individuals in the body with certain spiritual gifts. The working of miracles and the gifts of healing are among those gifts. Why don't you believe that. Where is your Biblical evidence that I Corinthians 12 is no longer true.
You are the question dodger. I've asked you that several times. You never answer it.
Is there any common ground here? Do you believe there is any supernatural healing going on? Do you believe people get out of wheelchairs at the laying on of hands, but it can taking them a while to be 100% like the video I pointed you do?
There are a lot of 'Jesus style' miracles. Jesus healed crowds of sick people with a variety of ailments. The Gospels focus on some of them. Some of the people just acted crazy and were healed. Jesus cast the demon out of them. An atheist skeptic could claim that was psychosomatic. He also open blinded eyes. The Pharisees could try to make it look like he wasn't really born blind. They didn't succeed, but those are the excuses that someone with unbelief in his heart could use to reject a true miracle. He also healed a woman bent over for years. The woman with the issue of blood? The skeptic could have said she was lying about that. If there was evidence for her ailment, they could have claimed it was chicken blood, or that she was still sick.
Jesus also spit on a man's eyes and laid hands on him. He saw 'men as trees walking.' A skeptic could have said, "He didn't get healed instantly." and criticized Jesus for laying hands on him a second time, though the critic never healed anyone at all. Jesus sent 10 lepers away who were healed on the way to the priest. Only one came back. Someone could have criticized Jesus for not healing the lepers instantly. The leper could have accused Jesus over it instead of giving thanks. But that type of criticism would have been rather unthankful.
The way you argue this topic is very similar to how an atheist might argue, btw.
I didn't necessarily agree with your premise about the moon landing. That's one conspiracy theory that kind of makes sense given the wasteful money a moon landing takes, the deception used in the cold war, and the implications of a moon landing for the cold war. I don't have a strong opinion either way.
But I answered your analogies. You have nothing to be upset about, unless you are the type to get upset if someone doesn't agree with you.
I mentioned what my undergrad degree is in and you said this is an anonymous forum and I could work at a burger restaurant. Now you have asking me what I have seen? Think through that. You call people dishonest over disagreeing with you, cast suspicion over mundane things like their education or career, and then ask for their experiences over something like this. Let's see if you can resist the urge to call me a liar if I tell you a few things.
I sent you a page full of links of various healings. I have been upfront in our previous conversations about what I've seen as far as healing goes. I believe in more than I've seen because my faith is not limited by my experience. As a child, I saw a fellow student at my school a year ahead of me who had thick coke bottle glasses and severely, obviously crossed eyes. The Christian school as affiliated with what would now be considered a small megachurch, since it had about 3000 people. I went to church. After a meeting an evangelist laid hands on the sick. He walked a woman way down in the front out of a wheelchair. I didn't know the lady. I didn't know if she could walk at all without the wheelchair. Maybe she was healed. I don't know. There was a huge crowd down there being prayed for.
The next day, us kids who got to school early were waiting for the doors of the school to be unlocked and we waited outside as usual. One of them was telling me about the girl in the class a year ahead of me with the crossed eyes and glasses being healed. I went over and talked with her and asked her what happened. It was obvious from looking at her that she had been healed. Her eyes looked normal, where before they were crossed. She wasn't wearing her glasses. She told me about the evangelist laying hands on her and being healed. That was my first experience with a supernatural healing.
I have been in meetings where people have claimed to hear out of previously deaf ears. I didn't know the people or test their hearing. I've seen a few other things. Have I seen someone I know personally get out of a wheelchair after years? No. I could find videos or eye-witnesses testimony of such things, but I haven't seen it first hand. I haven't seen someone raised from the dead like Lazarus, but I believe it can happen because of what the Bible teaches.
My beliefs on this are not limited by my experiences, because the Bible teaches things that go beyond my personal experience.
The Bible shows us that God does miracles and that the Spirit gifts individuals with working of miracles, gifts of healing, etc. as he wills. Modernistic philosophy doesn't allow for that. Atheists generally don't believe miracles happen. There is an anti-supernatural worldview that one can pick up from people who believe some of the current philosophies of this present evil age, especially the prevailing philosophies from when you were a child. Where do you get your worldview and belief system from when it comes to this topic, the Bible, or from this present evil age? You certainly aren't showing anything in the Bible for your belief that God does not do miracles.
