Paul the Liar?

[gdyloves]

Paul the liar.
In Romans 3:7 Paul says.' For if in my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I yet judged as a sinner?"(Rom 3:7 LITV-TSP)​

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So once again I ask, "what was Paul's lie?"​

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Let's start in verse 3:5 this time.​

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Paul through the Spirit includes himself in his statement in verse five when he says, But if our unrighteousness (our lie vs. 4; our unfaithfulness; vs. 3). He is states, (speaking as a man) even through our unrighteousness; our lie; our unfaithfulnes the righteousness of God (the oracles; the Holy Writ; that to which we can be justified (upright) in our words, and we overcome in our being judged. vs.4 ) still got commended; exhibited. ​

So is GOD unrighteous exhibiting wrath against those who choose to live thusly?​

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In verse six he answers emphatically in collation with what he previously said in four, "That You should be justified (upright) in Your words, and will overcome in Your being judged". He answers, "Let it not be; Otherwise, how will God judge the world?"​

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Then in verse seven he connects what he is about to say with the Greek word "gar" to what was previously stated. This word is a primary particle; to which assigns reason (Strong's #1063) to things previously stated. More often translated "for". ​

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So he is continuing his argument from man's perspective (vs.5 ). Reiterating what he said corporately in verse 5, but this time he is speaking in the first person. He says, "For if in my lie (my unrighteousness; my unfaithfulness through not adhering to all that which is given in the Holy Writ) the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I yet judged as a sinner?" ​

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And not (as we are wrongly accused, and as some report us to say), Let us do bad things so that good things may come, ( in other words why not just continue on the same course of unrighteous, unfaithfulness because the oracles; the Holy Writ; GOD's righteousness is still getting commended; promoted). And then emphatically to the man argument because GOD will judge the world (vs. 6). He condemns such thinking by saying, "The judgment of whom is just."​

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This is not the only place I have tried to share this. So with that being said. In trying to see someone else's argument I looked in a few reference books. Interestingly enough I could not find anything to support their argument. But to my glee I did find citations to support what was given to me. Here they are.​

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Henry Alford’s The Greek New Testament​

Romans 3:7​

7.] This follows (connected by γάρ) upon Rom_3:6, and shews that the supposition if carried out, would overthrow all God’s judgment, and (Rom_3:8) the whole moral life of man. How shall God judge the world? FOR, if the truth (faithfulness) of God abounded (was manifested, more clearly established) by means of my falsehood (unfaithfulness), to His glory (so that the result has been the setting forth of His glory), why any longer (ἔτι, this being so,—assuming the premises) am I also (i.e. as well as others,—am I to be involved in a judgment from which I ought to be exempt) judged (to be judged,—the pres. expressing the rule or habit of God’s proceeding) as a sinner?​

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Clarkes Commentary​

Romans 3:7​

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Jew. For if the truth of God, etc. - But to resume my reasoning (Rom_3:5): If the faithfulness of God in keeping his promise made to our fathers is, through our unfaithfulness, made far more glorious than it otherwise would have been, why should we then be blamed for that which must redound so much to the honor of God?​

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From Expositor's Greek New Testament​

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....A Jew is the speaker, or at all events the Apostle speaks in the character of one: “if my unbelief does magnify His faithfulness, is not that all that is required? Why am I, too, like the rest of the world, whose relation to God is so different, and whose judgment is so necessary, still brought into judgment?”...​

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From Vincent Word Studies​

Lie (ψεύσματι)​

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Only here in the New Testament. The expression carries us back to Rom_3:4, and is general for moral falsehood, unfaithfulness to the claims of conscience and of God, especially with reference to the proffer of salvation through Christ.​

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From the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges​

