The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[Snoozy]

Gods effectual call cannot be resisted. It has to be effectual or else no man would ever be united to Christ. cf John 6:44; Philippians 2:13.

But God calls all men to repent, men don't, so God leaves them to it (read Romans 1 and 2), that is different from saying man constrains God! Plus John 3:19, right after 'for God so loved the world'.

We see the difference in the general call and the effectual call in the space of one short verse:

Matt 22:14 For many are called but few are chosen.

yes as i thought. ok.

romans is interesting. can u tell me the parts where it speaks about conscience? saying where gentiles who are without the law do by nature things contained in the law? if total depravity is so bad how can they by NATURE do things contained in the law? and their conscience bearing witness? isnt conscience supposed to be all evil?

 

[phil36]

Well said! However there is a position between Arminianism and Limited Atonement.

God's omniscience requires that God knew before He created Adam that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit.

We are told in passed in 2 Pe 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV


We know from Rv 19:6
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
KJV
That God is able to order and arrange things according to His will.

What then can explain why omnipotent God would allow His will, as expressed in 2 Pe 3:9, to be thwarted?

The only explanation that makes any sense Is that God wants something else more than He desires that all should come to repentance; which could not be possible if all were caused to come to repentance.

We see in Mt 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
KJV

That God places great importance on man having capacity to love. If man did not have the capacity to love, neither of the two primary commandments would have any meaning.

It is the nature of love that love cannot be programmed and must be volitional.

God's desire for a creature with the capacity to Love required that He accept a creature with the capacity to spurn and reject love. Even God's omnipotence can not overcome an inherent contradiction. Nothing can be white while it is black' or true while it is false.

God allows man to have the capacity to sin in order that he might also have the capacity to love.


Jesus took upon Himself the consequence of all men's and all women's sin in order that every person would once again have the capacity to receive and return God's love or reject it for him/her self.

God, being indeed sovereign, can base His election of who will be saved on any criteria of His choice; or even on His whim.

I believe that God has chosen to base His election on how each person responds to what Jesus has done for him or her.

A person cannot will himself/herself saved without accepting Jesus claims of Lordship (Ownership) over his/her life.

Hi MarcR,

Thanks for your well thought out response. But I feel it falls down in your exegesis of the Petrine text. Peter is referring to those whom are the beloved. here is what he says.

This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Saviour through your apostles,3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming?

Peter is stirring them up in faith and reminding them that God is faithful and will deliver, he goes on to say in verse 8:

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.9 The Lord is not slow to fulfil his promise as some count slowness, but is patient towards you,[a] not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.

The promise Peter is referring to is the promise to the beloved that Christ will indeed consummate the Kingdom (parousia). Peter is not referring to God waiting like a love sick boy hoping that the girl who dumped him might come back.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

marcR===

That God places great importance on man having capacity to love. If man did not have the capacity to love, neither of the two primary commandments would have any meaning.

Infact that is why God gave the commandments to show the people how sinful they actually where, if it where not for the law how would they know what sin was. You can follow Pauls great argument in regarding this in Romans. Under the old economy, they had to follow rules and regulations. God was teaching them it was a heart issue, that is why Paul can say of God in relation to God's Mosaic covenant:

This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

In the New Covenant only those who are renewed by the Holy Spirit can love God with all his heart soul and mind, now that the Old covenant is gone.

 

[phil36]

yes as i thought. ok.

romans is interesting. can u tell me the parts where it speaks about conscience? saying where gentiles who are without the law do by nature things contained in the law? if total depravity is so bad how can they by NATURE do things contained in the law? and their conscience bearing witness? isnt conscience supposed to be all evil?

Romans 2:14ff

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

When Paul says 'excuse them' we already know what he means as he has stated it already here:

Romans 1:32:

Though they know God's decree that those who practise such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practise them.

