Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Do people burn in hell forever?
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The false prophet and the beast ARE decieved humans ... Decieved by satan.. The doctrine of universalism states that no human being will spend eternityu in torment in the lake of fire.. This scripture clearly reveals that the universalist doctrine is false.. There is also the false doctrine that one a person is cast into the lake of fire they are instantly destroyed and cease to exist but the same verse reveals the false prophet and the beast being in torment in the Lake of fire for ever and ever.. How clear can scriptures get and people still resist the plain truth...
As before, it boils down to, what happens when God sends fire from heaven to "devour" deceived humans? Do they live in torment forever, or do they die? I'm inclined to think that when God devours someone with fire, they cease to exist.
But you see the plain truth as being that when God sends fire from heaven to "devour" deceived humans He keeps them alive and "devours" them by tormenting them forever in a lake of fire. Is that your clear and plain truth that some of us have a hard time believing?
But you see the plain truth as being that when God sends fire from heaven to "devour" deceived humans He keeps them alive and "devours" them by tormenting them forever in a lake of fire. Is that your clear and plain truth that some of us have a hard time believing?
A Person needs spirit life in order to suffer.
We are all born separated from God (no eternal soul) because of the controlled corruption that came when Adam and Eve sinned.
God did not lie they died a decaying death shown by the aging process according to the Psalms 70 to 80 year process. Which was higher in Adam and Eves case .The rate of corruption is recorded to be over a 1000 years.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Second death...Dead is dead .Life is life
No spirit life leaves no means to work out suffering. Hell is to experience a living suffering ,The heart of the earth is to offer a living suffering also called the belly of the whale . Real hell
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
No spirit no work. Know the spirit do the work of Him .
We are all born separated from God (no eternal soul) because of the controlled corruption that came when Adam and Eve sinned.
God did not lie they died a decaying death shown by the aging process according to the Psalms 70 to 80 year process. Which was higher in Adam and Eves case .The rate of corruption is recorded to be over a 1000 years.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Second death...Dead is dead .Life is life
No spirit life leaves no means to work out suffering. Hell is to experience a living suffering ,The heart of the earth is to offer a living suffering also called the belly of the whale . Real hell
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
No spirit no work. Know the spirit do the work of Him .
Garee, you have to abide by the meanings of the words provided in the context. The everlasting destruction is complete loss of well being, ruination of one's status with God for all eternity, not annihilation or extinction.
According to all related scriptures, Life and death are both states of existence. Life is being in the joyful presence of God and death is separation from God and complete loss of well being. Everyone who comes into the world, whether righteous or wicked, exists for ever. Everyone whether righteous or wicked will both receive a resurrected body - (Dan.12:2, Acts 24:15).
It would make no sense for the wicked to also receive a resurrected body if it was just going to be immediately burnt up in the lake of fire. The bodies that the wicked will receive will not be destroyed by the flame, but will experience to torment of the heat. This is how the smoke of their torment can rise up forever and ever.
And this is not a matter of me looking forward to people going to judgment and being cast into the lake of fire, which I am not. But this is a matter of contending for the truth and accuracy of God's word against those who are claiming and teaching annihilation who have simply departed from the truth.
According to all related scriptures, Life and death are both states of existence. Life is being in the joyful presence of God and death is separation from God and complete loss of well being. Everyone who comes into the world, whether righteous or wicked, exists for ever. Everyone whether righteous or wicked will both receive a resurrected body - (Dan.12:2, Acts 24:15).
It would make no sense for the wicked to also receive a resurrected body if it was just going to be immediately burnt up in the lake of fire. The bodies that the wicked will receive will not be destroyed by the flame, but will experience to torment of the heat. This is how the smoke of their torment can rise up forever and ever.
And this is not a matter of me looking forward to people going to judgment and being cast into the lake of fire, which I am not. But this is a matter of contending for the truth and accuracy of God's word against those who are claiming and teaching annihilation who have simply departed from the truth.
The statement I changed to red..... This is proof that a lot of people believe the lie satan told Eve in the garden.... That you will not die. There is no life after death many times in scripture Jesus referred to death as a sleep.
I don't know about you but unless I am dreaming I don't know anything when I am asleep. I am not aware of what is going on around me my mind is at rest and I have no recall of what happened until I wake up in the morning and then life and my awareness resumes.
When you are alive you live when you are dead you are dead and don't know anything. Body resting in the ground or cremated until called in the resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
John 11:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.
The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I don't know about you but unless I am dreaming I don't know anything when I am asleep. I am not aware of what is going on around me my mind is at rest and I have no recall of what happened until I wake up in the morning and then life and my awareness resumes.
When you are alive you live when you are dead you are dead and don't know anything. Body resting in the ground or cremated until called in the resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
John 11:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.
The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Describing the punishment of the wicked, John wrote: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Rev 21:8
Here the los t are pictured in the fires of hell, suffering the punishment for their sins. And what is that punishment? "The second death," says John. Do you realize what this proves about the wicked? It proves they will not be cast into the lake of fire until after the resurrection takes place. These people die the second death in the fire, but they cannot suffer a second death until they get a second life. They lived the first life in this world and died the first death, going into the grave. Before they can die a second death they must be resurrected-they must be given a second life. This, of course, is what happens at the end of the world. Jesus said, "All that are in the graves shall come forth."
