REFORMED?

[SovereignGrace]

Ppl into today's churches see men not as dead men, but ppl who are...

They say that God tosses all these drowning folk a floatation device, but only those who take hold of it and get dragged to the boat will be saved. Here, catch!

There's only one problem with this scenario...ppl who are lost aren't drowning, but already drowned, already dead, floating on top of the water and can not reach out and grab anything you toss their way.

No way can they exercise their will, their faith, &c. They are dead as a corpse, as nekros used in Ephesians 2:1 avers. It takes God to come and drag them out of the water and bring them to life before they can exercise anything.

After God gives life to the dead sinner, they can then exercise faith and repentance, as they are gifts of God.

As Apostle Paul so aptly wrote And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.[Ephesians 2:1-10]

 

[Depleted]

Brother, if all sins are forgiven, then they're saved. No one whose sins are forgiven will go to hell. Why can't ppl see this?

Either the cross saves or it does not. If we add one thing to this cross, then its the cross + what we did that saves us. The cross, or rather He who hung, bled & died upon it, saved me. I added nothing to this. The only thing I 'brought' to the cross was my sins, as they were imputed to the Christ, who bore them, suffered for them, to save me.

I suspect we believe the same thing, but it was the delivery I disagree with. The cross didn't save me. Jesus on that cross did. Right?

Might sound nitpicky, but I was raised Catholic and was taught literally it was the cross. (And, to be clear, that's not even Catholic doctrine, but for some reasons nuns and priest aren't taught doctrine, so they make up their own, too.)

 

[followjesus]

Amen and Amen!

its strange what a little context does rather than a plucked out verse

1 john 2:1-5 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. "


isnt that an " amen" also now that a bit of the context makes some sense of it? or is it not as good now because it oesnt show up as an unconditional relationship? One verse theology destroys believers.

 

[Depleted]

Think of it like a codicil on a will. The benefits are available to the one to whom they are offered but only on the terms of the person giving them.

In some ways, I agree with you, but only because one of hubby's buddy's experience.

The buddy's grandmother left him her house when she died. He didn't want the house. Tough. It was still his house. He handed the keys over to his parents, who took care of that house until they died. Then he got stuck with the fact it was still his house.

The conditions were plain -- his grandmother left him her house. Rejecting it never changed a thing. So, on that we are agreed that God gives us God whether we want him or not. BUT did he really give that to everyone? Because, if he did, that is called universalism.

In my belief, God gave some himself. And, although we never wanted him, once we're given him the light goes on and we want him.

 

[Depleted]

About the least thing He could require of us: Faith.

Which is to say that he gave you a buck, but you gave him a penny. I get you know we got the better deal out of this, but I think the bookkeeping is off. We didn't even have the penny to give him. He gave us the penny (faith) too.

We're totally, utterly bankrupt with no hope to ever get in the black. Never to have a penny earned in our favor -- ever. And yet, the Lord balanced the sheet by giving us everything. We went from bankrupt and disabled (as in never-gonna-be-able-to-earn-anything-good) to princes of the King of the Universe. His choice. His doing. His ability.

Not ours.

Ahhhh, come on! Even if you disagree, you got to admit, it's a really good deal!

 

[Depleted]

So, conditional forgiveness? Where's this taught in the bible?

On that cross!

Even I think forgiveness is conditional. But Jesus met the conditions to forgive us.

 

[followjesus]

On that cross!

Even I think forgiveness is conditional. But Jesus met the conditions to forgive us.

so what happens if a forgiven believer continues on willfully in sin? are they still forgiven? Heres the thing with the cross and forgiveness, i know u know the book of romans.

romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

so when a believer comes to Jesus, yes they are forgiven for the sins they have commited. a huge difference is that there is nowhere you will find that this means anything they now do is forgiven, its about the sins that are passed. here it is again

Hebrews 9:15 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."


so what of the person who refuses to repent and continues on in thier sins?

hebrews 10: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


same principle is found throughout the word, being forgiven of our past sins, is in no way in any form a liscence to go on sinning without consequence. same concept if we accept Gos forgiveness, and then refuse to forgive others. the "parable of the unforgiving debtor" its strange How so many refuse whats plainly written and accept what isnt really there. Gods forgiveness is plenty and readily available, our part has to be repentance and obedience and were have the spirit of God so thats no longer an impossible feat.

