The Rapture

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
I wouldn't disagree with this 1066, the application was one for the living - the dead in Hades were not able to "enter in" while the physical temple was standing.

On the physical temple's destruction the "dead" saints were able to enter in.

And PLW mentioned his return would "not tarry":

Heb 10:37 For yet a little while (Greek - micron), and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

G3397 mikron mik-ron'

a small space of time or degree.

This is a significant verse that is often overlooked in futurist theologies.

His coming was in one part in judgement and destruction of temple (not one stone) when the old covenant passed with it's jots and tittles.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The "all things" included the jots and tittles..
Why in the world would a building on planet earth keep the old testament saints from being raised.... was the temple sitting on top of their graves lol.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
Can't go along with you on that one my friend. The 6th trumpet was called, "plagues (of) fire, smoke and brimstone." That doesn't sound like a bunch of people accepting Christ. It sounds like what happened after Titus broke through the last wall and torched the whole place.

If my math is correct, Titus would have killed about 49,000, thus sparing 98,000 to take back to Rome.
We can disagree. :)
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
KJV again - look at this in Young's Literal which does a far better job at the Greek tense:

Heb 9:9 which is a simile in regard to the present time, in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered, which are not able, in regard to conscience, to make perfect him who is serving,

NASB and the NIV have translated this as "present time".

Gifts and sacrifices were being offered during Christ's time on earth so Hebrews is correctly understood as "present time" . He's comparing the then standing temple with the temple built without hands.

Matt 5:24
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Both versions say the same thing as the KJV Locomotive. The temple was a FIGURE or SIMILE of the REAL temple the body of Christ. Once the real temple is here what purpose does the shadow have? It was only there to point to the real in the first place.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
Why in the world would a building on planet earth keep the old testament saints from being raised.... was the temple sitting on top of their graves lol.
Because God works according to his covenants.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113

The Cross - the making of the new covenant
AD 70 - the "restoration of all things" and passing of the old covenant

Incidentally, both required action from Christ.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, [SUP]21 [/SUP]whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
If Jesus dying on the cross RECONCILLING the world isn't restoration then I don't know what is lol. Tell me PW, what was restored in AD 70?
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
when they run to the greek u kno its some false teaching coming. u can make da greek say whatever u want it to say. dont believe this false teaching, Christ is coming again and da resurrection too!
This is what happens when people go outside the bible (Josephus) to understand the bible. Josephus plants all kinds of unbiblical notions in peoples minds... sort of like the book of Enoch.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
Both versions say the same thing as the KJV Locomotive. The temple was a FIGURE or SIMILE of the REAL temple the body of Christ. Once the real temple is here what purpose does the shadow have? It was only there to point to the real in the first place.
I really don't think you are seeing this straight 1916...I'm steamrolling you here....



 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
:p

The resurrection of the saints was not at the cross, but this gets tricky...

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The old saints and those that died prior to his coming as Paul said are sleeping:

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

So wherever you place this
coming is where the resurrection is, it wasn't the cross.

Heb 10:37
For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Thessalonians and Hebrews are speaking of the same event.
When Christ died he made the way for all to go to heaven. The old testament saints were rasied AFTER Christ made the way, why would they not go to heaven. Why would they die AGAIN when it is appointed ONCE to die?

I don't understand why you and PW can't accept this as the firstruits of the 1st resurrection.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Apollyon is Vespasian’s son Titus, the commander of the Legio XV Apollinaris (Fifteenth Apollonian Legion). Initially the commander of the Fifteenth Legion, Titus then went on to succeed his father as general over all the Roman legions during the Jewish War after his father had become Caesar, a title also bestowed on Titus at his father’s coronation. As Caesar, Titus was entitled to worship as a god in the imperial cult, and like Apollo, the son of Zeus, could also be labeled the Son of God–a perfect title for the beast.