Now after getting that second life in the resurrection, the wicked will be punished for their sins in hell-fire, "which is the second death." By the way, that second death is the final, eternal death from which there will be no resurrection. But the point to be noted is the time of this hell-fire punishment-it is after the resurrection at the end of the world. It does not take place at the time of the first death as so many have been led to believe.
after Jesus comes and Judgement has been finished the resurrection takes place. - cast into the lake of fire, - second death.
Here the los t are pictured in the fires of hell, suffering the punishment for their sins. And what is that punishment? "The second death," says John. Do you realize what this proves about the wicked? It proves they will not be cast into the lake of fire until after the resurrection takes place. These people die the second death in the fire, but they cannot suffer a second death until they get a second life. They lived the first life in this world and died the first death, going into the grave. Before they can die a second death they must be resurrected-they must be given a second life. This, of course, is what happens at the end of the world. Jesus said, "All that are in the graves shall come forth."
Now after getting that second life in the resurrection, the wicked will be punished for their sins in hell-fire, "which is the second death." By the way, that second death is the final, eternal death from which there will be no resurrection. But the point to be noted is the time of this hell-fire punishment-it is after the resurrection at the end of the world. It does not take place at the time of the first death as so many have been led to believe.
after Jesus comes and Judgement has been finished the resurrection takes place. - cast into the lake of fire, - second death.
Does the Bible tell us how the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire? Yes, it does. John describes the dramatic events that take place at the close of the millennium. "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Rev 20:7-9
Here at the end of the millennium all the wicked people who have ever lived will come forth in the second resurrection. After describing how the righteous would come to life and reign with Christ during the thousand years, John wrote, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Rev 20:5.
The rest of the dead, of course, had to be the wicked, and their resurrection will provide opportunity for Satan to take up his continuing battle against God and the saints. He goes out to gather the host of lost ones, who have been raised from the dead. He has people to deceive once more, and he convinces them that they can prevail against the New Jerusalem which has descended from God out of heaven (Rev 21:2). As they march up and encompass the city, the wicked are suddenly cut down by the devouring fire which rains upon them from heaven. This is the hell-fire which is the final punishment for sin.
Here at the end of the millennium all the wicked people who have ever lived will come forth in the second resurrection. After describing how the righteous would come to life and reign with Christ during the thousand years, John wrote, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Rev 20:5.
The rest of the dead, of course, had to be the wicked, and their resurrection will provide opportunity for Satan to take up his continuing battle against God and the saints. He goes out to gather the host of lost ones, who have been raised from the dead. He has people to deceive once more, and he convinces them that they can prevail against the New Jerusalem which has descended from God out of heaven (Rev 21:2). As they march up and encompass the city, the wicked are suddenly cut down by the devouring fire which rains upon them from heaven. This is the hell-fire which is the final punishment for sin.
I agree with you, but where the wicked are now, until Judgement Day, is like hell. Luke shows this in the story of the rich Man and Lazarus. We know it’s before the end of the world because he asked Abraham if someone could go back to the earth to warn his brothers. And Lazarus was in Paradise- which is like heaven. Jesus told the thief on the cross today you will be with Me in Paradise.
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Hello TMS,
The people referred to as Gog and Magog will be those who are in their mortal bodies and will have repopulated the earth during the millennial period. After the end of the thousand years when they march across the earth and God rains fire upon them. This is not in reference to the lake of fire, but will be like what happened with Sodom and Gomorrah. Then they, along with all of the other people who have been accumulating in Hades, will be resurrected and will stand before God at the great white throne for judgment, which is what Rev.20:11-15 is depicting. At that time anyone's name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire.
Greetings JesusLives,
Brother, your on-going error is not understanding the scriptural definition of death, which is not annihilation or extinction. Also, as long you continue to define death in this way, you will not understand. Life and death are both conscious states of existence, with the reference to death relating to one's separated and unreconciled status in relation to God. For those who take part in the second death it is their status of separation from God which constitutes the state of death.
The rich man of Lazarus fame is a good example of state of death. Both the rich man and Lazarus died, yet their spirits departed from their bodies and were down in Sheol/Hades. The state of the rich man is death, which is characterized by his separation from God and being in torment in flame. After the thousand years he will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment and will then be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death, where he, along with everyone else, will be conscious and aware in the lake of fire.
The reference to "sleep" refers to the body only and not the spirit. We have many examples of those who have died and yet are conscious and aware in their spirits after death, which I put in another post on this thread.
Allow me to paraphrase this for you: The reward for sin is death i.e. complete loss of eternal well being in conscious existence in separation from God.
As far as the state of a believer's spirit after death, scripture states that we depart from the body and go to be in the presence of the Lord.
"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. - 2 Cor.5:6-8
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." - Phil.1:21-24
Both scriptures above reveal that when the body dies the spirit departs and goes to be the presence of the Lord, where they are also looking forward to the resurrection of their bodies.