 

[Depleted]

The gift is salvation, not repentance (Rom 6:23). We receive that gift when we have faith in the gospel.


We are born again when we hear the gospel and choose to believe it (Eph 1:13; Rom 10:9).

The GIFT is God himself. He calls, he chooses, he redeems, he forgives, he gives us faith, he gives us the desire to repent, he sanctifies us, he glorifies us.

I really get you don't want to change your mind, and I don't think this is one of those things where it is necessary to, (because God saves, knowledge doesn't.) However, I also don't think you understand where we're coming at this. And I feel bad for you, because I really do get where you're coming from. Because of this, it's kind of like trying to play a game of checkers with someone who has no idea how to play the game. (And, yeah, neither one of this thinks it's a game, so don't think I'm downplaying this.)

For your edification -- not even to try and convince you to change your mind, just trying to get you to see what we're talking about -- how about reading on what we're really talking about? It's called The Order of Salvation. If for no other reason then to get you to understand the differences in what we believe, so we don't keep going round and round.

AND then, if you're interested we can go right back to arguing, but over that instead. At least we can get the background to argue. (And, honestly. I think that would be fun to argue.)

 

[Depleted]

Per John 3 Jesus lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Per John 12:32 God draws them to Jesus.

Per John 16 the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment.

Grace is given without merit on the part of the receiver. Mercy withholds what we do merit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Boy! You really misread John 3.

 

[Depleted]

1) If you believe in Jesus Christ whom God has sent you receive forgiveness. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
2) If you do not believe - you are condemned and do not receive forgiveness - but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

There is the condition . . . if one does not believe in Jesus Christ, one does not receive forgiveness - if one believes in Jesus Christ, one receives forgiveness.

Did Jesus shed his blood for the remission of sins? Yes. Is that forgiveness available for all? Yes. How does one receive the forgiveness? through belief (faith) in Jesus Christ

You forgot "3)." Read past John 3:16 to John 3:21. It tells 1), 2), and 3).
Jesus is willing. Man is not. The Father changes that for some.

 

[Depleted]

People are going to believe what they choose to believe.

At least one side of this seemingly never ending debate between Calvinists and Arminians is going to discover they were dead wrong.

I stand for choice, as I am convinced that's what the Bible teaches.

It's sad that some cannot seem to defend their position without sarcasm and insults.

If you think this comes down to "dead wrong," you've missed the whole point -- God!

And if you think you haven't been insulting? Boy! You missed what insulting is too.

 

[Prov910]

so what happens if a forgiven believer continues on willfully in sin? are they still forgiven?

<snip>

so what of the person who refuses to repent and continues on in thier sins?

If they continue sinning, I don't think it's a matter of refusing to repent again. It's that they did not repent in the first place.

My understanding is that, if you truly repent, you begin to hate sin. So a person might say they repented. They might even be baptized. But if they continue in their sinning ways, it's clear that they did not truly repent in the first place.

=========================

Someone will undoubtedly point out that none of us is entirely without sin--even those who have repented. So I'll also mention that (I think that) once you repent, the nature of your sin changes. Your sins will be inadvertent things that are more difficult to control. Sure you might trip up once in a while. But you won't purposefully sin. Your inadvertent sins will be things like speaking harshly to another, getting angry, or seeing an attractive woman on the street and having lustful thoughts. It's my opinion that a person who has repented will be less likely to steal or murder or engage in adultery. (Okay, time for someone to mention King David. lol)

/jmho

 

[Depleted]

When you define a Greek word differently than the four most respected lexicographers do then we are no longer speaking the same language however similar the words may appear.

I don't question your sincerity or your integrity. I do question whether anyone you disagree with is able to persuade you of anything.

Ummm, it's Greek to me! Sorry, but I don't get Greek any better than I get ancient Chinese. I don't get any language but English, and I'm a bit iffy on English sometimes. So, are you saying Greek saves? Because, if so, I'm a goner.

As for SG's ability to be persuaded? He's reformed! The chances of someone being born and raised into reformed are less than the chances of calling who will be in the next Super Bowl if suddenly there were 500 NFL teams. Reformed! Trust me -- not likely any of us weren't persuaded already by good arguments.

There's a reason I was Arminian for a good number of years after being saved. Come to the Lord, then go find a church, and nine out of ten times, the church you first step into is going to be Arminian. And then we learn it and believe it.