If you read Romans Ch 1,2 and up to 3:20 you will see Paul is building the argument that no one is righteous neither Jew nor Gentile and no one seeks after God, Again, Jesus tells us the same thing in John 3. Jesus tells us that men will not come into the light as they love their darkness.

 

[Snoozy]

Romans 2:14ff

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

When Paul says 'excuse them' we already know what he means as he has stated it already here:

Romans 1:32:

Though they know God's decree that those who practise such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practise them.

If you read Romans Ch 1,2 and up to 3:20 you will see Paul is building the argument that no one is righteous neither Jew nor Gentile and no one seeks after God, Again, Jesus tells us the same thing in John 3. Jesus tells us that men will not come into the light as they love their darkness.

thanks it makes sense. ur a nice guy hey.

is there any bible for what matthew henry said in your profile?

• "What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

 

[shrume]

Luke 7:30) But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Yep they certainly rejected God's ways for them.. I think it be very foolish to think man constrains God.

You don't get it. God wanted them to be baptized by John. They rejected what God wanted them to do. IOW, by the freedom of their will they said "no" to God.

Hopefully you don't believe your will constrains Gods?

People do things contrary to what God wants them to do all the time.

 

[phil36]

You don't get it. God wanted them to be baptized by John. They rejected what God wanted them to do. IOW, by the freedom of their will they said "no" to God.


People do things contrary to what God wants them to do all the time.

Hi shrume,

You are totally correct. they chose to reject God because it was their nature to do so.. I think both John and Jesus called them a brood of vipers. But none the less, they did not constrain God's will. He already knew they would rejected Him!

 

[shrume]

Hi shrume,

You are totally correct. they chose to reject God because it was their nature to do so.. I think both John and Jesus called them a brood of vipers. But none the less, they did not constrain God's will. He already knew they would rejected Him!

They did constrain God's will. He wanted them to do something. They chose not to do it.

God want's all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). That is God's will. So why won't everyone be saved? Because they choose not to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

We are to pray for God's will to be done on earth. If God's will always comes to pass, why did Jesus tell us to pray for it?

 

[phil36]

thanks it makes sense. ur a nice guy hey.

is there any bible for what matthew henry said in your profile?

• "What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

Hi Snoozy,

What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done:

Ephesians 2:1ff

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.4 But[b] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


And I think the next phrase is sort self explanatory: He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..

We can only come in faith to walk in love and Holiness by the inworking power of the Holy Spirit:

Romans 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.

Galatians 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Basically Matthew Henry is saying that unless God renews the man the man never will. Even in our walk, its the the Holy Spirit renewing our mind through the reading and soaking in God's word that keeps our mind set on the things of the Spirit and not the flesh. And it is all a free gift grace, totally unmerited. Amazing grace indeed.

 

[shrume]

The Calvinism is thick in here...

 

[notuptome]

Hi shrume,

You are totally correct. they chose to reject God because it was their nature to do so.. I think both John and Jesus called them a brood of vipers. But none the less, they did not constrain God's will. He already knew they would rejected Him!

Then you remove the responsibility of man in the matter of sin. If it is nature then man is not responsible. Simple lack of understanding.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Calvinism is thick in here...

What is evident here (and it is not just Calvinism) is that once a person is infected with the virus of false doctrine, there is no remedy. That does not mean that the truth cannot or should not be presented. What it means is that it will fall on deaf ears.

 

[notuptome]

Hi roger,

Yes Christ is the light of the world, but you see we need to take into account all of what scripture says, and this comes right after 'for God so loved the world':

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed

So the above answers your first paragraph.

Regarding your second paragraph. All make a choice.. a real valid choice. But what does scripture teach us.. Mankind desires and loves his darkness. Man hates the light and WILL not come into it!!!! Jesus' words not mine!


regarding your last sentence in the second paragraph.. All men already know something about God (read Romans 1 and 2). And then re-read John chapter 3. Oh and BTW John 16:8-11 does not say the Holy Spirit will bring EVERY man to confront the righteousness of God. What it does say is that the Holy Spirit will prove the world wrong. there's a huge difference Roger.