Romans 3:7​

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For if, &c.] Here St Paul takes up the Opponent on his own ground; speaking as a human being whose sin (e.g. a falsehood) serves to make God’s truth “abound to His glory;” i.e. be more largely manifest in a way to win Him fresh praise:—in such a case is not Paul, is not A, B, or C, equally entitled with the Jewish opponent to be excused penalty?—In the Gr. of the clause “why am I yet, &c.,” the word “I” is strongly emphatic; I also; i.e. “I, as well as my opponent.”—“Why am I yet, &c.:”—i.e. “after the recognition of the effect of my sin on the advancement of God’s glory.”—“By my lie;” lit. in my lie; i.e. “on occasion of it, in connexion with it.”​

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John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes​

Romans 3:7​

But, may the objector reply, if the truth of God hath abounded - Has been more abundantly shown. Through my lie - If my lie, that is, practice contrary to truth, conduces to the glory of God, by making his truth shine with superior advantage. Why am I still judged as a sinner - Can this be said to be any sin at all? Ought I not to do what would otherwise be evil, that so much "good may come?" To this the apostle does not deign to give a direct answer, but cuts the objector short with a severe reproof.​

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May GOD bless and keep you and keep us in HIS Way; Jesus Christ!! Happy Thanksgiving!!!​

Your reading it wrong read the whole chapter again but read it from 2 different bible versions (The whole chapter)

He's not saying he is a liar he is saying it like quoting people.
And he's saying what they are thinking is wrong

 

[Dai3234]

Your reading it wrong read the whole chapter again but read it from 2 different bible versions (The whole chapter)

He's not saying he is a liar he is saying it like quoting people.
And he's saying what they are thinking is wrong

Didn't I answer this already?

 

[posthuman]

Yes it has! How goes it my good Spirited friend?

Me too. Tough topic. Many have no idea what Paul was saying so they just gross over the text and give it no mind or take the word of some theologian who goes out side of the context of the text to explain it.

What is really disappointing here is the knee jerked responses and the way the band wagon was so easily filled....

this is what swordfighting school is like:

a group of people who are training learn a technique. now they know how to strike with a zwerchau. then you spar - and everyone's solution to everything is zwerchau. zwerchau zwerchau zwerchau.



now, there is a time to zwerch, and it is very useful both as a parry and an attack against actually a wide variety of things your sparring partner may do. it is powerful and it is advanced - it isn't what untrained people will do or know how to deal with. but it isn't always appropriate. learning when something else is more effective, or when this is actually potentially very dangerous for you to do instead of beneficial, is something you don't learn without a lot of practice against a lot of opponents, and applying it well and at the right time is part of mastery.



the BDF is typologically like a swordfighting school; we are all training with the Sword of the Spirit

 

[preacher4truth]

It was stated in this thread that it would be ridiculous for me (implied) to not believe Paul was being called a liar by God according to the OP when he was also a wretched man, chief of sinners &c. I say this to put it in context since posthuman is in support of the OP and to give context to this post.

The OP argument is not whether Paul had lied during his lifetime, but that God is calling Paul a liar in the text, as well as the OP calling Paul a liar as well.

Here is the post making said argument at me in support of the premise of the OP, directed at me:

lol how "chief of sinners" "wretched man" or "murderer" is fine but "liar" nope

None of this reflects my post, or thoughts here as I've shared numerous times 1 Timothy 1:15 concerning Paul's present tense "foremost of sinners" in other threads.

So for the record I do believe Paul could lie, among many other sins, yet this is not what the text is saying, God is not calling Paul a liar here, that is my point, thus the argument above doesn't fly, doesn't apply to me, doesn't make my stance ridiculous.

Also, I see no evidence that Paul actually murdered (as stated by posthuman above) in his persecution of the church. I wil; stand corrected here if proof is offered, however.

I've also been accused of throwing pronouns at the OP author. This isn't true, never happened (note post 62 and 67) so sorry for the confusion, but please let's keep it honest with facts, not implications or accusations.

It is unfortunate the OP is so unclear, then became frustrated about it being brought up when he alluded to such himself.

I disagree, obviously with the unwinding progressive revelation of the OP's intent to call Paul a liar. It is just not there in the text. That is all eisegetical.

