REFORMED?

[Issachar92]

Calvinism sounds more like some sort of safety net wherein you don't have to worry (not saying Christians are to worry because the Bible tells us otherwise but just using an expression) because you are predestined and your future is secure

we are secure in Christ...but the Bible DOES say 'whosoever will' but they interpret that as only those who God says can come with the bonus feature that you literally HAVE NO CHOICE...like a robot

it's mind boggling they do not see the contradiction there

maybe we are looking at hyper-Calvinism here...I don't know. I guess there are variations within that denom as with everything else

What you're describing is the "calvinist special". They take the "not of works" to another dimension where even simply placing your faith on something is a work. Ya cant win with these people. Its a lawyer's doctrine made by and for coldhearted people. But lucky for us, calvinists are lousy at evangelizing these days, so they'll be down and out sooner rather than later. Pure human logic. That is why most of these guys deny anything spiritual, they are cessationist, while the bible says that them gifts will operate until the perfect one shows up, but who cares what the bible says, we got some lawyer from europe who was a big fan of augustine.

Now lemme quickly take a jab at the not of works fallacy used by so many these days. Its in the book of ephesians as well know very well. The not of works mentioned means works of the law, circumcision and things like that (acts 15:1)

This is what happened in Ephesus among other things:

Acts 19:1-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior regions and came to Ephesus. He found some disciples
[SUP]2 [/SUP] and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” “No,” they told him, “we haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
[SUP]3 [/SUP] “Then what ⌊baptism⌋ were you baptized with?” he asked them. “With John’s baptism,” they replied.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people that they should believe in the One who would come after him, that is, in Jesus.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began to speak in ⌊other⌋ languages and to prophesy.

Now they believed so either all the commands to believe and repent are meaningless since no one can repent and believe unless God grants it to them, or the catholic latin church father augustine was wrong.
No matter how much the lawyer's play the logic game, at the end of the day in calvinism the reason people don't get saved and remain in their sins is God, He is the reason people sin and can't come to Jesus, because He knowingly and sovereignly decided to run the world like this.
Pagan philosophy. Don't let these pundits steal ya faith or make you doubt if you're really elect and all that trash. Its a group of insecure grown men prowling around seeking whom they may debate.

 

[1ofthem]

er, not to argue, but to assure you, i number among the Reformed, and attend a Reformed church, but have never known anyone who does this.

we are fully aware most of us weren't familiar with Reformed doctrine when God saved us.

Ok...not wanting to argue either and I am happy to hear your thoughts on this matter.

My thoughts are that sometimes we, me included, can unintentionally cast fear and doubt on others...If we say Jesus didn't die for all and that some have no opportunity at forgiveness... then you can see how the enemy could use that to cast fear and doubt...He knows that we have to believe in order to receive the promises of God...In my opinion this gives him wiggle room to get in and try to cast doubts at others. He knows what scripture says...Whosoever shall believe, as well as any, so his job is to try to dissuade others from believing....and he does this in many ways...

That's my thoughts about it anyhow

 

[Zmouth]

sigh

If Jesus died for the sins of the entire world and He did then why are not all saved? Fair question and answered in scripture so God wants us to know.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Then either the Son failed or the Son doesn't save but rather a person saves themselves or the other possibility which those who save themselves who are ever learning about who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[notmyown]

Ok...not wanting to argue either and I am happy to hear your thoughts on this matter.

My thoughts are that sometimes we, me included, can unintentionally cast fear and doubt on others...If we say Jesus didn't die for all and that some have no opportunity at forgiveness... then you can see how the enemy could use that to cast fear and doubt...He knows that we have to believe in order to receive the promises of God...In my opinion this gives him wiggle room to get in and try to cast doubts at others. He knows what scripture says...Whosoever shall believe, as well as any, so his job is to try to dissuade others from believing....and he does this in many ways...

That's my thoughts about it anyhow

thank you!

yeah, when we share the Gospel, we don't say, "if you number among the elect, you can be saved."

no, we tell them Christ died for sinners (like me), and if you believe and place your trust fully in Him, you will be saved. (abbreviated version, natch) we believe all who are predestined to come to Christ will come, but for me, at least, that doesn't come into it when i share the Gospel, and we do share the Gospel, contrary to popular opinion. lol
as you say, we don't want to hinder anyone from coming to Jesus.

i remember once Bogadile said in a post he believes the Reformed are the most misunderstood, and i think he's right about that. it was a gracious thing to say, too. (if you're reading this, my thanks, Bogadile )

 

[notuptome]

I heard the Gospel, and realized I believed it, and in what Christ has done for me. Then I realized I was forgiven all my wicked sin and was born again.

