The Gross Error of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
If the promises of God and the Work of Christ are for ALL men then all men are saved. The Atonement is unlimited.
If the promises of God and the Work of Christ are LIMITED to those who believe then only those who believe are saved. The Atonement is therefore limited.
All you have to do is pick which one you believe. You can't have both. You can't have 1/2 of Christs work for everyone but the other half is only for believers.
The Lord Jesus Christ doesn't get us half way there and then expect us to climb up the other half.
Romans 3:21-26
[FONT="]21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:[/FONT]
[FONT="]25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;[/FONT]
[FONT="]26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.[/FONT]
If the promises of God and the Work of Christ are LIMITED to those who believe then only those who believe are saved. The Atonement is therefore limited.
All you have to do is pick which one you believe. You can't have both. You can't have 1/2 of Christs work for everyone but the other half is only for believers.
The Lord Jesus Christ doesn't get us half way there and then expect us to climb up the other half.
Romans 3:21-26
[FONT="]21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;[/FONT]
[FONT="]24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:[/FONT]
[FONT="]25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;[/FONT]
[FONT="]26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.[/FONT]
It amazes me that those who quote 1 Timothy 2:1-4; 2 Peter 3:9; Matthew 23:37 to ad nauseam never learn anything about the passages in context and not only this, they incessantly misuse them in defense of their Universalist tendencies that all sins have been paid in full, and that God's intention and desire, unfulfilled, is that every single human would be saved.
God does not have any unfulfilled desires or decrees. To believe the opposite shows a truncated and domesticated view of God. God's plan, decrees, will are all perfect, revealed and unthwarted.
Just as the sacrifices in the OT were intended only for the Israelites (and possibly for those sojourners brought into the camp Exodus 12:48-49, Leviticus 19:34, a picture of Gentile salvation) the sacrifice of Christ is only for his people which is composed of Jew and Gentile, thus the NT term "whole world."
It did not pay for the sins of those who will be lost eternally.
God does not have any unfulfilled desires or decrees. To believe the opposite shows a truncated and domesticated view of God. God's plan, decrees, will are all perfect, revealed and unthwarted.
Just as the sacrifices in the OT were intended only for the Israelites (and possibly for those sojourners brought into the camp Exodus 12:48-49, Leviticus 19:34, a picture of Gentile salvation) the sacrifice of Christ is only for his people which is composed of Jew and Gentile, thus the NT term "whole world."
It did not pay for the sins of those who will be lost eternally.
Calvin would reject the extremes to which modern Calvinists have driven the religious system called Calvinism.
Calvin like the other reformers rejected Romanism yet he had some vestiges that were not widely accepted among the other reformers.
A good book to read is the "Other Side of Calvinism" by Laurence Vance. It 's not a dime store work so it will take real effort to wade through it.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Calvin like the other reformers rejected Romanism yet he had some vestiges that were not widely accepted among the other reformers.
A good book to read is the "Other Side of Calvinism" by Laurence Vance. It 's not a dime store work so it will take real effort to wade through it.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Hi Roger,
You seem to have changed your tune, you first stated this:
Originally Posted by notuptome
Given what Calvinism teaches today even John Calvin would reject it.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Now you are saying just the 'extremes', and here is the problem with your posts. You make blanket subjective assertions without telling us what it these assertions are, like 'extremes'. What extremes?
The you ramble of on a tangent about some leftover vestiges of RC.
So lets go back to your original blanket statement: Clavin would reject what modern Calvinism teaches.
Back it up please with proof.
And secondly, regarding your changed stance, what 'extremes'? Proof please.
You seem to have changed your tune, you first stated this:
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Now you are saying just the 'extremes', and here is the problem with your posts. You make blanket subjective assertions without telling us what it these assertions are, like 'extremes'. What extremes?
The you ramble of on a tangent about some leftover vestiges of RC.
So lets go back to your original blanket statement: Clavin would reject what modern Calvinism teaches.
Back it up please with proof.