I'll say it again: if you can't put it into words, then you really do not grasp it. That's a fact. Sorry if this hurts feelings, but it is true.

Now, concerning Paul being called a liar, by God, and the OP, although he denies it when it is clear he does so in the OP, here is John Gill:


through my lie to his glory: nothing is more opposite to truth than a lie; a lie of itself can never be of any advantage to truth, or to the God of truth; nothing is more contrary to the nature of God, and more abominable to him; a lie is of the devil, and punishable with eternal death; wherefore it may seem strange, that the truth of God should abound through it to his glory: now let it be observed, that the apostle is not speaking of himself, nor of his lie of unbelief, in his state of unregeneracy; but in the person of a sinful man, "for every man is a liar", Rom_3:4, as he says, "I speak as a man", Rom_3:5; representing a wicked man, who from what was before said, might collect this as the sense of it, that the truth of God is illustrated by the lies of men: and so much may be owned as the apostle's sense, that the truth of God is commended, illustrated, and made to abound, when it is asserted, that he is true and faithful, and every man is a liar, fallacious, and deceitful; "let God be true, and every man a liar", Rom_3:4, moreover, the truth of God may be allowed to abound through the lies of men, in a comparative sense, the one being set against the other; and so as contraries do, illustrate each other: this may be assented to, as that sometimes a lie has been overruled by God, for the accomplishing of his purposes and promises, in which his truth and faithfulness have been displayed, as in the cases of Jacob and the Egyptian midwives; but then this does not arise from its nature and tendency, but from the overruling wisdom and providence of God, and therefore not to be excused hereby from sin; and consequently the inference from it is not just, that therefore "no man can, or ought to be, judged as a sinner"; since his sin turns to such account, as to make for the glory of God, which is intimated in the question:


why yet am I also judged as a sinner? if this be the case, I ought not to be reckoned a sinner, or to be treated as such here, or judged and condemned as one hereafter, which is a most wicked, as well as weak consequence; for though God is true and faithful to his promises, notwithstanding the sins of his people, which are as a foil, to set off the lustre of his truth the more, yet their sins are nevertheless sins, and are taken notice of by him as such, and they are corrected for them; and however God may overrule, in a providential way, the sins of others for his glory, this is no excuse for their sins, nor will it be an exemption of them from punishment. This is the sense of the passage; unless by "the truth of God" should be meant, the Gospel, the word of truth, which is of God; and which through the apostle's "lie", as the Jews might call his ministration of it, "abounded to" the "glory" of God; being spread far and near, and made useful for the conversion of sinners, for turning men from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God; and for the planting of churches in the Gentile world, as well as in Judea; which much conduced to the honour of God, and the interest of true religion: and then the meaning of the last clause is, "why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" why am I accounted and condemned as an heretic? as an apostate from the faith? as he was by the Jews, and who are used to call heretics sinners: so "the sinner" in Ecc_7:26 is thus interpreted (p), אלו המינים "these are the heretics": and elsewhere it (q) is observed, that concerning the heretics it is said, Pro_10:7, "the name of the wicked shall rot": and I very much suspect this to be the sense of the word in Joh_9:24, "we know that this man is a sinner"; an heretic, a man of bad principles; and in Joh_9:31; "now we know that God heareth not sinners"; men of corrupt minds; since this character stands opposed to a worshipper of the God of Israel.

 

[preacher4truth]

My post #144 is meant as no offense, am just dealing with the dialog, assertions &c. Please don't take it as such!

 

[lightbearer]

Hello

My exegetical book points to κρίνεσθαί being middle/passive in Romans 3:4.

Judged = κρίνεσθαί in the Text; It is G2919 in the Strong's and it is parsed thusly. It is a Verb in the Present tense, Passive voice and in the infinitive mood. It is only found parsed the same way in Acts 25:9,10,20; Rom 3:4; 1 Cor 6:1; Col 4:6 and James 2:12. In each instance it should be basically translated the same way. " to be judged" or something similar that conveys the same thought. What is interesting about this text is the last predicate nominative used which this verb would be subject to was ἄνθρωπος (man) in verse 3. Which differs from Ps. 51:4 to which it is thought to be quoted from. In that verse as you know it refers to God being the Judge. I don't have an issue with that.