Well it is dangerous to question another persons testimony with respect to how the came to know Christ but I am wondering what it means to realize that you believe? I need to know what it is to realize you were forgiven?

How does this align with John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Is it head knowledge or is it heart knowledge?

Questions I ask everyone so it is not a personal attack or attempt to malign your character.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The real question is did you realize your were justly on your way to eternal condemnation because you were guilty of sin before God?

 

[1ofthem]

thank you!

yeah, when we share the Gospel, we don't say, "if you number among the elect, you can be saved."

no, we tell them Christ died for sinners (like me), and if you believe and place your trust fully in Him, you will be saved. (abbreviated version, natch) we believe all who are predestined to come to Christ will come, but for me, at least, that doesn't come into it when i share the Gospel, and we do share the Gospel, contrary to popular opinion. lol
as you say, we don't want to hinder anyone from coming to Jesus.

i remember once Bogadile said in a post he believes the Reformed are the most misunderstood, and i think he's right about that. it was a gracious thing to say, too. (if you're reading this, my thanks, Bogadile )

Thanks for your explanation on to how you share the Gospel...I'm really glad to hear that...

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I have to be honest here. Some ideas and convictions can come upon you, and you are certain
they explain everything. It can become like struggling in the dark and then everything falls into
place. The problem is the difference between being confused and then finding one perspective
is progress, but not necessarily the answer to everything.

Many take this reassurance and bunker down, and it becomes their badge of identity.
My approach is actually to go through these experiences and then build out and test the
different aspects. What you find is they are part of the whole, but not as distinct as some
would like, and becoming dogmatic can be as dangerous as not believing at all.

It is why some christians can become very bitter, sharp people, because one way of looking
at standards is as a weapon to beat people with, rather than a definition of safety and help.

An eye for an eye was a great improvement on you hurt me and I will kill you.

I can see that...good observations actually

I don't believe in one size fits all other than God's salvation through Christ

if you are an honest person, you are going to have struggles. period

 

[7seasrekeyed]

What you're describing is the "calvinist special". They take the "not of works" to another dimension where even simply placing your faith on something is a work. Ya cant win with these people. Its a lawyer's doctrine made by and for coldhearted people. But lucky for us, calvinists are lousy at evangelizing these days, so they'll be down and out sooner rather than later. Pure human logic. That is why most of these guys deny anything spiritual, they are cessationist, while the bible says that them gifts will operate until the perfect one shows up, but who cares what the bible says, we got some lawyer from europe who was a big fan of augustine.

Now lemme quickly take a jab at the not of works fallacy used by so many these days. Its in the book of ephesians as well know very well. The not of works mentioned means works of the law, circumcision and things like that (acts 15:1)

This is what happened in Ephesus among other things:

Acts 19:1-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior regions and came to Ephesus. He found some disciples
[SUP]2 [/SUP] and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” “No,” they told him, “we haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
[SUP]3 [/SUP] “Then what ⌊baptism⌋ were you baptized with?” he asked them. “With John’s baptism,” they replied.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people that they should believe in the One who would come after him, that is, in Jesus.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began to speak in ⌊other⌋ languages and to prophesy.

Now they believed so either all the commands to believe and repent are meaningless since no one can repent and believe unless God grants it to them, or the catholic latin church father augustine was wrong.
No matter how much the lawyer's play the logic game, at the end of the day in calvinism the reason people don't get saved and remain in their sins is God, He is the reason people sin and can't come to Jesus, because He knowingly and sovereignly decided to run the world like this.
Pagan philosophy. Don't let these pundits steal ya faith or make you doubt if you're really elect and all that trash. Its a group of insecure grown men prowling around seeking whom they may debate.

no arguement from me

what I have learned about calvinists so far, leads me to think they are a bunch of angry people who take great exception to anyone who does not agree with their presentations


I agree about the 'not of works'

doesn't seem to matter how often you say that you agree salvation is not earned and is not kept by works

they do not seem to understand what the definition of the works that do not save is however...I think you've spelled it out pretty good!

with regards to the bold type above, everything is God's fault apparently...even if a worm gets run over by a car

twas the doing of God

Jesus said God sees when a sparrow falls. He did not say God ordained said sparrow should fall. massive difference

 

[Grandpa]

God is Awesome. His Ways are past understanding.