And secondly, regarding your changed stance, what 'extremes'? Proof please.
Your tenacity awaiting proof is commendable. I've yet to see Roger offer any evidence to his accusations leveled against Calvinist's. Yet this practice is common among those who oppose the truths known as the Doctrines of Grace - the large majority of them never offer any proof, just unsubstantiated claims, and the foolish accept their claims without evidence, wholeheartedly. 
Buy the book and study it. Calvin revised his institutes as he got older. He really got nastier with age not that I see him as loving from the start. I do not blame him as the fight with Rome was nasty and people were being martyred for their opposition to Rome.
Calvin taught total depravity. This has now grown to total inability. It is true that man cannot save himself. Total depravity. It is not true that man cannot respond to the gospel. Total inability.
Modern Calvinists are driving a religious doctrine that does not have the love of Christ at the forefront. It over compensates for universalism and Arminianism.
I was saved for a number of years before I was ever exposed to this debate between Calvinism and Arminianism. I remember a day when the church invested its time in praying for sinners and weeping for souls to be saved. Instead of influencing society and bringing men to Christ we are dividing ourselves along religious lines and reflecting the divisions in our society. We are not healing we are deepening the wounds.
Calvinism verses Arminianism. Cessationism verses Pentecostalism. Eternal security verses loss of salvation. Water baptism verses salvation by grace. The bible is the word of God or the bible contains the word of God.
I'm weary of all this nonsense.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Calvin taught total depravity. This has now grown to total inability. It is true that man cannot save himself. Total depravity. It is not true that man cannot respond to the gospel. Total inability.
Modern Calvinists are driving a religious doctrine that does not have the love of Christ at the forefront. It over compensates for universalism and Arminianism.
I was saved for a number of years before I was ever exposed to this debate between Calvinism and Arminianism. I remember a day when the church invested its time in praying for sinners and weeping for souls to be saved. Instead of influencing society and bringing men to Christ we are dividing ourselves along religious lines and reflecting the divisions in our society. We are not healing we are deepening the wounds.
Calvinism verses Arminianism. Cessationism verses Pentecostalism. Eternal security verses loss of salvation. Water baptism verses salvation by grace. The bible is the word of God or the bible contains the word of God.
I'm weary of all this nonsense.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
talofa
i dont have a tulip or any system like that. i will probably regret writing this and will get made fun of or ridiculed but here it goes i will give what i believe. i can speak much better than i can write so bear that in mind:
man has a choice to make and while spiritually dead God's grace is revealed to all people titus 2:11. i believe this is what all the verses to turn repent and believe and the pleading of God and apostles and prophets to the people are all about. Paul wished to be cut off from Christ for the israelites sake.
i believe in election but i think u make a mistake when u say that election is always for salvation. there are elect angels and israel is called God's elect too.
Paul said there were some called elect who werent saved but wanted to preach so they might be saved. he also wrote that some jews forbid him from speaking to gentiles so they might be saved. peter also says make ur election and calling sure.
i believe Jesus died for all peopel but only the ones who repent and believe will be saved. its not universalism because what happens when they dont believe and repent? then they trampled the blood of the son of God like hebrews 10:29 says which is impossible in calvinist limited atonement since Christ dindt even die for those guys.
God says He isnt happy when people die in their sins even u guys admit that so thats the thing. God wants everyone to get saved.
some people did resist God's will like in acts 7:51 and luke 7:30. this is where both are wrong again. one side says they never resist like in romans and one side they always can like in those other passages. truth is that if God says for example i will create new heavens and new earth, or Jesus returns on *this* day. those things no one can resist. or if God raptures someone like Enoch. Or teleports someone like Philip in the book of acts. but if God tells people turn ye turn ye repent come to me people of Israel then people can resist. why? is God weak? no but because God has decided to do things this way. God gave us sovereignly that choice i believe bible teaches it.
i believe that once ur truly redeemed u will stay redeemed. there are some verses that i struggle with for now dont know what dispensation to put em in, but i believe in eternal security for the saved.
