Should women be silent in church and wear head coverings?

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Should women be silent in church and wear head coverings?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 22.6%
  • No

    Votes: 19 61.3%
  • If they have long hair, they can skip the head covering.

    Votes: 5 16.1%

  • Total voters
    31

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
1 Cor 11:1-16:

This passage is definitely about authority but some points need to be borne in mind.

The first deals with the phrase "and the head of Christ is God" (vs 3).
In what sense is this accurate?
Is the sense here that Christ is eternally subordinate to God or is something else being communicated here.
In His human incarnation Jesus pronounced Himself on many occasions as being subordinate to God (the Father) - references too numerous to list. But, in the eternal sense Jesus Christ, along with the Holy Spirit, is co-eternal and co-divine with God the Father.
Why is this important?
Well it shows that there is a situation, His human incarnation, where Christ subjected Himself to God the Father for the purpose of obedient fulfillment of the law unto the point of death in order for His death to be the ultimate sacrifice for sin, whereas in a larger sense He was never subordinate to the Father.

Vs 3 has an interesting order, where the phrase "and the head of Christ is God." terminates the sentence.
Now, if the intent of that whole verse was to establish a pecking order of authority - Father -> Christ -> man -> woman, then the order is wrong, the comparison of man to woman should terminate the sentence.
But, that is NOT how Paul constructs that sentence!

I will come back to the significance of this a bit later, but I need to raise another important point first.
The terms 'man' and 'woman' cannot just unthinkingly be interpreted as a generic male and a generic female.
Why?
In the Koine Greek of the time these words are used far more frequently to refer, in meaning, to 'husband' and 'wife' than generic male and female. There was no specific word for 'husband' and 'wife' as there obviously is in English. In less precise English usage today it is still rather common for a woman to refer to her husband as 'my man' or a man to refer to his wife as 'my woman'. In Koine Greek this was the only way!

So the question naturally arises - which usage of the words 'man' and 'woman' is being employed here?
Well, context decides...
In the subsequent verses the conversation revolves around head coverings for women.
Well, who wore head coverings?
Married women!
This was especially so for Jewish women of the time - to have one's head covered was a sign of respect and submission to one's husband and this can still be observed in Orthodox Jewish circles today.
The Corinthian church was not just composed of Messianic Jews but also included God-fearers (Gentiles who were close followers of Judaism but who were not prepared to be circumcised). The women in this group would also have followed similar patterns of behaviour to the Jewish women-folk.

The conclusion that can be drawn from the context is that Paul is referring to a husband being the head of his wife in vs 3!
It CANNOT be a reference to authority of a man over a woman in the generic sense.
For a woman (adult) to be in submission to a man meant that that man was her husband and the authority that a man has over a woman is due to him being her husband - that is all!
In other words the authority that a man has over a woman is situational - conditional on him being her husband.
The parallel is the authority under which Jesus Christ submitted Himself during His incarnation.
Both are situational and neither are eternal!

The question about head coverings is a non-question today!
Why?
Because the issue is not about head coverings per se but about a woman showing appropriate respect and submission to her husband, and that, directly in the context of praying or prophesying in church. Probably we should now, today, broaden this to any form of ministry in a church that a woman is likely to be involved in.
Looked at in this way the question of head coverings is a complete non-issue.
There are many other important ways in which a woman could and should show respect and submission to her husband while being involved in ministry in the church.
In NT times the way a devout woman would show respect and submission to her husband was to cover her head.
In different times and cultures the devout woman continues to show respect and submission to her husband, but the way in which she does so will be determined by the culture in which she lives!

By the way, if women are meant to be in silent in the church how is it that Paul is giving instructions to women who are praying and prophesying, not be silent, but to show proper respect to their husbands....
 
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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,781
13,413
113
graceNpeace... I can't rep you, but I'd like to. Thanks for the explanation... it certainly helps! :)
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,453
3,503
113
Disclaimer: This poll is for my desire to know where the CC members stack up. It is not just so I can see the majority opinion and change mine to match it. I provide this disclaimer because someone else complained earlier about my use of polls.
Woman should be silent in church in regards to speaking about doctrine,, But they do not need to have head coverings because God has given them long hair has a head covering..

I don't have any problems with woman singing praise songs in churches..

So since i have this position i cannot answer your poll since you lumped two questions in together..
 
May 13, 2017
2,359
27
0
Woman should be silent in church in regards to speaking about doctrine,, But they do not need to have head coverings because God has given them long hair has a head covering..

I don't have any problems with woman singing praise songs in churches..

So since i have this position i cannot answer your poll since you lumped two questions in together..
This women keep silent is a false teaching.. Taken totally out of context and wrong!!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
1 Cor 11:1-16:

This passage is definitely about authority but some points need to be borne in mind.