I have scarcely watched those type of American TV shows in 20 years. I have spent much of my life overseas. Some of the reports of these things related to these types of miracles from 'frontier areas' of the Gospel, which makes sense Biblically. There is a style of crusade that has people pray for themselves or each other, then give testimonies in the front. Benny Hinn does that. Aside from theological issues, speaking of 20 or 30 years ago when I saw him on TV, he doesn't use a very critical process for evaluating of people have been healed. Some people see that and it makes them more skeptical. That should effect our understanding of the Bible, though. It seems like there are more healings through the laying on of hands in YouTube videos than on TV, at least compared to my experience with American Christian television.
You move the bar. I presented Delia Knox as a case of a documented healing. You maligned the character of the preacher who prayed for her and complained about her hobbling a bit after 22 years in a wheelchair. Her case is enough to rebutt a claim that there is no supernatural healing going on through the laying on of hands in the name of Jesus. If someone showed you a video of a similar healing where the handicapped person were much frailer, but was jumping up and down in two seconds, would you really accept that as evidence, or at least hold off on objections until you had investigated it? Or would you automatically accuse those involved in it of fraud?
The issue is your heart, not the evidence. We have plenty of evidence of what the range of our expectations should be in the Bible. The problem is that you do not accept that.
I don't get how anyone can read MattTooFor's posts and come to that conclusion. Of course, you probably haven't seen the whole story, how I've posted other information to him in the past and how he accused people. I've seen some of your posts--which seem to be more blowing off steam than making a point from my perspective. Maybe you two are on the same wavelength so to speak, and I'm on a different one. Maybe you get each other.
Be that as it may, I answered his unicorn analogy. I don't agree with his conclusion. I have no reason to get bent out of shape arguing are no unicorns of the mythical variety. I can't prove that. I can say that I have found no evidence for it and point to the lack of evidence. Miracles is different because there are thousands of accounts of miracles, a recent book by a seminary professor dealing with documentation of miracles throughout history, etc. The Bible also teaches that the Spirit gifts individuals to do miracles. The analogy is a poorn one because the KJV uses 'unicorn' for a certain animal.
Have you read Miracles by Craig Keener? Have you spent any time looking up healings on YouTube? If you haven't examined evidence, that doesn't mean no evidence exists. Rejecting the existence of miracles is based on world view, not evidence.
That's looks rather ridiculous from my perspective. But your approach to the subject seems similar to his, so maybe you see it that way.
MattTooFor and I had a conversation in another thread. I posted a link Delia Knox healing. She'd been in a wheelchair for 22 years because of a brain injury. She was a gospel singer, and there was a news piece on the gospel singer in the wheelchair that documented her injury back when she couldn't walk. She didn't walk perfectly at first, but she did walk with some help. Within a relatively short period of time, she was able to walk on her own. When she went to her home town, the local news did a piece on her, showing a clip of her healing and showing her walk up the steps of the front porch to her parents to visit the first time that she could walk after 22 years. I found all these clips on YouTube, including clips of her singing from a wheelchair.
MattTooFor's responses was to mock and accuse the preacher who prayed for her. There are a number of reasonable responses one could make, possibly acknowledge God was doing some kinds of instant healings at the laying on of hands these days, be quiet and examine the evidence. But mocking and accusing isn't one of them.
Jesus is my King. Be careful what you say about Him. I don't have a clip of tongues in a language I can understand. Someone posted a link to a YouTube audio clip from the 1990's, I think, of a Polish girl praying in tongues in English. I didn't have background information to verify it. I know people who have recognized speaking in tongues in their own language, and I know of historical eye-witness testimony. Recognizing the language isn't necessary to make speaking in tongues legitimate. It was not necessary in I Corinthians 14.
From the Bible, I can show that the Spirit gifts individuals with the I Corinthians 12 gifts as He wills. There aren't any prooftexts that can be interpreted to do away with the gifts of the working of miracles or gifts of healings. The issue is a Biblical one.
If you really believed the Bible on this issue, at the very least you would acknowledge that the Spirit may give this gift as He chooses, and you shouldn't, theologically, be opposed to the idea that such things could happen today. Wouldn't you agree? Would you agree that all Christians, including MattTooFor, should hold to the same viewpoint because it is taught in scripture?