i dont have a tulip or any system like that. i will probably regret writing this and will get made fun of or ridiculed but here it goes i will give what i believe. i can speak much better than i can write so bear that in mind:
man has a choice to make and while spiritually dead God's grace is revealed to all people titus 2:11. i believe this is what all the verses to turn repent and believe and the pleading of God and apostles and prophets to the people are all about. Paul wished to be cut off from Christ for the israelites sake.
i believe in election but i think u make a mistake when u say that election is always for salvation. there are elect angels and israel is called God's elect too.
Paul said there were some called elect who werent saved but wanted to preach so they might be saved. he also wrote that some jews forbid him from speaking to gentiles so they might be saved. peter also says make ur election and calling sure.
i believe Jesus died for all peopel but only the ones who repent and believe will be saved. its not universalism because what happens when they dont believe and repent? then they trampled the blood of the son of God like hebrews 10:29 says which is impossible in calvinist limited atonement since Christ dindt even die for those guys.
God says He isnt happy when people die in their sins even u guys admit that so thats the thing. God wants everyone to get saved.
some people did resist God's will like in acts 7:51 and luke 7:30. this is where both are wrong again. one side says they never resist like in romans and one side they always can like in those other passages. truth is that if God says for example i will create new heavens and new earth, or Jesus returns on *this* day. those things no one can resist. or if God raptures someone like Enoch. Or teleports someone like Philip in the book of acts. but if God tells people turn ye turn ye repent come to me people of Israel then people can resist. why? is God weak? no but because God has decided to do things this way. God gave us sovereignly that choice i believe bible teaches it.
i believe that once ur truly redeemed u will stay redeemed. there are some verses that i struggle with for now dont know what dispensation to put em in, but i believe in eternal security for the saved.
Hi Roger,
Thanks for your post but again it is both lacking and very ignorant. take for example:
Here you show absolute and sheer ignorance.. Total depravity teaches man is totally unable or has no ability to save himself (inability).
Lets have a look at the rest of your post:
Again, blanket subjective assertions.. But lets take a look at the start of your post:
First of the book you have provided does not prove your subjective - proofless statements. the book is basically a polemic against Calvinism. It does not answer your still unproven hypothesis that Calvin would reject modern reformed teaching.
As with all works, they get updated as time goes on. To use that Calvin updated his works is a very weak argument on your part..AND still has no bearing on your claim that Calvin would reject modern reformed teaching.
So back to your original statement Roger. We are all still awaiting for your proof that Calvin would reject modern reformed teaching. Remember Roger it is not very christian to be dishonest.
Plenty of evidence to prove the falsity of the Five Points of Calvinism has been provided, but that makes no difference to dyed-in-the-wool Calvinists. Scripture is supposed to be the final authority for Christians, but even when clear Scriptures are presented they are rejected or their meaning is reinterpreted through Calvinistic glasses.
Let's take the issue of the election and predestination of some for salvation. Calvinism DENIES that God desires the salvation of all human beings, and instead has elected only some for salvation.
Now here is a passage which plainly states that God desires the salvation of all, since Christ became the ransom for all.
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Timothy 2:1-6).
So what is this Scripture teaching us?
1. Christians are to pray for all men (all human beings).
2. God desires that all men (all human beings) should be saved.
3. Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all (all human beings).
This one passage alone thoroughly refutes and repudiates "Unconditional Election" (some are elected for salvation), so what do Calvinists do? They change the meaning and say that what God really desires is the salvation of ALL KINDS of men. And that is a gross contradiction of Scripture, since that is patently false. If this passage meant merely all kinds of men (which would then allow Calvinists to continue believing their false doctrine) then we would not have this Scripture (Acts 17:30):
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent
Does "all men everywhere" mean all of humanity? It certainly does. So what should be the response of Calvinists?
PROPER RESPONSE AFTER SCRIPTURE IS GIVE: "Our man-made doctrine is false. We refuse to hold to this nonsense".
