The Grace Revolution and The Word of Faith
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Hey Ben,
Hope you've been doing well.
Let me pose a question about suffering.
If God knows you need some particular hardship or suffering in your life, in order to mature you in the faith, so you will grow closer to Him, and so you will be more effective in ministry... then would God bring that necessary hardship and suffering into your life?
Hope you've been doing well.
Let me pose a question about suffering.
If God knows you need some particular hardship or suffering in your life, in order to mature you in the faith, so you will grow closer to Him, and so you will be more effective in ministry... then would God bring that necessary hardship and suffering into your life?
Many miss what the temptation of Jesus was really all about. Thank you for asking this.
I had a WOF guy challenge me one day, after I taught a seminar on suffering and how to discern between refinement for minsitry and an attack from the enemy, it was absurd and silly. My Text for the class was Luke 4:1-21
My only response to him was go read Heb 5:7-10. He whips out his phone and looks it up and looked into my eyes and back at his phone for like 6 x and then just sank into a chair and wept.
I had a WOF guy challenge me one day, after I taught a seminar on suffering and how to discern between refinement for minsitry and an attack from the enemy, it was absurd and silly. My Text for the class was Luke 4:1-21
My only response to him was go read Heb 5:7-10. He whips out his phone and looks it up and looked into my eyes and back at his phone for like 6 x and then just sank into a chair and wept.
The discussion is over, I gave you what you wanted.
The reason the discussion is over is simple. You did something so common with Swaggert & his followers, when you get called out on your doctrine or do not have an answer to the truth. You place the person who called you out in swift and immediate condemnation.
You did this to me by asking the below question:
Originally Posted by MessageOfTheCross
Do you now tithe?
Folks should see how swaggert followers operate, for the fruit is from the tree.
The reason the discussion is over is simple. You did something so common with Swaggert & his followers, when you get called out on your doctrine or do not have an answer to the truth. You place the person who called you out in swift and immediate condemnation.
You did this to me by asking the below question:
Do you now tithe?
I go directly to John 16:7-13 and have seen the need to rightly divide the word on this subject. Concerning the Holy Spirit and His ministry in the world...
7. But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; if if I go, I will send Him to you.
8. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness and judgement.
9.concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; .......... (that is not the Christian)
10. concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer behold Me. ......(that IS the Christian)
11 and concerning judgment because the ruler of this world has been judged.........(that IS the devil)
As you can read., the "world" is convicted of sin., The "believer" is convicted of righteousness., and the devil has been judged.
I believe based on the Bible that the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of "righteousness" The WORLD and the FLESH and the DEVIL will ALWAYS condemn and try to falsely accuse the believer of being a sinner when we are in fact.,,Saints and heirs and joint heirs with Christ. We have against us as believers a 24/7 continual service of accusation and condemnation coming from those 3 places. We have to learn to see ourselves as righteous in Christ and not condemned with the world.
Yet there are many believers who are not ready to hear the truth about how we as believers are righteous 100% in Christ and NOT our own righteousness. As verse 12 says.... I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own behalf, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
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Why do you believe it is God's mission to send Christians hardships and suffering in order for us to mature in the faith and grow closer to Him? If my dad beat me up every time I went to him for help and to be loved., I'd mature and learn to steer clear of my father and grow farther and farther away from him.., not closer.
This is a majorly wrong idea of God the Father. Jesus told us if we want to see the Father we are to look and see the Son. The Son never left anyone who went to Him for help lacking in any way. Jesus healed all who came to Him. Jesus loved until the very end and then into eternity. That is the picture we must have of our heavenly Father. Our heavenly Father is He who never gives us a snake when we ask for a fish. Luke 11:11-13
God doesn't send us calamity so we can learn to love Him. He gives us the Holy Spirit and the water of the washing of the Word. We learn by those 2 avenues. We don't get killed by our Father and we don't get beat up by Him. If anyone who reads this believes God is doing that., you need to LOOK at JESUS. Our Good Shepherd doesn't beat the sheep nor does He drive the sheep. The Good Shepherd goes before the sheep and He LEADS them. His rod and His staff they comfort... they do not beat. How extremely sad and deceptive man made religion is to have fooled even Christians., even the very elect to believe such a lie about our loving gracious heavenly Father.