So, what do you think caused us to walk out other than good persuasion?

You can call us many things, but one thing you can't call us is unpersuadable.

You can give up, if you want, (and, honestly, I thought this thread was about finding out where you fit on the chart, not about convincing others to believe how you believe), but do not lay it down as anyone else's fault.

I'm no good at pursuading either, so, yeah, not a problem with giving up. But that's my problem, not someone else's problem.

I still believe you are my brother in Christ, but right about now, I feel like you pulled a bait-and-switch on me. On us! And now you're blaming us for not buying it?

I'm not buying it, because it took years before I was persuaded to Reformed, so I had no intention in changing back. Can't! I really do get God chose the foolish and the weak, and I'm very glad he did, because I am both. I did NOT earn salvation in any form. I cannot earn salvation in any form. I'm foolish and weak! I NEED God to change me, because I can't. I NEED him to love me, because I'm not worthy of his love. I NEED him to take care of me, because I can't! I NEED him!

And SG and P4T? They did come here to argue for Reformed. And in doing that, you gave them no reason to switch.

So bait-and-switch simply doesn't work when you don't offer something better than what we already have. That's not on us! That's on your sales tactics and merchandise. Don't go blaming that on everyone else!

 

[followjesus]

If they continue sinning, I don't think it's a matter of refusing to repent again. It's that they did not repent in the first place.

My understanding is that, if you truly repent, you begin to hate sin. So a person might say they repented. They might even be baptized. But if they continue in their sinning ways, it's clear that they did not truly repent in the first place.

=========================

Someone will undoubtedly point out that none of us is entirely without sin--even those who have repented. So I'll also mention that (I think that) once you repent, the nature of your sin changes. Your sins will be inadvertent things that are more difficult to control. Sure you might trip up once in a while. But you won't purposefully sin. Your inadvertent sins will be things like speaking harshly to another, getting angry, or seeing an attractive woman on the street and having lustful thoughts. It's my opinion that a person who has repented will be less likely to steal or murder or engage in adultery. (Okay, time for someone to mention King David. lol)

/jmho

yes exactly my point, repentance is the condition for forgiveness for ongoing sin. One would dig a scripture that says " you are saved by Grace so no one can boast" as an argument against repentance because its something that we do. God doesnt repent of sin for us, thats a choice we make based on the Love of God poured out through Jesus to us. if Jesus dying for our sin, doesnt cause a real powerful conviction to begin repentance from sin....simply and frankly we Just dont Love Jesus truthfully.


sort of Like if im married and i tell my wife i love you daily, but my actions are saying " I dont care about you at all" because i treat her bad, lie to Her, cheat on Her, slap Her around, insult her ect....... sincerity is always evident in the action, this excluding the occasional mistake, but the consistant actions is where truth is found.


forgiveness and reconciliation happened for all the world when Jesus gave Himself, salvation comes to those who accept and respond accordingly to His sacrifice, the Highest of all ransoms ever paid. this said, sin is something that we have to be aware of before we can repent of it. One person who doesnt really understand that lying is a sin, will never repent because they dont understand its wrong. as we grow and persevere Gods Word comes to life and begins to change our thinking and because we truly believe, those new thoughts become engrained in us, becoming part of our nature.

to me, i will most Likely find something to repent of next week, and again next year and probably ten , 20 years from Now. But to me its Just all about today, yesterday i cant change, and I have already asked forgiveness based on the Lords sacrifice, and tomorrow i do not Know if i will even be on earth, the Only thing i can do is wake up, pray earnestly lay myself down and strap up with my cross and follow the Word of God as it is Given to Me,

I personally am a huge believer in One day at a time, its all we really have a choice in so will i live my life Just today, just for 24 Hours will i walk in the things of God? or will i walk after the deceit of the world around me of which i used to be a part of and thrive in? will i walk past the needy man i see today and turn my head the other way? or will i go out of my way to offer some form of Love and Help to Him? will i lie to get that Job i need? or will i speak the truth and trust God to Land me the Job i need?

will I gossip? or will i encourage and defend? will I Look at women with Lust in My heart? or will i see all people in truth as Beautiful children of God? will I hate, or will i love? will i avoid of will i reach out to Help? One day to me has enough Blessing, and obstacles, enough cares and concerns, duties and opportunities to walk in the Love of the Lord Jesus who Gave His Life that I may Live another day.

 

[Depleted]

All are in the same boat when they are offered the good news - the gospel - Some believe what they hear some do not. Some reach the point of repentance through godly sorrow and are truly sorrowful for their life of sin, want to be cleansed by the blood of Christ so they turn from that, i.e. repent. They believe in the only begotten Son of God - they believe that Jesus died and God raised him from the dead - they are born again.

That's not what Jesus said in John 3:17-21. He said it was given but none of us wanted it. We preferred the darkness. And then he said the Father changes that. (Wrought it. One time I like KJV better than ESV. Good word -- wrought.)

 

[Depleted]

It is not her job to know that Since God has not seen fit to reveal it.

It is her job not to pull one sentence out of a paragraph/speech/fuller answer.

One thing common in Arminian beliefs -- keep John 3:16 and ignore 17-21.

 

[Depleted]

I don't build doctrine on a single verse. Scripture must agree with scripture

Jn 5:20-23
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
KJV

This passage is not addressing how people come to Salvation it is establishing Jesus' authority.

Well, when his authority is he gives life to whom he wills, isn't that one and the same thing? I've been studying John recently. I'm only to the 10th chapter but I'm gobsmacked how often Jesus out and out told everyone he IS God! He is the gate! He is the way! He only does what the Father does. He IS God! What in the world is his authority for if it's got diddly squat to do with saved?

 

[Depleted]

Somehow this aspect that God ultimately wills some to damnation, never giving them the gift of belief to believe, is never addressed?

We've addressed it. So how do you address it? You know not all are saved. Why wouldn't God ave all?

If your child/parent was in a burning building and didn't want to get out, would you say, "Oh, well. Their choice. Not up to me to do anything about it?" Or would you try to save him/her anyway?

Now you're just a person, so you might not survive, and you might not be able to pull someone out who didn't want to go. But God is God! So, please tell me how you deal with he really doesn't save everyone? Do you go with "oh well, he just couldn't, because they didn't want to?" Or do you dare ask, "Well, why not?"

We get why. What do you believe? Because we have answered, and your side never does.

 

[followjesus]

We've addressed it. So how do you address it? You know not all are saved. Why wouldn't God ave all?

If your child/parent was in a burning building and didn't want to get out, would you say, "Oh, well. Their choice. Not up to me to do anything about it?" Or would you try to save him/her anyway?

Now you're just a person, so you might not survive, and you might not be able to pull someone out who didn't want to go. But God is God! So, please tell me how you deal with he really doesn't save everyone? Do you go with "oh well, he just couldn't, because they didn't want to?" Or do you dare ask, "Well, why not?"

We get why. What do you believe? Because we have answered, and your side never does.

suppose you have a billion choldren and you run in and carry them one by One out of the fire, then you sternly explain and warn them " DO NOT GO RUNNING BACK INTO THE BUILDING IT IS GETTING READY TO COLLAPSE" what Happens then if they go running back into the building when you pulled them out, and thouroughly warned them to not go back in? is it then that you have failed to save them? or did you do your part and they just like the smel lof smoke and the heat of the fire even when you explained it will kill you dont go back in?


at some point accountability comes Because of what Jesus did, if we choose sin being made free its not Gods fault or His blame because He didnt save us and instruct us thouroughly. Judgement is never once stated that the cross will be judged or what Jesus did is what were judged By, new and Old testaments make plain each person is accountable for thier own works, thier own words, Because Jesus brought us to God we have no excuses left. Our past sins dont seperate us from Him anymore, its when we miss the mire, and Leave His presence to go wallow in it.

 

[notuptome]

We've addressed it. So how do you address it? You know not all are saved. Why wouldn't God ave all?

If your child/parent was in a burning building and didn't want to get out, would you say, "Oh, well. Their choice. Not up to me to do anything about it?" Or would you try to save him/her anyway?

Now you're just a person, so you might not survive, and you might not be able to pull someone out who didn't want to go. But God is God! So, please tell me how you deal with he really doesn't save everyone? Do you go with "oh well, he just couldn't, because they didn't want to?" Or do you dare ask, "Well, why not?"

We get why. What do you believe? Because we have answered, and your side never does.

Men choose to reject Christ because they love their evil more than the righteousness of Christ. Jesus tells you so in John 3:18-21. it's not really difficult to comprehend.

For the cause of Christ
Roger