Be that as it may, I answered his unicorn analogy. I don't agree with his conclusion. I have no reason to get bent out of shape arguing are no unicorns of the mythical variety. I can't prove that. I can say that I have found no evidence for it and point to the lack of evidence. Miracles is different because there are thousands of accounts of miracles, a recent book by a seminary professor dealing with documentation of miracles throughout history, etc. The Bible also teaches that the Spirit gifts individuals to do miracles. The analogy is a poorn one because the KJV uses 'unicorn' for a certain animal.
Have you read Miracles by Craig Keener? Have you spent any time looking up healings on YouTube? If you haven't examined evidence, that doesn't mean no evidence exists. Rejecting the existence of miracles is based on world view, not evidence.
That's looks rather ridiculous from my perspective. But your approach to the subject seems similar to his, so maybe you see it that way.
MattTooFor and I had a conversation in another thread. I posted a link Delia Knox healing. She'd been in a wheelchair for 22 years because of a brain injury. She was a gospel singer, and there was a news piece on the gospel singer in the wheelchair that documented her injury back when she couldn't walk. She didn't walk perfectly at first, but she did walk with some help. Within a relatively short period of time, she was able to walk on her own. When she went to her home town, the local news did a piece on her, showing a clip of her healing and showing her walk up the steps of the front porch to her parents to visit the first time that she could walk after 22 years. I found all these clips on YouTube, including clips of her singing from a wheelchair.
MattTooFor's responses was to mock and accuse the preacher who prayed for her. There are a number of reasonable responses one could make, possibly acknowledge God was doing some kinds of instant healings at the laying on of hands these days, be quiet and examine the evidence. But mocking and accusing isn't one of them.
Jesus is my King. Be careful what you say about Him. I don't have a clip of tongues in a language I can understand. Someone posted a link to a YouTube audio clip from the 1990's, I think, of a Polish girl praying in tongues in English. I didn't have background information to verify it. I know people who have recognized speaking in tongues in their own language, and I know of historical eye-witness testimony. Recognizing the language isn't necessary to make speaking in tongues legitimate. It was not necessary in I Corinthians 14.
From the Bible, I can show that the Spirit gifts individuals with the I Corinthians 12 gifts as He wills. There aren't any prooftexts that can be interpreted to do away with the gifts of the working of miracles or gifts of healings. The issue is a Biblical one.
If you really believed the Bible on this issue, at the very least you would acknowledge that the Spirit may give this gift as He chooses, and you shouldn't, theologically, be opposed to the idea that such things could happen today. Wouldn't you agree? Would you agree that all Christians, including MattTooFor, should hold to the same viewpoint because it is taught in scripture?
M
OK so...here you are finally NOT dodging the Unicorn analogy...and are also now revealing you have an absolutely absurd view. With your position, NOTHING can be proven to within reason...if it is something outside of someone's direct view. So, creation can't be ascertained within a reasonable, believable degree. Noah's flood..the same thing. The resurrection...the same thing. On and on.
That is dishonest conjecture for the sake of being patronizing. Who said I was "upset"? Or how and when did you see me "upset"? Set aside your "bare assertion" psychoanalysis and just have a discussion, if you wouldn't mind.
Well no, it's just that you dodged the analogies...but now you've addressed at least one of the analogies...and you're trying simultaneously to now 'lecture' me about my previous (and accurate) observation that you had dodged the analogies - LOL. You're a piece of work. Wow.
What...in THE world...are you chit-chatting about again? What does a Bible reference have to do with the fact that any normal-thinking person realizes there are no unicorns in the world today? Why do you embark on these useless, weird, nonsensical tangents?
Oh my goodness - LOL. What's with these dishonest, patronizing references to being "upset"? And why such a weird assertion...that you don't have to discuss the analogy. What does that even mean? You HAVE now discussed the analogy. And your answer reveals an absolutely bizarre worldview that negates Christian apologetics and negates ANY investigation that relies on ANYTHING other than direct personal contact.
Wow. Are you under the impression you've actually concealed your condescending arrogance? How much more psychobabble is in store for the rest of your post? I'm excited to read on, LOL.
Is that another dodge from you? I have said over and over and over and over...I am NOT talking about, for example, elders anointing with oil and praying for healing from cancer. Those things ARE happening all day long. What is NOT happening is what I have described to you over and over -- Jesus-style miracles. A guy stuck in a wheelchair for forty years...or stone-blind for life...with plainly visible atrophying of the limbs and plainly visible 'dead eyes'.
