An Introduction to the Doctrines of Grace: Limited Atonement

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So, if the word 'world' means 'everybody w/o exception', then in that context, we are to be conformed to pattern of 'everybody w/o exception', which would also include believers, seeing they are living in the world.
Actually, a better way for me to state this would be...

If the word 'world' means 'everybody w/o exception', then we are to be conformed to the image of 'everybody w/o exception', and that would include non-believers. So, by using their hermeneutic, we are to conformed to the image of the saved and lost. :eek: :rolleyes: :mad:

Their hermeneutics and exegesis are way off kilter.

The word 'world' in both passages is referring to the lost and not 'everybody w/o exception'.
 
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A red haired man or should I say hairy man.

I wonder how Saul felt on the road to Damascus if he exercised his free will or did Jesus intrude on his life.
Didn't you read the fine print?

As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell[he actually exercised his free will and chose to fall] to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”[Acts 9:3,4]
 
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There is a hge difference in saying God died for ONLY sins of the limited atoned people. and saying he just died for all sins of unbelief. You could rightly say it proves limited atonement, But not the way your intending it when you are discussing it

Limited atonement means a certain group of people have no chance to be saved, period. God di dnot die for them, That is just not true.

God died for all sin, but unbelief, the people earned their condemnation. the people saved, God earned their right to be called children of God by his work. The formoer group WILLINGLY rejected that offer of forgiveness.

If the Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief, then none are saved, seeing we were all in a state of unbelief pre-conversion.
 
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God loves every soul to the fullest extent.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yeah? Even to those He tells, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’[Matthew 7:23]

'Knew' here is not just Him knowing their existence, but in not knowing them in an intimate relationship, as husband and wife. Seeing that the Christ is the groom of His bride, the church, the body of believers, is His bride. He did not know those He will cast into an eternal hell in an intimate way. He knows all mankind via creation, but His elect via regeneration.

So, God is not immutable if His love to each and every soul is to the fullest extent, for Him to then do a complete 180 and cast them into an eternal hell. If that's love, I want no part of it.
 
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Johnny_B

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Didn't you read the fine print?

As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell[he actually exercised his free will and chose to fall] to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”[Acts 9:3,4]
I need to wear my glasses more often.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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The Prophets Isaiah 53:1-12 “Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,and no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men,a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faceshe was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he has borne our griefsand carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken,smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,and with his wounds we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on himthe iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? 9 And they made his grave with the wickedand with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence,and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt,he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,make many to be accounted righteous,and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to deathand was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many,and makes intercession for the transgressors.”

Here’s what Gospels say. Mathew 1:21 “She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Luke 22:19-20 “And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.” He lays down His life for the sheep, here’s what He says about His sheep. John 10:14-15 “I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.” Jesus defines who His sheep are. John 10:26-30 “but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” John 15:13-14 “Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you.”
The book of Acts 20:28 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”

Paul say Christ gave himself up for the Church or His sheep Ephesians 5:25 “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,”

Here are the atonement Scriptures for limited atonement and universal ransom or propitiation.

Matthew 1:21 “She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Luke 1:76-79 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High;for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways 77 to give knowledge of salvation to his peoplein the forgiveness of their sins, 78 because of the tender mercy of our God,whereby the sunrise shall visit us from on high 79 to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death,to guide our feet into the way of peace.

John 1:29The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:11, 14-15, 17-18, 15:12-17, 17:1, 6, 17, 20-21 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep17For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father…15:12“This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17These things I command you, so that you will love one another…17:1 “When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,..6“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word…9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours…17Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth…20“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.”

Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.

Acts 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Romans 3:21-26But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:6-11 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

I Corinthians 11:23-24 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

I Corinthians 6:18-20, 7:23 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body…23You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men.

II Corinthians 5:14-19 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation…21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Galatians 1:3-5, 2:20 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen…2:20I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 5:1-2, 25-27 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. 2And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God…25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

Colossians 2:13-15 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

II Thessalonians 2:16-17 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, 17comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

I Timothy 2:1-6 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Hebrews 2:1-18 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, 4while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

5For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6It has been testified somewhere, “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? 7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, 8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.”

Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

10For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, 12saying,
“I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”
13And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.”

14Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. 16For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

II Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

I John 2:1-6 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2He isthe propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

I John 4:7-12 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scrolland to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for Godfrom every tribe and language and people and nation, 10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,and they shall reign on the earth.”



 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
No, that's not true.

We chose to submit because we are led to it.

We didn't know about the predestination until afterwards...

We didn't know salvation occurred because of the leading of the Lord Jesus Christ and not our awesome choices and strength until after we were saved.
This is why I hate these discussion. Where does this line of thinking come from?

Awesome choices and strength?

I can only ask where this thinking comes from? Humility is weakness, not strength, One can not come to faith in a God they can not see, a cross they only read about, a salvation they can only hope about, and an eternity in heaven they can only dream about out of strength, they come out of weakness.

The pharisee in strength praised God he was not like the sinner, the tax collector in utter defeat and hopelessness fell to his knees unable to even look to the heavens to call out on Gods name to save him. The sinner in strength continues to deny God, even though the creation itself proves that there is a God, and that the sins he or she does, and get other people to do are enough to earn them condemnation, it takes great strength to continue to deny God, it takes most, if not all people, complete brokenness and utter defeat to fall on their knees in utter desperation to call out to God.


Awesome choice? That so called awesome choice was a last ditch effort when all else was lost to find meaning for life, when all out choices to find that meaning has failed, and we realise how hopless we are.

I am sorry grandpa, I love ya, and I know you are my brother in christ as are all people who believe as you do, But sometimes I think we just need to think these things through, what you just said is far from reality in my view.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
God chose Israel over Egypt. That was favoritism.

God chose Jacob over Esau.

God chose Isaac over Ishmael.

Not sure why you don't think God shows favoritism.

I guess you already know that the Atonement can't be because of merit.
No, God did not show favoritism, He had a plan, and he chose certain people to carry out that plan.

Isreal did not merit that calling, That is what romans 9 was about, if you read it with an open mind, and not from a fatalistic point of view you would see that.

God did not favor you over Hitler. nor did he save you because you merited it and Hitler did not. According to God you were both sinners, and fall short of his glory, yet he died for both of you, If Hitler repented, he would be in heaven also. And no, He did not "not repent" because God did not choose him, God did not chose him because he KNEW he would not repent.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You do not merit a reply as the meanness of your post is obvious.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I have him on ignore, Not worth responding to. The mere fact he said we think all calvanists are going to hell proves he does not have any idea about what we are saying, He is just spouting off at the mouth without any thought like alot of people unfortunately do.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Did Adam really chose Eve or did God chose Eve for Adam, what were his other choices?

Eve sinned, Adam could have did the right thing, and not followed her in her sin, But for her sake, he sinned with her.

Adam chose Eve. And because of it, the OT and NT happened, ie, God chose Israel over egypt, he chose jacob over esau etc etc.

If adam chose God over Eve (he was still perfect and had the power not to sin) non of those would have happened.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Jesus, in His own words, said He laid His life down for the sheep. Is everybody a sheep? No. Paul, under the Spirit's inspiration, said that the Christ died for the church, which I tend to use body of believers, as the Greek word ekklesia is used. Is everybody in the body of believers? No.
He did not have to die, He did it for his sheep. Knowing they would receive him,

However, He also did it for all, Knowing not all would receive him, (thus shutting the mouth of satan, and removing satans power by defeating his lies)

I believe if only 100 people would chose to recieve his forgiveness, he would have done it for them

I woud stop thinking your so special, and just praise God he died for your sins, and have you the power to hmble yourself in weakness and come to the cross and recieve his gift of eternal life.
 
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He did not have to die, He did it for his sheep.

He did it for all, Knowing not all would receive him, I believe if only 100 people would chose to recieve his forgiveness, he would have done it for them

I woud stop thinking your so special, and just praise God he died for your sins, and have you the power to hmble yourself in weakness and come to the cross and recieve his gift of eternal life.
He did not have to die? Srsly?

Brother, do you even bible?
 
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He did not have to die, He did it for his sheep. Knowing they would receive him,

However, He also did it for all, Knowing not all would receive him, (thus shutting the mouth of satan, and removing satans power by defeating his lies)

I believe if only 100 people would chose to recieve his forgiveness, he would have done it for them

I woud stop thinking your so special, and just praise God he died for your sins, and have you the power to hmble yourself in weakness and come to the cross and recieve his gift of eternal life.
I should stop thinking I am special? Where do you get this? I deserved hell not heaven. You're the one advocating mankind's special that if God offers to save one He must offer to save all. You're all over the place.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
If the Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief, then none are saved, seeing we were all in a state of unbelief pre-conversion.
We will not die in that state, that's why he told the pharisee they were IN DANGER of commiting the unpardonable sin, even though technically, they just committed that sin He told them in not so many words they still had a chance to repent, to change from a state of unbelief to a state of belief (repent) Why warn them they were in danger if they had no hope of repenting and were lost forever?
 
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He did not have to die, He did it for his sheep. Knowing they would receive him,

However, He also did it for all, Knowing not all would receive him, (thus shutting the mouth of satan, and removing satans power by defeating his lies)

I believe if only 100 people would chose to recieve his forgiveness, he would have done it for them

I woud stop thinking your so special, and just praise God he died for your sins, and have you the power to hmble yourself in weakness and come to the cross and recieve his gift of eternal life.
The ad hominem, misunderstanding of Scripture and God is quite amazing in your post. You pretend you can write any narrative you want as if you know the will and mind of God and as if He had other options.

You simply don't know Scripture very well.

Then you show it isn't beneath you to call others lost. Quite callow of you. You're off to a bad start today. Is it a practice of yours to behave this way daily?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
He did not have to die? Srsly?

Brother, do you even bible?
Do you ever try to understand what people are trying to say? I bet you think, wow, I just got this person, and made an utter fool of him did you not?

Jesus did not have to die, HE CHOSE TO! For the sake of his sheep, He had free will..

Man was made in his image, They have free will, I did nto have to chose hm, I did, out of weakness. and desperation.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I should stop thinking I am special? Where do you get this? I deserved hell not heaven. You're the one advocating mankind's special that if God offers to save one He must offer to save all. You're all over the place.
Where do I get it? You preach God chose you, and did not chose others. That in itself makes you think your special..

Twist it all you want, that does not make it so.

God said he died for the workd. Satans lie was that God is not a God of love, he wants to rule over you, make you his puppet, and make everyone do his will,

God destroyed that lie by the cross. by dieing for every man woman and child who ever lived, non of who deserved it, Yet still, ill not force people to take it.

He did not make people robots. He made us in his image, He gave us free will, because he wanted to have a relationship with us, You can not have a relation ship with a robot who never is free to chose.. what you have is a dictatorship which leads to resentment and hate,
 
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He did not have to die, He did it for his sheep. Knowing they would receive him,

However, He also did it for all, Knowing not all would receive him, (thus shutting the mouth of satan, and removing satans power by defeating his lies)

I believe if only 100 people would chose to recieve his forgiveness, he would have done it for them

I woud stop thinking your so special, and just praise God he died for your sins, and have you the power to hmble yourself in weakness and come to the cross and recieve his gift of eternal life.
So, you admit God gives the power to humble themselves to those who humble themselves. Doesn't that trump free will.

Your're getting there....slooooooowly...
 
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Where do I get it? You preach God chose you, and did not chose others. That in itself makes you think your special..

Twist it all you want, that does not make it so.

God said he died for the workd. Satans lie was that God is not a God of love, he wants to rule over you, make you his puppet, and make everyone do his will,

God destroyed that lie by the cross. by dieing for every man woman and child who ever lived, non of who deserved it, Yet still, ill not force people to take it.

He did not make people robots. He made us in his image, He gave us free will, because he wanted to have a relationship with us, You can not have a relation ship with a robot who never is free to chose.. what you have is a dictatorship which leads to resentment and hate,
You and I are done. Ignore for you.

You have no business teaching others the Bible when you can't even teach yourself.

Your incessant maligning my posts makes me put you on ignore.

Good bye.