I think it is awesome that an arminian/works doctrine is kind of required to begin on the path to Salvation and know God.

But once someone has come to Christ and has received Knowledge and Wisdom of Him they must start (slowly) becoming calvinist.

Calvinism isn't what draws someone to Christ. It is what happens after you learn of Him. After you have made your salvation sure. After you have worked out your salvation with "fear and trembling". After you realize it wasn't your work that caused your Salvation.


Now to Atonement. Atonement is a Fact. The Blood of the Lamb has Atoned for sin for all time. For the whole world. If that meant that every SINGLE person has been atoned for then that means there is nothing for God to Judge and everyone goes to Heaven. Right?

Belief is not required for Atonement and for a statement of fact. The reason why faith is required for Salvation is because the Atonement only applies to those who believe. It can only apply to those who believe because it is only those who believe who are Saved.

Think about this. If something is not efficacious then it doesn't apply. If it is not applied then it is not a fact.

It HAS to be an Absolute Fact that the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ is sufficient for all of the requirements of Salvation. His Work.

If His Atonement, His Blood doesn't save some people then Salvation is by Works, has to be by Works and the bible, especially Paul, is false.

Its too complicated to really argue about but the implications of what people are saying should be Crystal Clear.

 

[Depleted]

Nehemiah,

I completely agreed with your post until tour last line. How is everything that disagrees with a perversion of Scripture?

We both agree that it is an error; but our fellow believers are equally persuaded we are in error.

Perversion carries a strong connotation of intent to do wrong. In most Calvinists I've met I don't find that to be the case.

Calvinists tend to passionately defend dispensationalism. I believe that divine election does NOT involve their definition of predestination; but I regard my belief as THIS MAN's OPINION; and I do NOT consider everyone who disagrees with me perverted.

Dispensationalism revolts me. God did not change his mind at specific dates. He has never changed his mind.

(BTW, not in this to argue. Just in this because I got the impression in your first post that you wanted to know the differences between what you believe and what reformed believes.)

 

[Depleted]

Lynn,

As mentioned earlier, the intent of this post is historical inquiry not a challenge of anyone's belief.

It appeared to me that many churches that refer to themselves as reformed actually have a pre-Reformation foundation that may not be recognized; and I was trying to confirm that I have a correct understanding of what reformed means; because in many instances I suspect it may be an unintentional misnomer.

That's an historic problem with the reformation to begin with. Yeah! Really! Luther went through head changes, like we all do eventually. But he was working with the assumption what he was taught was right except...

The "excepts" multiplied over the years. The 95 Theses was against paying for indulgences of all things. When was the last time anyone ever even argued over that one? It seems so minor compared to the other booboos. lol

Ten years later, he got to Romans 3 where he realized God's righteousness justified, not our ever increasing urgency not to sin. TEN years! Meanwhile, anyone listening to him, (and truthfully just his students and a few others were in that time period) was still stuck back at indulgences.

I don't know if he ever stopped believing in transubstantiation, the rosary, "holy relics." Matter of fact, I think he died thinking those holy relics really meant something.

Meanwhile, one of his student's students was becoming better known in negative ways. Some kid named Calvin!

It has much to do with who they built on. I don't get the early fathers much, but Luther was an Augustinian. Many were Constantinian. Because of that, the church kept growing but directed to what we already built on.

And here's a shocker, most of the church simply followed RCC unless it was something they disagreed with. For instance, notice the arguing here. Do you know why most nondenoms and denoms believe in free will? Because that's what the Catholic church taught way back when, and they really haven't taken on that fight yet. They have taken on the little stuff like transubstantiation, rosaries, and relics. They didn't take on the need for something other than Sola Christus! It is no longer In Christ Alone! It is In Faith, In Grace, In will, but not In Christ! They feel the need to be part of their own salvation, and in that, they fell right back into the RCC minus something called "purgatory." All they got out of what the early fighting was about is you don't have to pay money to be saved! Now you get saved by your own actions (along with a little something-something about God, because he has to be in there somewhere.)

It really did go back to the easiest way imagined -- the Catholic Way -- all dressed up in modern-speak. And that's what everyone is arguing about. BECAUSE very few took on the thoughts of men going thorough some very heady arguments with themselves and God over a long period of time.