Your last paragraph is unanswerable as it doesn't describe Calvinism.. I don't know what you think it describes.

The question is does Calvinism form your gospel or does the gospel form your Calvinism?

Calvinism forces the gospel to go where is does not fully represent the glory of God.

Were it not for mercy none would be saved and all would be condemned.

Christ said if He were lifted up He would draw all men unto Himself. He was lifted up on the cross.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[phil36]

Then you remove the responsibility of man in the matter of sin. If it is nature then man is not responsible. Simple lack of understanding.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hi roger thats a false assumption. You need to carefully read Romans especially here:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonouring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.

 

[shrume]

What is evident here (and it is not just Calvinism) is that once a person is infected with the virus of false doctrine, there is no remedy.

That's not true. People can change what they believe. Sometimes it's difficult, but it can be done.

That does not mean that the truth cannot or should not be presented. What it means is that it will fall on deaf ears.

Not always.

 

[notuptome]

Hi roger thats a false assumption. You need to carefully read Romans especially here:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonouring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.

Romans 1 makes all men accountable to God. Yes some even many will by the hardness of their hearts be given over to the reprobate heart but God still confronts all men with His righteousness. It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. It has been well said that there is a need in every mans heart that only God can fill. God made man with a heart that seeks to know God. Some will seek in nature and some will seek in religion but all have a need to seek.

God has concluded all in unbelief that He, God, might have mercy upon all.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[phil36]

Romans 1 makes all men accountable to God. Yes some even many will by the hardness of their hearts be given over to the reprobate heart but God still confronts all men with His righteousness. It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. It has been well said that there is a need in every mans heart that only God can fill. God made man with a heart that seeks to know God. Some will seek in nature and some will seek in religion but all have a need to seek.

God has concluded all in unbelief that He, God, might have mercy upon all.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And yet:

Romans 3:9b-11

[FONT=&quot] For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.[/FONT]
[/FONT]


That is why God has to renew mans heart or he will never be able to see, never mind seek - John 1:13; 1 John 5:1.

Without the heart being regenerated no man will have faith.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

God is constrained by His nature.

and this goes right back to the doctrine of God and people clinging to manmade doctrines, such as Calvinism, because they do not understand how against the Character of God Calvinism actually is

you cannot convince people, it seems, to study these fundamental basics that constrain our own thoughts about God

 

[fredoheaven]

Those who are dead cannot raise themselves. They cannot hear nor see they are spiritually dead and love their sin and even love to see others sin. No man will ever seek God. It is only by God sovereignly renewing the mans heart and open His eyes.

God opens the eyes and renews the hearts..the dead man plays no part in it until he see's... only and only then can he believe. This shows that yes the atonement is sufficient for all but,t is only efficacious to those whom God freely chooses.

We have to remember that God's will is NEVER constrained by mans, yet mans is by God's!

Romans 5.6 ...Christ died for the ungodly.
And who are the ungodly? Elect or non elect? The scripture of truth says both. For all have sinned.

 

[notuptome]

And yet:

Romans 3:9b-11

For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.



That is why God has to renew mans heart or he will never be able to see, never mind seek - John 1:13; 1 John 5:1.

Without the heart being regenerated no man will have faith.

John 1:11 the elect rejected Him.

When those bidden to the feast made excuse that they could not attend the Master sent forth into the highways to furnish His feast with guests.

The gospel is the gospel for all men not just the select few. God is merciful and presents an opportunity to be saved to every soul that comes into the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SovereignGrace]

thanks it makes sense. ur a nice guy hey.

is there any bible for what matthew henry said in your profile?

• "What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

Brother, I truly appreciate the attitude you express on here. Whether you end up in agreement with our beliefs or not, you are our Brother in the Christ. May He richly bless you my Brother.