He says,

"

So that you may be justified (or "shown to be righteous") when you speak (literally "your words") and will prevail, (or "be victorious") when you are judged."

In fact, he says Paul may not be literally quoting either the MT or the LXX, but Jewish proverbs or aphorisms.

Well it is a direct quote from the LXX. The only difference is the Subject changed. I agree with his surmising though. I think Paul was quoting it for the purpose of reflecting on Ps. 51:4 in compilation to how he used the text in Rom 3:4. Simply stated we are going to be Judged through His Word and we can be justified through it through Christ.

God is faithful and true, and "liar" is unfaithfulness on the part of the Jews!

That is what has been shared. Mind you though. Paul equates all men liars in verse 4 and then in verse 5 says "our unrighteousness". That "our righteousness" is stated in the first person plural. Which means Paul was including himself. But actually what Paul is saying is our lying. Contextually that is the last unrighteousness that Paul was referring to. So with that Paul has established that all men outside of Christ are in fact unfaithful liars. Including himself in that; because verse 5 is spoken in the first person plural.

So having established that Paul then states "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom 3:7 KJV)

The word for is "gar" in the Greek This word is used to assign a reason for something that is previously stated.That is why it is commonly translated "for".

In other words what is about to be said is connected to what was before not after. Which makes sense. Paul had already stated in the 1 person plural that he also was a liar outside of Christ. " every man a liar"
For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of GOD. Including Paul prior to his conversion. So that is Paul's lie. His sharing the oracles of GOD outside of Christ even though he himself had not lived up to the standards put forth. His unrighteousness commended the righteousness of GOD because the truth of GOD still abounded because he as of the rest of Israel were sharing the Oracles or at the very least keepers of it.

May I point out again, the OP is using concordance word definitions and references from the Internet to form his theology.

No concordance was used and I did not get them off the internet. Some are hard copies in my library and other are on my computer.
They are Greek grammar and word study books by recognized scholars. Who by the way. I did not know concurred with what was posted in the op study until after it was done. This was stated in the op. Maybe you missed that.

 

[MarcR]

My post #144 is meant as no offense, am just dealing with the dialog, assertions &c. Please don't take it as such!

Reading Rom 3:4 Paul appears to be calling himself a liar. The question is: did the OP misunderstand the intent; or was he trying to provoke us to thought and dialog. There is sufficient question to create doubt, of which he deserves the benefit.

 

[Dai3234]

Nooooo, getting into the Strong's is soooooo tiring to talk about.

Though someone said Strong's only gives something like the medium word. Not always the precise word E,g,. Baptizo, but ,,, in baptizo,,, becomes bapto... Apparently, from Strong's notes,, somewhere???

 

[Dai3234]

Judged = κρίνεσθαί in the Text; It is G2919 in the Strong's and it is parsed thusly. It is a Verb in the Present tense, Passive voice and in the infinitive mood. It is only found parsed the same way in Acts 25:9,10,20; Rom 3:4; 1 Cor 6:1; Col 4:6 and James 2:12. In each instance it should be basically translated the same way. " to be judged" or something similar that conveys the same thought. What is interesting about this text is the last predicate nominative used which this verb would be subject to was ἄνθρωπος (man) in verse 3. Which differs from Ps. 51:4 to which it is thought to be quoted from. In that verse as you know it refers to God being the Judge. I don't have an issue with that.
Well it is a direct quote from the LXX. The only difference is the Subject changed. I agree with his surmising though. I think Paul was quoting it for the purpose of reflecting on Ps. 51:4 in compilation to how he used the text in Rom 3:4. Simply stated we are going to be Judged through His Word and we can be justified through it through Christ.
That is what has been shared. Mind you though. Paul equates all men liars in verse 4 and then in verse 5 says "our unrighteousness". That "our righteousness" is stated in the first person plural. Which means Paul was including himself. But actually what Paul is saying is our lying. Contextually that is the last unrighteousness that Paul was referring to. So with that Paul has established that all men outside of Christ are in fact unfaithful liars. Including himself in that; because verse 5 is spoken in the first person plural.