The first deals with the phrase "and the head of Christ is God" (vs 3).
In what sense is this accurate?
Is the sense here that Christ is eternally subordinate to God or is something else being communicated here.
In His human incarnation Jesus pronounced Himself on many occasions as being subordinate to God (the Father) - references too numerous to list. But, in the eternal sense Jesus Christ, along with the Holy Spirit, is co-eternal and co-divine with God the Father.
Why is this important?
Well it shows that there is a situation, His human incarnation, where Christ subjected Himself to God the Father for the purpose of obedient fulfillment of the law unto the point of death in order for His death to be the ultimate sacrifice for sin, whereas in a larger sense He was never subordinate to the Father.

Vs 3 has an interesting order, where the phrase "and the head of Christ is God." terminates the sentence.
Now, if the intent of that whole verse was to establish a pecking order of authority - Father -> Christ -> man -> woman, then the order is wrong, the comparison of man to woman should terminate the sentence.
But, that is NOT how Paul constructs that sentence!

I will come back to the significance of this a bit later, but I need to raise another important point first.
The terms 'man' and 'woman' cannot just unthinkingly be interpreted as a generic male and a generic female.
Why?
In the Koine Greek of the time these words are used far more frequently to refer, in meaning, to 'husband' and 'wife' than generic male and female. There was no specific word for 'husband' and 'wife' as there obviously is in English. In less precise English usage today it is still rather common for a woman to refer to her husband as 'my man' or a man to refer to his wife as 'my woman'. In Koine Greek this was the only way!

So the question naturally arises - which usage of the words 'man' and 'woman' is being employed here?
Well, context decides...
In the subsequent verses the conversation revolves around head coverings for women.
Well, who wore head coverings?
Married women!
This was especially so for Jewish women of the time - to have one's head covered was a sign of respect and submission to one's husband and this can still be observed in Orthodox Jewish circles today.
The Corinthian church was not just composed of Messianic Jews but also included God-fearers (Gentiles who were close followers of Judaism but who were not prepared to be circumcised). The women in this group would also have followed similar patterns of behaviour to the Jewish women-folk.

The conclusion that can be drawn from the context is that Paul is referring to a husband being the head of his wife in vs 3!
It CANNOT be a reference to authority of a man over a woman in the generic sense.
For a woman (adult) to be in submission to a man meant that that man was her husband and the authority that a man has over a woman is due to him being her husband - that is all!
In other words the authority that a man has over a woman is situational - conditional on him being her husband.
The parallel is the authority under which Jesus Christ submitted Himself during His incarnation.
Both are situational and neither are eternal!

The question about head coverings is a non-question today!
Why?
Because the issue is not about head coverings per se but about a woman showing appropriate respect and submission to her husband, and that, directly in the context of praying or prophesying in church. Probably we should now, today, broaden this to any form of ministry in a church that a woman is likely to be involved in.
Looked at in this way the question of head coverings is a complete non-issue.
There are many other important ways in which a woman could and should show respect and submission to her husband while being involved in ministry in the church.
In NT times the way a devout woman would show respect and submission to her husband was to cover her head.
In different times and cultures the devout woman continues to show respect and submission to her husband, but the way in which she does so will be determined by the culture in which she lives!

By the way, if women are meant to be in silent in the church how is it that Paul is giving instructions to women who are praying and prophesying, not be silent, but to show proper respect to their husbands....
Wow, thats long.

Maybe I do not see it, but did you not leave out the fact that the head coverings was because of angels? You try to make it symbolic only.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,601
13,017
113
This women keep silent is a false teaching.. Taken totally out of context and wrong!!
Here is the context and here is the true teaching (1 Cor 14:33-35). So you are accusing the Holy Spirit of false teaching, and that is a very serious matter:

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,601
13,017
113
Looked at in this way the question of head coverings is a complete non-issue.
When the Holy Spirit devotes sixteen verses of Scripture to an issue, it CANNOT BE a non-issue.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113

When the Holy Spirit devotes sixteen verses of Scripture to an issue, it CANNOT BE a non-issue.
This is generally very true.

Some people keep their theologies based on one or two verses while for another one even whole chapters are not enough, because it is not popular in society :)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,601
13,017
113
Maybe I do not see it, but did you not leave out the fact that the head coverings was because of angels?
This is one of the few times when the ministry of angels is connected with what goes on within the churches. Christians are generally unaware that during worship not only are Christ and the Holy Spirit present, but there are angels observing and reporting on the behavior of Christians. So 1 Cor 11:10 must be taken as a key verse in this context.