At the start of the Jewish War, Titus was the general of the Fifteenth Legion. With Apollo as its patron, the Fifteenth Legion was suitably nicknamed Apollinaris, a name meaning “devoted to Apollo.” The Fifteenth Legion would always carry an emblem of Apollo or one of his holy animals wherever it went. Not surprisingly, the locust was one of Apollo’s holy animals. Now it is easy to see why John chose locusts to symbolize the soldiers of the Roman army. So “devoted to Titus” was his army that at the taking of the Jewish temple, they unanimously declared him emperor of Rome in fulfillment of v. 11 in which Apollyon is said to have been “king over them.”



 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
:p

The resurrection of the saints was not at the cross, but this gets tricky...

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The old saints and those that died prior to his coming as Paul said are sleeping:

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

So wherever you place this
coming is where the resurrection is, it wasn't the cross.

Heb 10:37
For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Thessalonians and Hebrews are speaking of the same event.
Hmm. I wonder why some sought to obtain a better resurrection (Heb 11:35) when they were to look forward to the blessed hope, i.e., rapture.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
If Jesus dying on the cross RECONCILLING the world isn't restoration then I don't know what is lol. Tell me PW, what was restored in AD 70?
The cross was a part of the restoration, if we really to want find when the restoration started we need to go back to John The Elijahist:

Matt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Matt 17:12
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, .....

And we need to take into consideration what Peter said:

Acts 3:19 (NASB)
whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

The restoration was completed in his coming in vengeance in the 1st century.

 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
If Jesus dying on the cross RECONCILLING the world isn't restoration then I don't know what is lol. Tell me PW, what was restored in AD 70?

To answer that, what was lost at the Garden? Separation from God was restored. No more going to Hades when you die and waiting for the second coming. Yes, Christ's blood redeemed the world but as of Rev 1 He still had not unlocked Death and Hades. If He had, why mention the keys? It took the passing of the Law and the Mosaic Age to complete our ability to go straight to heaven upon death.

Spiritual Death = Separation from God

This was restored, not lions playing with lambs and removal of thorny bushes, etc.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
Apollyon is Vespasian’s son Titus, the commander of the Legio XV Apollinaris (Fifteenth Apollonian Legion). Initially the commander of the Fifteenth Legion, Titus then went on to succeed his father as general over all the Roman legions during the Jewish War after his father had become Caesar, a title also bestowed on Titus at his father’s coronation. As Caesar, Titus was entitled to worship as a god in the imperial cult, and like Apollo, the son of Zeus, could also be labeled the Son of God–a perfect title for the beast.

At the start of the Jewish War, Titus was the general of the Fifteenth Legion. With Apollo as its patron, the Fifteenth Legion was suitably nicknamed Apollinaris, a name meaning “devoted to Apollo.” The Fifteenth Legion would always carry an emblem of Apollo or one of his holy animals wherever it went. Not surprisingly, the locust was one of Apollo’s holy animals. Now it is easy to see why John chose locusts to symbolize the soldiers of the Roman army. So “devoted to Titus” was his army that at the taking of the Jewish temple, they unanimously declared him emperor of Rome in fulfillment of v. 11 in which Apollyon is said to have been “king over them.”



Left Behind retro version lol.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
When Christ died he made the way for all to go to heaven. The old testament saints were rasied AFTER Christ made the way, why would they not go to heaven. Why would they die AGAIN when it is appointed ONCE to die?

I don't understand why you and PW can't accept this as the firstruits of the 1st resurrection.
Because there was no wrath then. Christ returns with Power and Vengeance. He didn't come out of the grave punishing anyway. He had to return to heaven until it was time to restore all things.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
The cross was a part of the restoration, if we really to want find when the restoration started we need to go back to John The Elijahist:

Matt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Matt 17:12
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, .....

And we need to take into consideration what Peter said:

Acts 3:19 (NASB)
whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

The restoration was completed in his coming in vengeance in the 1st century.

What was restored in AD 70?
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
Because there was no wrath then. Christ returns with Power and Vengeance. He didn't come out of the grave punishing anyway. He had to return to heaven until it was time to restore all things.
Why are you ascociating wrath with the resurrection?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Where does the bible say the old covenant ends with the destruction of the temple?
Heb 9 alludes to it:

Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For a tabernacle was prepared...