So having established that Paul then states "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom 3:7 KJV)

The word for is "gar" in the Greek This word is used to assign a reason for something that is previously stated.That is why it is commonly translated "for".

In other words what is about to be said is connected to what was before not after. Which makes sense. Paul had already stated in the 1 person plural that he also was a liar outside of Christ. " every man a liar"
For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of GOD. Including Paul prior to his conversion. So that is Paul's lie. His sharing the oracles of GOD outside of Christ even though he himself had not lived up to the standards put forth. His unrighteousness commended the righteousness of GOD because the truth of GOD still abounded because he as of the rest of Israel were sharing the Oracles or at the very least keepers of it.






No concordance was used and I did not get them off the internet. Some are hard copies in my library and other are on my computer.
They are Greek grammar and word study books by recognized scholars. Who by the way. I did not know concurred with what was posted in the op study until after it was done. This was stated in the op. Maybe you missed that.

Ahaaa... So Paul is saying his persecuting the saints led to more glorification of God, so why is he still punished? Etc.

But what is his point in general in relation to this? Hmmm, I'm so stupid,,, can't seem to follow it anymore...

 

[followjesus]

Paul, the man who called himself the chief of sinners, would not dispute this, i think.

so long as you're not saying his writings under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are untrue. that would be bad.

some of you arent seeing that paul is saying " I WAS i used to be a sinner" its one of the main themes of His ministry " you are not who you were, you are a new person now, the old is gone, the new has come" Once you lived as children of darkness, but now live as children of light" you died with christ and are born agan now"

He is saying i was a sinner and God still saved me, He is not saying im a sinner and saved, bit i was a great sinner and God still saved me from sin and death, now, i live my life for Jesus Christ and the Gospel, i beat my body into submission so that i will not be a castaway" I Labor and strive to please God at all times" i run the race " I press on toward the gosl to win the prize".....

he is not denying He was sinning when He was atracking the church and blaspheming the Holy Ghost.yet at the same time, he says according to the righteousness of the Law.


Philippians 3 "Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

if sin is transgression of the Law, and paul says i was blameless according to the law he is saying i kept the law perfectly. and then in another place saying

1 timothy 1 "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."


pauls doctrine can be confusing what hes teaching about the 2 creations the sinner made after adam....and the child of God made after Jesus is a main theme there, we WERE all sinners everyone, Jesus came to call us to repentance and Obedience because that is salvation through Christ. Paul was not confessing His lie or saying im currently a blasphemer and persecutor but God saves me anyways. often He is using His personal experience to explain something, some principle. Like all of us paul was a sinner before He met the Lord, and when He did He followed after Him and forsook al else the rest of His life. he wasnt perfect He says as much, but the one thing He did was fully commit to living and dying with the Lord Jesus Christ because He believed

 

[Dai3234]

some of you arent seeing that paul is saying " I WAS i used to be a sinner" its one of the main themes of His ministry " you are not who you were, you are a new person now, the old is gone, the new has come" Once you lived as children of darkness, but now live as children of light" you died with christ and are born agan now"

He is saying i was a sinner and God still saved me, He is not saying im a sinner and saved, bit i was a great sinner and God still saved me from sin and death, now, i live my life for Jesus Christ and the Gospel, i beat my body into submission so that i will not be a castaway" I Labor and strive to please God at all times" i run the race " I press on toward the gosl to win the prize".....

he is not denying He was sinning when He was atracking the church and blaspheming the Holy Ghost.yet at the same time, he says according to the righteousness of the Law.