I hope that this clears some things up for you.
Blessings!
Brother, your on-going error is not understanding the scriptural definition of death, which is not annihilation or extinction. Also, as long you continue to define death in this way, you will not understand. Life and death are both conscious states of existence, with the reference to death relating to one's separated and unreconciled status in relation to God. For those who take part in the second death it is their status of separation from God which constitutes the state of death.
The rich man of Lazarus fame is a good example of state of death. Both the rich man and Lazarus died, yet their spirits departed from their bodies and were down in Sheol/Hades. The state of the rich man is death, which is characterized by his separation from God and being in torment in flame. After the thousand years he will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment and will then be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death, where he, along with everyone else, will be conscious and aware in the lake of fire.
The reference to "sleep" refers to the body only and not the spirit. We have many examples of those who have died and yet are conscious and aware in their spirits after death, which I put in another post on this thread.
Allow me to paraphrase this for you: The reward for sin is death i.e. complete loss of eternal well being in conscious existence in separation from God.
As far as the state of a believer's spirit after death, scripture states that we depart from the body and go to be in the presence of the Lord.
"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. - 2 Cor.5:6-8
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." - Phil.1:21-24
Both scriptures above reveal that when the body dies the spirit departs and goes to be the presence of the Lord, where they are also looking forward to the resurrection of their bodies.
I hope that this clears some things up for you.
Blessings!
True enough. I suspect it was written in the present tense because John was there, in vision, witnessing the events of Revelation. Imagine how wild THAT must have been! 
If he had a vision only, it does not mean it will be so in future (like Niniveh desctruction).
Also, he only described what he saw, I am not sure how he could see that it will be "for ever and ever" (his idea) or if some voice said that...
Originally Posted by jenniferand2
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name
And it is because they did not cease worshipping the beast (the living creatures also rest not day or night from worshipping God).
No mention of eternal torment here.
quote please? Death mean the end of existence. The spirit lives on.
LOL so you change the meaning of death to suit your views?
They had ceased to exist. Only the spirit lived on.
where does it define death like this?
quite apart from there being no 'thousand years', where are we told that men are conscious and aware in the lake of fire? They are DEAD.
It is all your opinion,
LOL so you change the meaning of death to suit your views?
They had ceased to exist. Only the spirit lived on.
where does it define death like this?
quite apart from there being no 'thousand years', where are we told that men are conscious and aware in the lake of fire? They are DEAD.
It is all your opinion,
Either he had a vision (so was not truly there) or he traveled in time (and was really there)
If he had a vision only, it does not mean it will be so in future (like Niniveh desctruction).
Also, he only described what he saw, I am not sure how he could see that it will be "for ever and ever" (his idea) or if some voice said that...
If he had a vision only, it does not mean it will be so in future (like Niniveh desctruction).
Also, he only described what he saw, I am not sure how he could see that it will be "for ever and ever" (his idea) or if some voice said that...
First off I'm a Sister....not a Brother in Christ. My Bible has never taught me the immortality of the wicked. It teaches me death, destroy, ashes under your feet. Never has my Bible taught me that the spirit goes off elsewhere. It teaches me that the breath of life God gives returns to Him but the body turns to dust that the dead know nothing, they no longer work, praise God or anything else.
My Bible never has taught me that the minute you die you go to hell. Hell is also another word for the grave.
I think most of the ones who believe in immortality of the soul don't understand that dead is dead. It is comforting to them to think their loved one is up in heaven, but the Bible does not teach that you go directly to heaven or hell when you die just from dust you came and to dust you return.
There are two resurrections one for the righteous when Jesus returns and the second at the end when the wicked are resurrected for the final time to receive their final punishment and are thrown in the lake of fire.
Bible also teaches that the final enemy to be destroyed is death which is also thrown in the lake of fire. So the hell or lake of fire I believe in is the one at the very end of the world/sin as we know it.
Guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Again a study on death, hell, using concordance is enlightening.
The rich man and Lazarus is a parable the way Jesus taught.
God does not lie when he says the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
satan does lie however saying you will not surly die.... You will die if you are wicked and don't accept Jesus as your Savior and accept his sacrifice made to pay our debt for sin.
My Bible never has taught me that the minute you die you go to hell. Hell is also another word for the grave.
I think most of the ones who believe in immortality of the soul don't understand that dead is dead. It is comforting to them to think their loved one is up in heaven, but the Bible does not teach that you go directly to heaven or hell when you die just from dust you came and to dust you return.
There are two resurrections one for the righteous when Jesus returns and the second at the end when the wicked are resurrected for the final time to receive their final punishment and are thrown in the lake of fire.
Bible also teaches that the final enemy to be destroyed is death which is also thrown in the lake of fire. So the hell or lake of fire I believe in is the one at the very end of the world/sin as we know it.
Guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Again a study on death, hell, using concordance is enlightening.
The rich man and Lazarus is a parable the way Jesus taught.
God does not lie when he says the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
satan does lie however saying you will not surly die.... You will die if you are wicked and don't accept Jesus as your Savior and accept his sacrifice made to pay our debt for sin.