No that is NOT what I am doing. And we're back to this Unicorn analogy...where you think it is impossible to execute a reasonably thorough research of the world we live in and make a reasonably certain determination there are no Unicorns. That's a "critical thinking" problem I cannot help you with.
I don't happily make a statement like that but...when someone says they can't prove to a reasonable degree there are no Unicorns...that is completely and totally "off the reservation". That's waaay out there. It just proves how far you're willing to go to defend your tongues-speaking views. I don't believe even YOU believe one can't reasonably disprove Unicorns. Oh well.
No, I do not. Theists use logic, reason and evidence. Atheists use illogic. And atheists can't even examine so much as a quadrillionth of the universe. By contrast, I have a reasonable opportunity to come to a reasonably certain conclusion there are no Unicorns on earth and no Jesus-style miracles. Again, the critical thinking skills are not working. Don't know how else to word it.
What in the world are you talking about here? I have no idea. I asked you if you had ever seen profoundly crippled or blinded people. So what? Almost anyone has seen that. How are you missing my point, LOL? I wouldn't doubt you've seen crippled people. One doesn't need a "college education" to see crippled people. What in the world, fella?
Well, you wouldn't need to monitor all those programs. If anything HAD happened at any of those church services (and it hasn't)...it would be on YouTube with 50 million "views".
This is where I am seeing you don't understand there is a very valid and effective process whereby we can conduct a very systematic and reasonably thorough worldwide search of the available evidence...OR LACK THEREOF.
I believe the Information Age is divine providence for the last days...so that God's people have a reasonable opportunity to debunk all the emerging deception and fakery in the church world these days. BUT...most will be deceived. And most in the church world ARE deceived.
By the way, I don't see you warning ANYONE about anything or any false prophets. You've tied your own hands with your own pseudo-rules about pointing out dangerous 'false teachers'. Good thing for Paul you weren't there when he busted Peter for his false teaching. You would've charged Paul with "slander" and told him he was headed for the "hottest parts of Hell" and told him he was a satanic "accuser of the brethren". Ouch.
Where and when were you going to boldly warn people about all the super-popular super-pastors on the scene today? Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, on and on. Or do you not recognize any of these false prophets?
I never moved any bar. It's always been about "Jesus-style" miracles. The healer guy's behavior was inappropriate. He is deliberately kicking up dust, creating emotional hoopla and manipulation. The classic "traveling salvation show" barnstorming nonsense. To me, it is highly inappropriate and unseemly. I also saw what appeared to be fake miracles and I also saw people undergoing this ultra-creepy 'VooDoo shaking'.
Because you do not understand nor accept that many witches and warlocks have infiltrated the conservative church world...therefore, it doesn't fit into your head there are these false prophets operating undercover.
A pastor friend of mine who I have since helped to "convert" away from Pentecostal/Charismatic practices, first began to realize something was waaay wrong...when he was completely healed of a rather serious case of "athlete's foot" at a Benny Hinn convention. Through discussions with me and doing some of his own reading, he had begun to realize Hinn shows many signs of explicit Luciferian devotion, along with massive and consistent moral failure in his life (not to mention his fleet of private jets, private yachts and super-mansions!). So...when he received this creepy unasked-for "healing", it creeped him out big time and he left that whole scene behind once-for-all.
That is dishonest conjecture for the sake of being patronizing. Who said I was "upset"? Or how and when did you see me "upset"? Set aside your "bare assertion" psychoanalysis and just have a discussion, if you wouldn't mind.
Well no, it's just that you dodged the analogies...but now you've addressed at least one of the analogies...and you're trying simultaneously to now 'lecture' me about my previous (and accurate) observation that you had dodged the analogies - LOL. You're a piece of work. Wow.
What...in THE world...are you chit-chatting about again? What does a Bible reference have to do with the fact that any normal-thinking person realizes there are no unicorns in the world today? Why do you embark on these useless, weird, nonsensical tangents?
Oh my goodness - LOL. What's with these dishonest, patronizing references to being "upset"? And why such a weird assertion...that you don't have to discuss the analogy. What does that even mean? You HAVE now discussed the analogy. And your answer reveals an absolutely bizarre worldview that negates Christian apologetics and negates ANY investigation that relies on ANYTHING other than direct personal contact.
Wow. Are you under the impression you've actually concealed your condescending arrogance? How much more psychobabble is in store for the rest of your post? I'm excited to read on, LOL.
Is that another dodge from you? I have said over and over and over and over...I am NOT talking about, for example, elders anointing with oil and praying for healing from cancer. Those things ARE happening all day long. What is NOT happening is what I have described to you over and over -- Jesus-style miracles. A guy stuck in a wheelchair for forty years...or stone-blind for life...with plainly visible atrophying of the limbs and plainly visible 'dead eyes'.
No that is NOT what I am doing. And we're back to this Unicorn analogy...where you think it is impossible to execute a reasonably thorough research of the world we live in and make a reasonably certain determination there are no Unicorns. That's a "critical thinking" problem I cannot help you with.
I don't happily make a statement like that but...when someone says they can't prove to a reasonable degree there are no Unicorns...that is completely and totally "off the reservation". That's waaay out there. It just proves how far you're willing to go to defend your tongues-speaking views. I don't believe even YOU believe one can't reasonably disprove Unicorns. Oh well.
No, I do not. Theists use logic, reason and evidence. Atheists use illogic. And atheists can't even examine so much as a quadrillionth of the universe. By contrast, I have a reasonable opportunity to come to a reasonably certain conclusion there are no Unicorns on earth and no Jesus-style miracles. Again, the critical thinking skills are not working. Don't know how else to word it.
What in the world are you talking about here? I have no idea. I asked you if you had ever seen profoundly crippled or blinded people. So what? Almost anyone has seen that. How are you missing my point, LOL? I wouldn't doubt you've seen crippled people. One doesn't need a "college education" to see crippled people. What in the world, fella?
Well, you wouldn't need to monitor all those programs. If anything HAD happened at any of those church services (and it hasn't)...it would be on YouTube with 50 million "views".
This is where I am seeing you don't understand there is a very valid and effective process whereby we can conduct a very systematic and reasonably thorough worldwide search of the available evidence...OR LACK THEREOF.
I believe the Information Age is divine providence for the last days...so that God's people have a reasonable opportunity to debunk all the emerging deception and fakery in the church world these days. BUT...most will be deceived. And most in the church world ARE deceived.
By the way, I don't see you warning ANYONE about anything or any false prophets. You've tied your own hands with your own pseudo-rules about pointing out dangerous 'false teachers'. Good thing for Paul you weren't there when he busted Peter for his false teaching. You would've charged Paul with "slander" and told him he was headed for the "hottest parts of Hell" and told him he was a satanic "accuser of the brethren". Ouch.
Where and when were you going to boldly warn people about all the super-popular super-pastors on the scene today? Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, on and on. Or do you not recognize any of these false prophets?
I never moved any bar. It's always been about "Jesus-style" miracles. The healer guy's behavior was inappropriate. He is deliberately kicking up dust, creating emotional hoopla and manipulation. The classic "traveling salvation show" barnstorming nonsense. To me, it is highly inappropriate and unseemly. I also saw what appeared to be fake miracles and I also saw people undergoing this ultra-creepy 'VooDoo shaking'.
Because you do not understand nor accept that many witches and warlocks have infiltrated the conservative church world...therefore, it doesn't fit into your head there are these false prophets operating undercover.
A pastor friend of mine who I have since helped to "convert" away from Pentecostal/Charismatic practices, first began to realize something was waaay wrong...when he was completely healed of a rather serious case of "athlete's foot" at a Benny Hinn convention. Through discussions with me and doing some of his own reading, he had begun to realize Hinn shows many signs of explicit Luciferian devotion, along with massive and consistent moral failure in his life (not to mention his fleet of private jets, private yachts and super-mansions!). So...when he received this creepy unasked-for "healing", it creeped him out big time and he left that whole scene behind once-for-all.
M
Wow. That's an amazingly dishonest fabrication. And an inappropriately threatening 'tone', on top of that! Wow, again.
He never said anything about Jesus the King. He is referring to the story of "The Emperor's New Who Clothes"...and you know it.
At this point, you're wasting everyone's time. You sit there next to your naked emperor, wagging a reproving finger as if WE'RE the ones who have been caught with out hand in the False Claims Cookie Jar. No, YOU are the one bereft of valid claims. Where you get the nerve, I have no idea.
Opposed? there you go again with the straw me. No one is "opposed". There's nothing to be "opposed" to.
And not everyone interprets the Bible to your liking. Many people disagree with Pentecostal interpretations.
Yes, there are, actually.
DJ2...FYI, here was my response about that situation:
He never said anything about Jesus the King. He is referring to the story of "The Emperor's New Who Clothes"...and you know it.
At this point, you're wasting everyone's time. You sit there next to your naked emperor, wagging a reproving finger as if WE'RE the ones who have been caught with out hand in the False Claims Cookie Jar. No, YOU are the one bereft of valid claims. Where you get the nerve, I have no idea.
Opposed? there you go again with the straw me. No one is "opposed". There's nothing to be "opposed" to.
And not everyone interprets the Bible to your liking. Many people disagree with Pentecostal interpretations.
Yes, there are, actually.
DJ2...FYI, here was my response about that situation:
M
Wow. That's an amazingly dishonest fabrication. And an inappropriately threatening 'tone', on top of that! Wow, again.
He never said anything about Jesus the King. He is referring to the story of "The Emperor's New Who Clothes"...and you know it.
At this point, you're wasting everyone's time. You sit there next to your naked emperor, wagging a reproving finger as if WE'RE the ones who have been caught with out hand in the False Claims Cookie Jar. No, YOU are the one bereft of valid claims. Where you get the nerve, I have no idea.
Opposed? there you go again with the straw me. No one is "opposed". There's nothing to be "opposed" to.
And not everyone interprets the Bible to your liking. Many people disagree with Pentecostal interpretations.
Yes, there are, actually.
DJ2...FYI, here was my response about that situation:
He never said anything about Jesus the King. He is referring to the story of "The Emperor's New Who Clothes"...and you know it.
At this point, you're wasting everyone's time. You sit there next to your naked emperor, wagging a reproving finger as if WE'RE the ones who have been caught with out hand in the False Claims Cookie Jar. No, YOU are the one bereft of valid claims. Where you get the nerve, I have no idea.
Opposed? there you go again with the straw me. No one is "opposed". There's nothing to be "opposed" to.
And not everyone interprets the Bible to your liking. Many people disagree with Pentecostal interpretations.
Yes, there are, actually.
DJ2...FYI, here was my response about that situation:
MattTooFor
This is your response to 'Jesus is my King'.
Readers can see the rest of the context above.
Your responses are vile. You accuse people based on nothing. Maybe you think nothing of it. But men will give account for every idle word on the day of judgment, including slander, accusing the brethren, etc.
We've all heard the story about the emporer's new clothes. We all know the context of the comments. This isn't dishonesty.
I can disagree and discuss this issue and other issues. I have with people on this site without it turning into the type of bad conversation that I experience with you. Something is wrong with you.
You didn't post all the comments you made about the preacher that prayed for the woman. Jesus went into synagogues and spoke and people manifested demons at times. Your blaming a preacher for reactions of people when he prays based on whatever videos you saw.
The Bible doesn't teach 'thou shalt not stir up emotions.' Emotions are okay. Provoking to jealousy is stirring up an emotion. Leading someone to godly sorry is stirring up emotion. Telling the congregation to rejoice like the Psalms do is stirring up emotion.
This is your response to 'Jesus is my King'.
Readers can see the rest of the context above.
Your responses are vile. You accuse people based on nothing. Maybe you think nothing of it. But men will give account for every idle word on the day of judgment, including slander, accusing the brethren, etc.
We've all heard the story about the emporer's new clothes. We all know the context of the comments. This isn't dishonesty.
I can disagree and discuss this issue and other issues. I have with people on this site without it turning into the type of bad conversation that I experience with you. Something is wrong with you.
You didn't post all the comments you made about the preacher that prayed for the woman. Jesus went into synagogues and spoke and people manifested demons at times. Your blaming a preacher for reactions of people when he prays based on whatever videos you saw.
The Bible doesn't teach 'thou shalt not stir up emotions.' Emotions are okay. Provoking to jealousy is stirring up an emotion. Leading someone to godly sorry is stirring up emotion. Telling the congregation to rejoice like the Psalms do is stirring up emotion.
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