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[SUP]Psalm 23
1 [/SUP]The Lord is my Shepherd [to feed, guide, and shield me], I shall not lack.
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]He makes me lie down in [fresh, tender] green pastures; He leads me beside the still and restful waters.
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]He refreshes and restores my life (my self); He leads me in the paths of righteousness [uprightness and right standing with Him—not for my earning it, but] for His name’s sake.
[SUP]
4 [/SUP]Yes, though I walk through the [deep, sunless] valley of the shadow of death, I will fear or dread no evil, for You are with me; Your rod [to protect] and Your staff [to guide], they comfort me.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with [SUP][a][/SUP]oil; my [brimming] cup runs over.
[SUP]
6 [/SUP]Surely or only goodness, mercy, and unfailing love shall follow me all the days of my life, and through the length of my days the house of the Lord [and His presence] shall be my dwelling place.
1 [/SUP]The Lord is my Shepherd [to feed, guide, and shield me], I shall not lack.
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]He makes me lie down in [fresh, tender] green pastures; He leads me beside the still and restful waters.
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]He refreshes and restores my life (my self); He leads me in the paths of righteousness [uprightness and right standing with Him—not for my earning it, but] for His name’s sake.
[SUP]
4 [/SUP]Yes, though I walk through the [deep, sunless] valley of the shadow of death, I will fear or dread no evil, for You are with me; Your rod [to protect] and Your staff [to guide], they comfort me.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with [SUP][a][/SUP]oil; my [brimming] cup runs over.
[SUP]
6 [/SUP]Surely or only goodness, mercy, and unfailing love shall follow me all the days of my life, and through the length of my days the house of the Lord [and His presence] shall be my dwelling place.
The Bible makes it clear that it is the devil who comes to "kill" to "steal" to "destroy" And yet Christians even here on this thread on CC believe it is God the Father who is stealing from them., who is trying to daily destroy them and ultimately wanting to kill them!
No., the truth IS in fact God loved us so much He sent His only Son Jesus (because only the God-man could do this) to come and save us by Him doing the suffering., and the dying on the cross for our redemption. Not for us to do this ourselves. It is by HIS stripes we are healed.... not OUR stripes. Not our suffering. Not our dying.
No., the truth IS in fact God loved us so much He sent His only Son Jesus (because only the God-man could do this) to come and save us by Him doing the suffering., and the dying on the cross for our redemption. Not for us to do this ourselves. It is by HIS stripes we are healed.... not OUR stripes. Not our suffering. Not our dying.
We meet again... haha 
Hey Maxwel, hope all is well, to the max. See what I did there? *Clears throat*
Your question is loaded, in that you have stated that the particular hardship or suffering is "necessary." Under such a hypothetical I would have to believe that God works through the avenue of suffering and hardship "to mature you in the faith, so you will grow closer to Him, and so you will be more effective in ministry." Not only that, [I would also have to concede) that God would find Himself bound to only that particular avenue of suffering and hardship in order to mature a believer in the faith (as you define it as necessary) as opposed to something else.
As a counter, of sorts, I'd pivot the question to another. Can God mature you in the faith, grow you closer to Him, and make you more effective in ministry through some other means than suffering and hardships? If I may offer my answer, yes He can and does. Through what means? Fellowship with God, through the means of prayer (actually spending time with the Lord, learning and growing).
Can a person mature in the faith, grow closer to God, and become more effective in ministry through suffering and hardship? Sure, but I think that has more to do with one of the points of this thread, that God works all things together for the good of those that love Him and are called according to His purposes. Do I believe this is the main avenue God chooses? No, and you may be asking, "Does He use that method whatsoever?" I do not believe, as you have worded it, that God would "bring" that hardship and suffering. I would be cautionary of having the boldness to say, "God gave me this sickness."
We may learn things through suffering and hardships, but that is not how the Lord would have us learn. No parent, for example, wishes for their child to learn to not touch the hot stove by touching it. They rather have the child be obedient, trusting them. Listening to caution, and advice. On a side note, God giving you advice is more like God giving you the answer (lol).
Back on point, I would disagree upon the necessity for hardship and suffering in order to grow in the faith, grow closer to God, and its necessity in order to become more effective at ministry. I believe these advancements can happen through other means, and, yes, God does also bring these advancements through suffering and hardship we have brought upon ourselves (or from some outside force), but we cannot blame God for such circumstances. Just as one cannot blame God for temptation (Do not say, "God has tempted me.")
In summary, does God bring suffering and hardship to His children? No. Does He permit it? That is another question entirely, as it can be argued He permits a lot of what happens in this world, but we live in a fallen world and who can bring a charge against God? Maybe such suffering in the world was necessary in order for the plan of redemption to take place? In light of eternity, weighing the pros and cons, God created the universe with no mistakes, all things intended. All that we experience because of sin, being in a fallen world, God foreknew would happen yet still did He create it and us all. He is sovereign in such matters, but ultimately, it all works together for the good of those that love God and are called according to His purposes going through life onto eternity.
Hey Maxwel, hope all is well, to the max. See what I did there? *Clears throat*Your question is loaded, in that you have stated that the particular hardship or suffering is "necessary." Under such a hypothetical I would have to believe that God works through the avenue of suffering and hardship "to mature you in the faith, so you will grow closer to Him, and so you will be more effective in ministry." Not only that, [I would also have to concede) that God would find Himself bound to only that particular avenue of suffering and hardship in order to mature a believer in the faith (as you define it as necessary) as opposed to something else.
As a counter, of sorts, I'd pivot the question to another. Can God mature you in the faith, grow you closer to Him, and make you more effective in ministry through some other means than suffering and hardships? If I may offer my answer, yes He can and does. Through what means? Fellowship with God, through the means of prayer (actually spending time with the Lord, learning and growing).
Can a person mature in the faith, grow closer to God, and become more effective in ministry through suffering and hardship? Sure, but I think that has more to do with one of the points of this thread, that God works all things together for the good of those that love Him and are called according to His purposes. Do I believe this is the main avenue God chooses? No, and you may be asking, "Does He use that method whatsoever?" I do not believe, as you have worded it, that God would "bring" that hardship and suffering. I would be cautionary of having the boldness to say, "God gave me this sickness."
We may learn things through suffering and hardships, but that is not how the Lord would have us learn. No parent, for example, wishes for their child to learn to not touch the hot stove by touching it. They rather have the child be obedient, trusting them. Listening to caution, and advice. On a side note, God giving you advice is more like God giving you the answer (lol).
Back on point, I would disagree upon the necessity for hardship and suffering in order to grow in the faith, grow closer to God, and its necessity in order to become more effective at ministry. I believe these advancements can happen through other means, and, yes, God does also bring these advancements through suffering and hardship we have brought upon ourselves (or from some outside force), but we cannot blame God for such circumstances. Just as one cannot blame God for temptation (Do not say, "God has tempted me.")
In summary, does God bring suffering and hardship to His children? No. Does He permit it? That is another question entirely, as it can be argued He permits a lot of what happens in this world, but we live in a fallen world and who can bring a charge against God? Maybe such suffering in the world was necessary in order for the plan of redemption to take place? In light of eternity, weighing the pros and cons, God created the universe with no mistakes, all things intended. All that we experience because of sin, being in a fallen world, God foreknew would happen yet still did He create it and us all. He is sovereign in such matters, but ultimately, it all works together for the good of those that love God and are called according to His purposes going through life onto eternity.