By nature, we are lazy. We want answers, and we want them ten minutes before the question ever entered our heads. Luther was a brilliant man. He'd make Einstein feel stupid, had the two had time to meet and talk, and yet even Luther took over 20 years for question formed to answer received. No man has enough time, even at that brilliance level to ask all the right questions and then come up with all the right answers. But Luther kept seeking in the right direction -- God. Meanwhile, people were happy with the first thing he thought (indulgences were not a good idea), and then made a religion out of that.

Look what's happening on here. To this day, everyone KNOWS they were taught the right thing. They don't have to understand it. They just have to make everyone else believe it. So they teach what they've been taught and think that's the answer because it was taught to them as the right answer. Pretty much why so much of the church still looks very Catholic today. No thinking required.

 

[Depleted]

I heard the Gospel, and realized I believed it, and in what Christ has done for me. Then I realized I was forgiven all my wicked sin and was born again.

Errr, something missing there. "Repent" belongs between "...what Christ has done for me" and "Then I realized..."

Just sayin'.

 

[Depleted]

Ok...not wanting to argue either and I am happy to hear your thoughts on this matter.

My thoughts are that sometimes we, me included, can unintentionally cast fear and doubt on others...If we say Jesus didn't die for all and that some have no opportunity at forgiveness... then you can see how the enemy could use that to cast fear and doubt...He knows that we have to believe in order to receive the promises of God...In my opinion this gives him wiggle room to get in and try to cast doubts at others. He knows what scripture says...Whosoever shall believe, as well as any, so his job is to try to dissuade others from believing....and he does this in many ways...

That's my thoughts about it anyhow

We don't think that either.

How many other things will you tell us that we can't think that we already don't think? Because, so far, every time you tell us what the problem is with being Reformed, you haven't taken the time to find out what we DO think. Thus it always looks like "This is what's wrong with them," when it wasn't ever what we thought in the first place.

 

[1ofthem]

We don't think that either.

How many other things will you tell us that we can't think that we already don't think? Because, so far, every time you tell us what the problem is with being Reformed, you haven't taken the time to find out what we DO think. Thus it always looks like "This is what's wrong with them," when it wasn't ever what we thought in the first place.

If you noticed I said this is my thoughts, and then she explained her thoughts and I thanked her for that because she is really one of the very few that even took the time to even explain anything to me about it. Most others I have talked too wouldn't explain anything to me about their beliefs... other than quoting Calvin, some other dude, or giving me one or just half verses.

So yes, I really do appreciate her post to me...

 

[Willie-T]

If a person says they are "Reformed", do they not claim to follow the dictates Calvin stated? And if that is so, is it not very easy to look up what Calvin said..... and thereby know what those people claim to believe?

 

[IamWhoIam]

If a person says they are "Reformed", do they not claim to follow the dictates Calvin stated? And if that is so, is it not very easy to look up what Calvin said..... and thereby know what those people claim to believe?

Good point, I don't think they do follow what John Calvin dictated, example of that is in the title itself.

John Calvin was deeply offended of these statements of him and his doctrine, he was angry at the saying of Calvinism/Calvinist. these words were spoken by the people who apposed his theory, John Calvin was highly against these sayings.
If he was alive today people who say these words, he would probably have sent them to the gallows in Geneva as well.

 

[Willie-T]

Good point, I don't think they do follow what John Calvin dictated, example of that is in the title itself.

John Calvin was deeply offended of these statements of him and his doctrine, he was angry at the saying of Calvinism/Calvinist. these words were spoken by the people who apposed his theory, John Calvin was highly against these sayings.
If he was alive today people who say these words, he would probably have sent them to the gallows in Geneva as well.

Exactly! All "REFORMED" seems to really mean is that it is part of the name on the sign out in front of the building.

Different churches, entirely different meanings of that word.

 

[Magenta]

Repent and believe and you will be saved.

• Repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

For without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If a person says they are "Reformed", do they not claim to follow the dictates Calvin stated? And if that is so, is it not very easy to look up what Calvin said..... and thereby know what those people claim to believe?

This is generally true. However to determine their theology one must look at the various Reformed confessions of faith, such as the Westminster Confession of Faith (you can access it online). Since Reformed Churches expect their members to believe the doctrines in those confessions, they are the "standard" by which to assess Reformed doctrine. Also, there is much with which other Christians would agree, but Calvinism is clearly seen in these confessions.

 

[Locutus]