Philippians 3 "Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

if sin is transgression of the Law, and paul says i was blameless according to the law he is saying i kept the law perfectly. and then in another place saying

1 timothy 1 "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."


pauls doctrine can be confusing what hes teaching about the 2 creations the sinner made after adam....and the child of God made after Jesus is a main theme there, we WERE all sinners everyone, Jesus came to call us to repentance and Obedience because that is salvation through Christ. Paul was not confessing His lie or saying im currently a blasphemer and persecutor but God saves me anyways. often He is using His personal experience to explain something, some principle. Like all of us paul was a sinner before He met the Lord, and when He did He followed after Him and forsook al else the rest of His life. he wasnt perfect He says as much, but the one thing He did was fully commit to living and dying with the Lord Jesus Christ because He believed

Yeah, I get all that, but I don't get the (we are blasphemed about etc) part? The Jews said about them what? Or unbelievers etc?

 

[preacher4truth]

Reading Rom 3:4 Paul appears to be calling himself a liar.

I disagree. What I do know is that Paul probably had lied in his life, but the text is not referencing him specifically. Gill and many others agree.

The question is: did the OP misunderstand the intent; or was he trying to provoke us to thought and dialog.

I don't know, he hasn't been clear on that either. I think we lost contact after the assertions I threw pronouns at him, which never took place. (he also alluded in his post others did this with "you guys")

There is sufficient question to create doubt, of which he deserves the benefit.

I tried that with my first post in asking for clarification as to his OP. Never got that. Got dismissed because others understand him elsewhere, then the post that I threw pronouns at him came afterwards. Other(s) also got some similar responses initially.

After all that some of us saw him as possibly anti-Pauline due to the lack of clarification and snark.

 

[lightbearer]

I've also been accused of throwing pronouns at the OP author. This isn't true, never happened (note post 62 and 67) so sorry for the confusion, but please let's keep it honest with facts, not implications or accusations.

l.

I highlighted them in bold so there is no confusion.

You clearly misunderstand the text and the commentary you provide as well. The phrase "why am I still being condemned as a sinner? Romans 3:7" shows the absurdity and error of your conclusion.

You don't grasp the passage.

Oh? Enlighten us with the verbiage of others who've understood your gobbledygook* then perhaps we will understand?

Since you've had so much trouble conveying your point in the OP it is probable you really do not grasp it yourself. Fair enough?

Not only were they used. But they were used to attack my character. I could care less really. My comment about pronouns was just a general statement due to the fact I have posted elsewhere where this would not be tolerated. It is nice that it is here. Praise GOD. Just recently one went through a slew of attacks in this thread to defame me. I would like to Thank them for that.

 

[followjesus]

this is why its so important to rightly divide the word of truth or else u will get mixed up in all kinds of false doctrines.

folks see the differences in the preaching of Paul and Jesus. and then they say oh look its different, Jesus is Jesus so we go with Him and throw out Paul he was a false apostle.

they need to rightly divide and realize that Jesus only came for the lost sheep of Israel.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

paul was the apostle to the gentiles and he started his ministry after israel had rejected the messiah(last straw was when they stoned stephen) and after Jesus died and resurrected so he was the apostle of the new covenant.
the book of acts is a transitional book and alotta folks get tripped up in acts 2 and make it the end all be all for the church age. things are changing in the book of acts. compare pentecost to cornelius' story. its not the same.

if u really wanna go with Jesus' words only shouldnt u obey the law of moses too? Jesus did! and u must follow Him. Jesus even said to his disciples to do all the things that the pharisees say cause they sit in the seat of moses.

u cant make all the bible say the same thing cause it doesnt. u have to wrest teh scrpitures to make it fit. u gotta rightly divide. all scripture is written for our benefit. but not all applies to us or else u should be building an ark and not eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

Paul is not a false prophet and His doctrine is not different than Jesus doctrine none of the apostles were teaching anything contrary to the gospel of the Kingdom of God. that is what paul preached, because it is what Jesus preached. you are so far off with this belief you have heard " did God really say that? yeah bit its not for you, listen to this other thing im telling you"

Jesus did not obey the mosaic Law He told those who were circumcized and obligated to obey it...to obey it because the covenant was not yet fulfilled until He shed His blood. this does not change in the least, His ministry because He was not teaching the Moisaic Law. Heres the proof He didnt obey it

john 8 "And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

they are right, the Law does indeed command her stoning to death. Leviticus 20:10. Jesus actually caused them NOT to obey the law of moses in this instance and neither did He. who had no sin. why would Jesus obey the Law when it is made and given to sinners? its a fallacy for people to think He was obeying the Law of moses or teaching it. He teaches contrary to it. when He died, that is the Moment the covenat changed from Moses and the Law, to the Gospel which Jesus began preaching when John was imprisoned.

your comment is funny because you are the one inventing what is not there. you cannot provide a single scripture saying " all of Jesus ministry is not for you"

in fact you are saying pauls the authority and what does paul say?

1 timothy 6:3-5 " If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

its insane when people buy this doctrine, all paul said was for the purpose of bringing gentiles into the obedience of the Gospel.

romans 15:8 "For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,"


Peter was also sent to the gentiles after He has his dream, its really no mystery where this idea comes from anything possible to omit the Word of God through Jesus Christ the Lord. those explainations though arent found in the Bible, the Bible says the opposite whether before or after Jesus death. paul is no ones savior, he is a serb=vant of the Lord sent to spread His word to the world as were the other 11 apostles. paul teaches the same things Jesus taught, in different words there is only 1 gospel of the Kingdom of God, its what Jesus Preached to israel

matthew 4:23 "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

matthew 9:35 "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people."

Luke 4:43 "And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent."

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

its what He tols His disciples to teach

matthew 28:18-20 " And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."


its what paul preached to the Jews first and then the Gentiles

acts 20:25 "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

acts 28And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into hislodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening."


acts 28:31 "Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.


there is only the Gospel of the kingdom of God, there is only One messiah and Hos word is above all, it is eternal he said those things. and the many teachers who are casting aside truth....are spreading anything they can to get people away from the real gospelk because its the Only way set forth By God

 

[oldethennew]

EPH. 4:4-5-6-7.
There is One Body, and One Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling;

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism,

One God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

But unto every one of us is given Grace according to the measure of The Gift of Christ.

 

[gdyloves]

Didn't I answer this already?

I'm sorry, did I ask you something already?

 

[preacher4truth]

I highlighted them in bold so there is no confusion.Not only were they used. But they were used to attack my character. I could care less really. My comment about pronouns was just a general statement due to the fact I have posted elsewhere where this would not be tolerated. It is nice that it is here. Praise GOD. Just recently one went through a slew of attacks in this thread to defame me. I would like to Thank them for that.

LOL! Wow...that's utterly ridiculous!

Oh no, my bad, I used the word you, when addressing you. The horror!

You wrote the OP so I addressed, well, you. I'm addressing you again.

Also, in your response *gasp* you (sorry, have to use that pronoun when addressing you) stated "you guys." Therefore you resorted to plural pronoun usage, attacking the character of many all at once!!! (just applying your logic consistently)

Dude, if that offends you, I don't know what to tell you other than some maturation is recommended on your end.

 

[lightbearer]

LOL! Wow...that's utterly ridiculous!

Oh no, my bad, I used the word you, when addressing you. The horror!

You wrote the OP so I addressed, well, you. I'm addressing you again.

Also, in your response *gasp* you (sorry, have to use that pronoun when addressing you) stated "you guys." Therefore you resorted to plural pronoun usage, attacking the character of many all at once!!! (just applying your logic consistently)

Dude, if that offends you, I don't know what to tell you other than some maturation is recommended on your end.

WHo said I was offended? I took note that is all. You can make light of it if you wish. Just know that that callous manner of your posts will close a lot more doors than open them. Incidentally I would not have pointed them out to you if you had not said I lied that you had used them. It is funny that people think they have to say a person does not understand, they don't have a grasp, etc; etc...When all they have to do is prove it. That in itself says all that needs to be said.

 

[preacher4truth]

WHo said I was offended?

You did by mentioning it and posting about it, attempting to draw ridicule on other persons for using the pronoun "you" when responding to you.

I took note that is all.

You were butthurt which is why you're still bringing it up.

You can make light of it if you wish.

See? This shows you're offended because you're mentioning I made light of it. That bothered you obviously or you'd never have said I made light of it. Why would you be concerned that I made light of it if it weren't more than just you taking note of it?

Just know that that callous manner of your posts will close a lot more doors than open them.

Yes, callous to you is throwing the pronoun "you" around.

By the way, you have several snarky comments toward others initially in this thread apparently all due to the fact they didn't embrace your poorly conveyed OP with open arms. You even invited one to put you on ignore, or you were putting one on ignore over it. That's callow and shows you're easily offended.

Incidentally I would not have pointed them out to you if you had not said I lied that you had used them.

And you're still whining about it. Wow. And to top it off, I never said you lied about a thing specifically the personal pronoun issue.

It is you who is lying at this point.

I asked where the alleged "thrown around pronouns" were. Come to find out, using the word "you" when referring to you is slinging pronouns.

It is funny that people think they have to say a person does not understand, they don't have a grasp, etc; etc...When all they have to do is prove it. That in itself says all that needs to be said.

Your poorly worded and conveyed OP proves this in itself. You even alluded to that fact in this thread.

If you can't convey your premise clearly, you don't really grasp it. You can't handle hearing that - it offends you.

It is impossible to prove anything when what you stated was so poorly conveyed several couldn't make heads or tails of it. That offended you too. In fact, you're very easily offended apparently.

Now, go ahead and get your last word in.

 

[followjesus]

Yeah, I get all that, but I don't get the (we are blasphemed about etc) part? The Jews said about them what? Or unbelievers etc?

The Judaizers, were the groups that rejected Jesus and plotted His Death, did you Know that Jesus technically was crucified for blasphemy? Near the end of the ot, God sends a famine of Hearing the Word of God upon israel because they continually rejected and disobeyed it, when Jesus came He was what all the prophets had been foretelling since moses promised Him in deut. 18:18-19"....later much more of the promise of the messiah is revealed in the prophets. like He would die for our sins, and be raised to life.

His life is really written in prophecy from His virgin Birth, to His eath on the cross, to His ministry on eartth and its purpose, to His ascention to sit on Gods right Hand..... to His miracles, Healings giving sight to the Blind, riuding to jerusalem on a donkey, even some of His thoughts on the cross are in a psalm.

the issue was they considered Jesus a blashpemer...and all of the disciples and apostles were teaching Jesus doctrine, so the judaizers accused them of blaphemy also. they Believed Jesus was the promised Messiah, the Jews labeled Him a blasphemer. early the Jews were one of the main persecuters of the church because they believed it an offense to judaism..which it was actually the fulfillment of judaisms purpose...to deliver the Promise of the Messiah, the Man born of God, the Man who is One with God, and also One with Mankind son of God, son of Man, this was blasphemy because they were blind to all of the prophecy Jesus Life fulfilled. theres no doubt if one studies much prophecy Jesus is indeed the servant and Messiah of God, the messenger of the Covenant.

also things Like the fact that He was not only for israel are very clear in prophecy also but they were blind by the will of God to reject Jesus that He was sent to the Gentile and all the earth. so many just like this that are full of understanding of the epistles better but some will not see that is why they labeled them blasphemers, because they followed Jesus who they judged a blasphemer. christianity effectively ended Judaism and they knew it, this meant thier rule over the People by the levitical bloodline, was lost. they Hated Jesus and His followers because it threatened thier power.

.isaiah 49 :5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


The Jews said of christians, they were lawbreakers because they were taught that they werent suppose to obey the Mosaic Law...but they were instead to obey the teachings of Jesus Christ. which are contrary Jesus says things Like " it was said long ago....but i tell you this other thing" its because He wasnt reteaching the Moisaic Law ibut He was teaching the Gospel. not the Ot, but the nt.