COMMENTARY CRITICAL AND EXPLANATORY ON THE WHOLE BIBLE

10. power on her head--the kerchief: French couvre chef, head-covering, the emblem of "power on her head"; the sign of her being under man's power, and exercising delegated authority under him. Paul had before his mind the root-connection between the Hebrew terms for "veil" (radid), and "subjection" (radad).

because of the angels-- who are present at our Christian assemblies (compare
Psalms 138:1 , "gods," that is, angels), and delight in the orderly subordination of the several ranks of God's worshippers in their respective places,
the outward demeanor and dress of the latter being indicative of that inward humility which angels know to be most pleasing to their common Lord ( 1 Corinthians 4:9 , Ephesians 3:10 ,Ecclesiastes 5:6 ). HAMMOND quotes CHRYSOSTOM, "Thou standest with angels; thou singest with them; thou hymnest with them; and yet dost thou stand laughing?" BENGEL explains, "As the angels are in relation to God, so the woman is in relation to man. God's face is uncovered; angels in His presence are veiled ( Isaiah 6:2 ). Man's face is uncovered; woman in His presence is to be veiled. For her not to be so, would, by its indecorousness, offend the angels ( Matthew 18:10Matthew 18:31 ). She, by her weakness, especially needs their ministry; she ought, therefore, to be the more careful not to offendthem."
 
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graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
Wow, thats long.

Maybe I do not see it, but did you not leave out the fact that the head coverings was because of angels? You try to make it symbolic only.
If you can SPECIFICALLY tell me the significance of the reference to angels I am all ears!
As for the issue of head coverings: it is all about respect and submission to one's husband - nothing symbolic about that.
If women in many societies today wore head coverings all the WRONG things would be assumed about its significance...
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
If you can SPECIFICALLY tell me the significance of the reference to angels I am all ears!
As for the issue of head coverings: it is all about respect and submission to one's husband - nothing symbolic about that.
If women in many societies today wore head coverings all the WRONG things would be assumed about its significance...
I am not sure why exactly it is needed "because of angels", but what I can get from this phrase is the fact that it is not "jewish", or "cultural", but it should be applied in all days.

Because it is not "because of customs, habbits or culture", its "because of angels", instead.

And angels exist even today :) I suppose.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
Regarding possible theories "why exactly it matters for angels", I found this response quite complete:

------

a) άγγελοι in the human sense of "messenger." Some contextual support (10:32, 14:23) to view these "messengers" as outsiders or envoys from other churches. Essentially Paul is hoping to ensure that the Corinthian church does not embarrass themselves.

b) The angels are "guardians of the created order." Paul seems to be drawing on the creation tradition in establishing a cosmic hierarchy and uses angels as the final justification for this hierarchy. He relies on Jewish tradition to solidify this connection (specifically Targum Pseudo-Jonathan to Gen 1:26 which perceives angels as the agents by which God effected creation ... "let us" is then these angels speaking).

c) This is dealing with angels' presence in the congregation of the community. Fitzmyer was instrumental in identifying an earlier, similar belief articulated in Qumran (the War Scroll, and the Community Scroll). Extending this, angelic worship (that is, the type of worship performed by angels) is a most exemplary form of worship and worthy of imitation. Paul is relying on this perspective to reinforce the directives he's given as a means of working toward worshiping as the angels do.

d) These are actually "bad" angels that Paul has in view. This is based on a Graeco-Roman culture in which the female head (and hair) could be viewed as displays of sexuality (and availability). The head covering was a means of maintaining order and reducing potential for lust/sexual angst within the male population (akin to forbidding micro mini skirts in church now). The "bad" angels were angels who fell because they had sex with the beautiful daughters of men. As such, Paul is enjoining this upon them for their own protection from these angels.

-----

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....-because-of-the-angels-refer-to-in-1-cor-1110
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
I am not sure why exactly it is needed "because of angels", but what I can get from this phrase is the fact that it is not "jewish", or "cultural", but it should be applied in all days.

Because it is not "because of customs, habbits or culture", its "because of angels", instead.

And angels exist even today :) I suppose.
The practice of head covering was most definitely cultural, and still exists in similar cultures today.
I think your assumption about the significance of the phrase "because of the angels" is just that - an assumption.
The closest comparison to this phrase is in Galatians chapter 3 but even there the exact significance is not obvious.

I don't think churches should be even suggesting head coverings for women never mind mandating the practice based on this passage.
I do think, based on that passage that women need to show show due respect and submission to their husbands in church.
There is nothing in the passage that subjugates women, in the generic sense, to men, in the generic sense.
 
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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
The practice of head covering was most definitely cultural, and still exists in similar cultures today.
I think your assumption about the significance of the phrase "because of the angles" is just that - an assumption.
The closest comparison to this phrase is in Galatians chapter 3 but even there the exact significance is not obvious.

I don't think churches should be even suggesting head coverings for women never mind mandating the practice based on this passage.
I do think, based on that passage that women need to show show due respect and submission to their husbands in church.
There is nothing in the passage that subjugates women, in the generic sense, to men, in the generic sense.
I agree its cultural in the meaning that some cultures are doing it and some not.

But I do not agree that it si cultural in the meaning "we do not have to do it because its reason is based in a culture". This contradicts the phrase "it is because of angels".

If angels are not cultural, neither is the head covering because of them.
 
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graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
Regarding possible theories "why exactly it matters for angels", I found this response quite complete:

------

a) άγγελοι in the human sense of "messenger." Some contextual support (10:32, 14:23) to view these "messengers" as outsiders or envoys from other churches. Essentially Paul is hoping to ensure that the Corinthian church does not embarrass themselves.

b) The angels are "guardians of the created order." Paul seems to be drawing on the creation tradition in establishing a cosmic hierarchy and uses angels as the final justification for this hierarchy. He relies on Jewish tradition to solidify this connection (specifically Targum Pseudo-Jonathan to Gen 1:26 which perceives angels as the agents by which God effected creation ... "let us" is then these angels speaking).

c) This is dealing with angels' presence in the congregation of the community. Fitzmyer was instrumental in identifying an earlier, similar belief articulated in Qumran (the War Scroll, and the Community Scroll). Extending this, angelic worship (that is, the type of worship performed by angels) is a most exemplary form of worship and worthy of imitation. Paul is relying on this perspective to reinforce the directives he's given as a means of working toward worshiping as the angels do.

d) These are actually "bad" angels that Paul has in view. This is based on a Graeco-Roman culture in which the female head (and hair) could be viewed as displays of sexuality (and availability). The head covering was a means of maintaining order and reducing potential for lust/sexual angst within the male population (akin to forbidding micro mini skirts in church now). The "bad" angels were angels who fell because they had sex with the beautiful daughters of men. As such, Paul is enjoining this upon them for their own protection from these angels.

-----

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....-because-of-the-angels-refer-to-in-1-cor-1110
There is nothing in this article that I don't already know.

Couple of points:
The issue of head coverings was never all about reducing the potential for sexual immorality.
Yes, prostitutes were known to uncover their hair at the time and no respectable woman would be seen with her hair uncovered (her husband and children were an exception).
However, it is very important to understand that the practice PREDATES NT times and its significance was primarily to show respect and submission to one's husband.

In Western society today (some Orthodox Jews would be an exception here) this is not part of the culture...
However, there are many diverse and important ways for women to show respect and submission to their husbands that do have cultural significance today - that is what we should be encouraging.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
In Western society today (some Orthodox Jews would be an exception here) this is not part of the culture...
However, there are many diverse and important ways for women to show respect and submission to their husbands that do have cultural significance today - that is what we should be encouraging.
Today's western society is not a measurement of what is right or wrong.

Today's western society claims that homosexuals can be married or that they can lead the church, too. Its state is actually very similar to Rome before its decay and fall.

So my main point is - does Paul reason head coverings by a culture or by angels? If the second, I think we should do it, regardless our godless society and its habbits.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
However, there are many diverse and important ways for women to show respect and submission to their husbands that do have cultural significance today - that is what we should be encouraging.
Can you name some? I have no idea what can be a substitue of such visible mark of authority on women.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
Today's western society is not a measurement of what is right or wrong.

Today's western society claims that homosexuals can be married or that they can lead the church, too. Its state is actually very similar to Rome before its decay and fall.

So my main point is - does Paul reason head coverings by a culture or by angels? If the second, I think we should do it, regardless our godless society and its habbits.
And neither was culture in NT times!
Just go and read about the shenanigans in that very Corinthian church...

The point I was making is sound: culture does change, and, there are very appropriate ways for any woman to show respect and submission to her husband today that ARE culturally significant ie everybody knows what they mean!
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
Can you name some? I have no idea what can be a substitue of such visible mark of authority on women.
You know what - a visible mark for the sake of a mark is the ultimate meaningless gesture.
Wearing head coverings does not have significance in current Western society and forcing its adoption is not going to have a constructive effect.
Perhaps we should insist that you go around wearing bedsheets for clothes instead...
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
Can you name some? I have no idea what can be a substitue of such visible mark of authority on women.
Are you married?
How does your wife show you respect?
Why do you want an externally visible mark of respect?

There does not need to a uniform way of doing this - all that needs to happen is for women to show due respect for their husbands and vica versa - and people will notice - simple as that!