Let's take the issue of the election and predestination of some for salvation. Calvinism DENIES that God desires the salvation of all human beings, and instead has elected only some for salvation.
Now here is a passage which plainly states that God desires the salvation of all, since Christ became the ransom for all.
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Timothy 2:1-6).
So what is this Scripture teaching us?
1. Christians are to pray for all men (all human beings).
2. God desires that all men (all human beings) should be saved.
3. Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all (all human beings).
This one passage alone thoroughly refutes and repudiates "Unconditional Election" (some are elected for salvation), so what do Calvinists do? They change the meaning and say that what God really desires is the salvation of ALL KINDS of men. And that is a gross contradiction of Scripture, since that is patently false. If this passage meant merely all kinds of men (which would then allow Calvinists to continue believing their false doctrine) then we would not have this Scripture (Acts 17:30):
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent
Does "all men everywhere" mean all of humanity? It certainly does. So what should be the response of Calvinists?
PROPER RESPONSE AFTER SCRIPTURE IS GIVE: "Our man-made doctrine is false. We refuse to hold to this nonsense".
Last edited:
Hi Nehemiah,
This is a somewhat silly and ridiculous argument.
I could say to you (using your own words):
"Scripture is supposed to be the final authority for Christians, but even when clear Scriptures are presented they are rejected or their meaning is reinterpreted through Arminian, semi pelagian, pelagian glasses.
PROPER RESPONSE AFTER SCRIPTURE IS GIVE: "Our man-made doctrine is false. We refuse to hold to this nonsense".
Nothing silly and ridiculous about what was posted. We were informed that no proof or evidence was presented to counter Calvinism, and that unsubstantiated claims were being made. So why don't you tell us whether you agree that God does indeed want all men to be saved, after reading the Scriptures provided?
You've yet to present even one properly and contextually exegeted Scripture to prove God wants all men saved. Your basic error is your inability to use proper context. Tradition is your context, not Scripture. Your beliefs are from the teachings of Finney and Sandeman mixed in with Free Grace Theology and other DTS errors. You view Scripture through these theological lenses. IOW, you're not the "biblicist" or theological maverick you claim to be.
Since you cannot prove your fallacious interpretations via proper Biblical and contextual hermeneutics you resort to name calling and saying that Calvinist's are lost (Reformed). You'll give an account of those words.
Since you cannot prove your fallacious interpretations via proper Biblical and contextual hermeneutics you resort to name calling and saying that Calvinist's are lost (Reformed). You'll give an account of those words.
Hi Nehemiah6,
The text you provided does not prove your point:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour,4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus,6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
This is just a very quick cursory answer as Im about to get my dinner
As Timothy says here we pray for 'All people' (2:1), so who are these 'all' people? its not just one group it is people from all walks of life not just those in authority (2:1-2). So when reading verses 1 and 2 we can see it is people of all stature.
So without even going any further in the text, we can see that Paul here in verses 1 thru to 15 is talking about prayer, intercession for all people,
regarding 'desire' (v4) all men to be saved. This is in contrast to the tendency of the false teacher who were narrow as in some form of law keeping (1:7-11). Paul was countering these 'exclusive' teachings of the law brigade.
Obviously 'all' cannot mean all will be saved as that would be universalism. Whether you hold an Arminian position or a Reformed position, this passage declares that the proclamation of the gospel is a free and universal call to 'all'. That God 'desires' shows His goodwill.
This passage on its own will never ever be a proof for Arminianism or Reformed position. We need to take the whole counsel of God into consideration. One of Paul's chief concerns and we can read this in nearly all his writings is the 'wall of hostility; being torn between Jew and Gentile.. 'all' people are now called not just by Ethnicity or by Law keeping. In our times we are de-sensitized of the real shock that now gentiles are ingrafted into the covenant people. 'All' people, not just an ethnic or law keeping people.
Anyhow, time for dinner
Last edited: