An Introduction to the Doctrines of Grace: Limited Atonement

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#61
#61
ForthAngel said:
You're adding to John 6. Read the verses directly after the one you are quoting here about them not believing. Jesus goes on to show they don't believe because they are not drawn by the Father.
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Yeah, so God allowed them to go to hell, and never gave them a chance, yet Jesus said he willed for all Israel to be saved, he could draw them like a mother hen draws her chicks, but it was not because he was unwilling, it was because they were unwilling.

you all take the reknowledge and omniscience out of the equation. I d not draw people to me I know want nothing to do with me, and I am not God, yet we see it in practice, God knows who are his, and draws them. NOT because they are special people but because God d knows they will respond, he called many, but few are chosen, because only a few believe
 
ForthAngel

ForthAngel

Senior Member
#62
Aug 31, 2012
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#62
eternally-gratefull said:
i agree, and I also knows he only draws those he knows will accept, yet all others have no excuse, because they know they are in sin and guilty,, because nothing God could do would change their. Ind, they loved their sin, not god.
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If God only draws those he knows will accept, then his drawing is pointless isn't it? That's a paradoxical statement. How do you reconcile that with say, Romans 9, or this from John 1?

9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people[c] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
 
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SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
#63
Dec 28, 2016
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#63
notuptome said:
When all else fails resort to character assassination and attack the poster.

Faith does not come from natural revelation but Romans 1 teaches that all men are without excuse.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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I was not seeking to assassinate your character and forgive me for my postings coming off that way. Its not my intent. Ppl are w/o excuse because they know God exists, but by them not worshipping the Son, the One they do not know exists, makes them condemned.

And those who come believe He is a Rewarder of them that seek Him.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#64
#64
SovereignGrace said:
Brother, He knows none will accept Him in their fallen state. You have Him drawing those He knows who will accept Him makes His offer to them a debt and not grace.
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No no it is grace, because they are fallen, and do not deserve it, you have God making people alive before their sin is found given, thats against gods word, we are born again because we believe in the name, not to believe in the name
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
#65
Dec 28, 2016
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#65
eternally-gratefull said:
No no it is grace, because they are fallen, and do not deserve it, you have God making people alive before their sin is found given, thats against gods word, we are born again because we believe in the name, not to believe in the name
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Regeneration precedes faith. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and no lost person has the fruit of the Spirit. They are born again, saved at the same time.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#66
May 17, 2013
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#66
ForthAngel said:
Do you believe these verses were meant for the Apostles only?

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”


41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

And if so, were the Apostles given a choice? Or did God cause them to come to him by effectually drawing them?
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Of course they had a choice. Are you stating that the "effectual drawing" could not be resisted?

Most of the disciples in John 6 left Jesus when He told them of His need to die on Calvary. I do not contest the need for God to draw men to His Son to be saved. What I reject is the Calvinist contention that the drawing is not all men but only the elect few. According to John 1 every man that has come into the world is Lighted by Christ. Some turn from it and others turn toward it. On the crosses to either side of Christ were two malefactors one who sought mercy from Christ and another who sought to manipulate Christ. Gods foreknowledge does not act to predetermine who will and who will not receive Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#67
#67
ForthAngel said:
If God only draws those he knows will accept, then his drawing is pointless isn't it?
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not only is it not pointless, it goes with his character, God wants a relationship with his children, you can only do this with those who want also to have this relationship.

you can not have a relationship with people who never desired it

That's a paradoxical statement. How do you reconcile that with say, Romans 9, or this from John 1?

9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people[c] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
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he answered you, you highlighted the wrong part,

he gave the the right to those who believed, I did not will myself to salvation, and no one else could will me either

what was gods will? Again john 3 and 6, it was his will that whoever believed would never perish but have eternal life and never hunger r thirst or diet and be risen on the last day.

as for Romans 9, we do not agree with th context, I do not take your fatalistic view of romans 9
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#68
#68
SovereignGrace said:
Regeneration precedes faith. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and no lost person has the fruit of the Spirit. They are born again, saved at the same time.
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thats impossible, you have a man dead in sin being made alive (regenerated) While still in his sin, justification MUST precede regeneration,

Our faith is gods work not our own, so it is not a work at all, you can not boast in the fact you allowed god to save you because you were completely hopeless in yourself
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#69
#69
Grandpa said:
I'm not doing it.

I'm just showing that people really do agree with limited atonement.

Its election they don't like.
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I disagree, I love election, god chose me from the foundation of the earth,

i reject limited atonement, because it showed favoritism, no matter how people try to excuse it away and say it does not
 
ForthAngel

ForthAngel

Senior Member
#70
Aug 31, 2012
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#70
notuptome said:
Of course they had a choice. Are you stating that the "effectual drawing" could not be resisted?

Most of the disciples in John 6 left Jesus when He told them of His need to die on Calvary. I do not contest the need for God to draw men to His Son to be saved. What I reject is the Calvinist contention that the drawing is not all men but only the elect few. According to John 1 every man that has come into the world is Lighted by Christ. Some turn from it and others turn toward it. On the crosses to either side of Christ were two malefactors one who sought mercy from Christ and another who sought to manipulate Christ. Gods foreknowledge does not act to predetermine who will and who will not receive Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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It couldn't be resisted no. Jesus makes that claim. All who are drawn will come to him and all who come to him he will raise up. All that he raises up will have eternal life. He didn't present a maybe, maybe not scenario. He made a statement of fact. All who are drawn will come to him. This has to be reconciled with him saying he will draw all men to him. In context, he is speaking of the grafting in of the gentiles, not Jews only. All men, as in people groups, subsets. Or else the only alternative is universalism, which we can see clearly that not all follow him, therefore all can't be drawn to him, or all would come to him. Jesus made that claim. So either he wasn't telling the truth, or mankind has the ability to thwart God's plans. Or both.

What I would ask now, is how do you describe election and predestination in the bible? The same as most others, that God foreknows who will choose him, so he, in reaction to their choice, chooses them? Also, did God know beforehand before anyone was created who would be saved and who wouldn't? If so, you will have to concede that he created everything anyway. In turn, there is no other possible outcome in creation than the course that has already been set in God's mind in eternity past. If you think God didn't know the end from the beginning, then what is your explanation? God learned after creation and made his choices based on this newfound knowledge?

I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.
 
ForthAngel

ForthAngel

Senior Member
#71
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
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#71
eternally-gratefull said:
not only is it not pointless, it goes with his character, God wants a relationship with his children, you can only do this with those who want also to have this relationship.

you can not have a relationship with people who never desired it



he answered you, you highlighted the wrong part,

he gave the the right to those who believed, I did not will myself to salvation, and no one else could will me either

what was gods will? Again john 3 and 6, it was his will that whoever believed would never perish but have eternal life and never hunger r thirst or diet and be risen on the last day.

as for Romans 9, we do not agree with th context, I do not take your fatalistic view of romans 9
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I highlighted the correct part of John 1. Those who believe are not born by the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God. The work is all God. Man can do nothing to save himself, including the ability to come to God unless first drawn. And we will go full circle here again. None can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, and those who are drawn, by Jesus' own admission, will come to him, and those who come to him he will not cast out, and those he will not cast out he will raise up, and those he will raise up will have eternal life. Therefore, not all men are drawn or else all men would be saved. The right is given to those who believe, and those who believe are born of God, not by their will. Romans 9 also confirms this.
 
ForthAngel

ForthAngel

Senior Member
#72
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
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#72
eternally-gratefull said:
thats impossible, you have a man dead in sin being made alive (regenerated) While still in his sin, justification MUST precede regeneration,

Our faith is gods work not our own, so it is not a work at all, you can not boast in the fact you allowed god to save you because you were completely hopeless in yourself
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If faith is the gift of God, then why don't all believe? That gift must be given to only those of God's choosing or else all would believe..
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#73
#73
ForthAngel said:
I highlighted the correct part of John 1. Those who believe are not born by the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God. The work is all God. Man can do nothing to save himself, including the ability to come to God unless first drawn. And we will go full circle here again. None can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, and those who are drawn, by Jesus' own admission, will come to him, and those who come to him he will not cast out, and those he will not cast out he will raise up, and those he will raise up will have eternal life. Therefore, not all men are drawn or else all men would be saved. The right is given to those who believe, and those who believe are born of God, not by their will. Romans 9 also confirms this.
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No, you go red the most important part of john 1, and are trying to force t on me, no thank you,

god gave those who who believe in his name the right to become children of God,

not OT from the will of man means our parents, pastors, spouses, children etc can. OT will us to be saved, only God can

again, I can. Not will myself to be saved, even the thought is quite ridiculous if you think of it. God has to will me to be saved, but he will not force it on me, he just wants me to say yes.

i can not boast in saying yes, I am totally hopeless, a sinner a d deserving of hell, please god, you must save me, for I can. Not save myself. No on can boast in that
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#74
#74
ForthAngel said:
If faith is the gift of God, then why don't all believe? That gift must be given to only those of God's choosing or else all would believe..
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Why don't they all believe? Romans 1 answers that

can you have faith apart from the cross? Apart from Christ? Apart from the father or spirit? Apart from th gospel?

salvation is the gift, not of works lest any man should boast (take credit) yet we are saved through faith, thus faith is not a work,

it is faith in self that saves. People who reject Christ have faith in self r other men, that is what separates them from us, and why they will never come to God name matter here w hard God draws them
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
#75
Dec 28, 2016
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#75
eternally-gratefull said:
Yeah, so God allowed them to go to hell, and never gave them a chance, yet Jesus said he willed for all Israel to be saved, he could draw them like a mother hen draws her chicks, but it was not because he was unwilling, it was because they were unwilling.

you all take the reknowledge and omniscience out of the equation. I d not draw people to me I know want nothing to do with me, and I am not God, yet we see it in practice, God knows who are his, and draws them. NOT because they are special people but because God d knows they will respond, he called many, but few are chosen, because only a few believe
Click to expand...
Brother, God has drawn, is drawing and will draw a multitude He knew hated Him.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
#76
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
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#76
eternally-gratefull said:
Why don't they all believe? Romans 1 answers that

can you have faith apart from the cross? Apart from Christ? Apart from the father or spirit? Apart from th gospel?

salvation is the gift, not of works lest any man should boast (take credit) yet we are saved through faith, thus faith is not a work,

it is faith in self that saves. People who reject Christ have faith in self r other men, that is what separates them from us, and why they will never come to God name matter here w hard God draws them
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Here's the thing ppl need to grasp. We all believe Jesus lived a perfect life, died upon an cross, laid in a tomb for three days and rose again to save ppl from their sins. If He did that for everyone, then everyone's saved.

He rose again for our justification.[Romans 4:25] If the Christ rose for everyone's justification then everyone is justified. The our justification, in context, is the believers.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
#77
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
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#77
eternally-gratefull said:
thats impossible, you have a man dead in sin being made alive (regenerated) While still in his sin, justification MUST precede regeneration,

Our faith is gods work not our own, so it is not a work at all, you can not boast in the fact you allowed god to save you because you were completely hopeless in yourself
Click to expand...
Man in his fallen state can't hear the gospel we present to them. Their natural ears can, but they being in the flesh, their spirit being dead in transgressions and sins, can't hear. When God quickens them, they hear and are saved. It happens simultaenously.
 
Rockrz

Rockrz

Banned
#78
Dec 3, 2016
1,674
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0
#78
If He did that for everyone, then everyone's saved.
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Wrong...Only those that do not understand what God did when He created man... could think that.

There is a major part of the equation that is being left out cause satan seeks to blind men from a particular truth which enable the devil to control the minds / understanding of men and not coming to a relationship with the Father thru Jesus and end up in hell.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#79
#79
SovereignGrace said:
Here's the thing ppl need to grasp. We all believe Jesus lived a perfect life, died upon an cross, laid in a tomb for three days and rose again to save ppl from their sins. If He did that for everyone, then everyone's saved.

He rose again for our justification.[Romans 4:25] If the Christ rose for everyone's justification then everyone is justified. The our justification, in context, is the believers.
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This is where you are wrong, because he did not die for the sin of unbelief, thus as john said, whoever believes has eternal life, whoever does not belief shall not see life, but the wrath of God, the fact we all lived in unbelief at one time proved god S willing to give us a chance to repent, and change that unbelief to faith.

people in hell will be in hell because they rejected Christ, period.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#80
#80
SovereignGrace said:
Man in his fallen state can't hear the gospel we present to them. Their natural ears can, but they being in the flesh, their spirit being dead in transgressions and sins, can't hear. When God quickens them, they hear and are saved. It happens simultaenously.
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This does not change the fact you have them made alive before they are forgiven, that's impossible

romans 1 says they can hear the gospel from n fact they know it, they reject it and god allows them to continue in their sin and gives them over to it, (i.e.) he will not stop them from choosing t rebel and reject him
 
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