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I don't understand this idea of the Holy Spirit "convicting us of righteousness", my problem, mankind's problem is not, nor ever has been needing to understand or be convicted that we are righteous. I never ever had a problem arguing that I was right with anyone, my problem was admitting I was wrong. If what you're talking about is coming to the understanding that we are in Christ, forgiven, and given His righteousness then I agree 100% although I don't think describing it as being "convicted of righteousness" is completely accurate, and I believe we need to see the hopelessness of our condition in sin without Jesus, before we can turn from "our ways" to His way. I think I understand what you're saying here, but don't understand it the same exact way. I also don't think we should avoid the problem of sin by ignoring it or trying to pad it too much either. Anyway those are my thoughts for what they're worth, and I hope you have a great week.
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Romans 8:2 [FONT="]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[/FONT]Romans 8:10-14
[FONT="]10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.[/FONT]
[/FONT]Romans 8:10-14
[FONT="]10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.[/FONT]
We meet again... haha Hey Maxwel, hope all is well, to the max. See what I did there? *Clears throat*
Your question is loaded, in that you have stated that the particular hardship or suffering is "necessary." Under such a hypothetical I would have to believe that God works through the avenue of suffering and hardship "to mature you in the faith, so you will grow closer to Him, and so you will be more effective in ministry." Not only that, [I would also have to concede) that God would find Himself bound to only that particular avenue of suffering and hardship in order to mature a believer in the faith (as you define it as necessary) as opposed to something else.
As a counter, of sorts, I'd pivot the question to another. Can God mature you in the faith, grow you closer to Him, and make you more effective in ministry through some other means than suffering and hardships? If I may offer my answer, yes He can and does. Through what means? Fellowship with God, through the means of prayer (actually spending time with the Lord, learning and growing).
Can a person mature in the faith, grow closer to God, and become more effective in ministry through suffering and hardship? Sure, but I think that has more to do with one of the points of this thread, that God works all things together for the good of those that love Him and are called according to His purposes. Do I believe this is the main avenue God chooses? No, and you may be asking, "Does He use that method whatsoever?" I do not believe, as you have worded it, that God would "bring" that hardship and suffering. I would be cautionary of having the boldness to say, "God gave me this sickness."
We may learn things through suffering and hardships, but that is not how the Lord would have us learn. No parent, for example, wishes for their child to learn to not touch the hot stove by touching it. They rather have the child be obedient, trusting them. Listening to caution, and advice. On a side note, God giving you advice is more like God giving you the answer (lol).
Back on point, I would disagree upon the necessity for hardship and suffering in order to grow in the faith, grow closer to God, and its necessity in order to become more effective at ministry. I believe these advancements can happen through other means, and, yes, God does also bring these advancements through suffering and hardship we have brought upon ourselves (or from some outside force), but we cannot blame God for such circumstances. Just as one cannot blame God for temptation (Do not say, "God has tempted me.")
In summary, does God bring suffering and hardship to His children? No. Does He permit it? That is another question entirely, as it can be argued He permits a lot of what happens in this world, but we live in a fallen world and who can bring a charge against God? Maybe such suffering in the world was necessary in order for the plan of redemption to take place? In light of eternity, weighing the pros and cons, God created the universe with no mistakes, all things intended. All that we experience because of sin, being in a fallen world, God foreknew would happen yet still did He create it and us all. He is sovereign in such matters, but ultimately, it all works together for the good of those that love God and are called according to His purposes going through life onto eternity.
Hey Maxwel, hope all is well, to the max. See what I did there? *Clears throat*Your question is loaded, in that you have stated that the particular hardship or suffering is "necessary." Under such a hypothetical I would have to believe that God works through the avenue of suffering and hardship "to mature you in the faith, so you will grow closer to Him, and so you will be more effective in ministry." Not only that, [I would also have to concede) that God would find Himself bound to only that particular avenue of suffering and hardship in order to mature a believer in the faith (as you define it as necessary) as opposed to something else.
As a counter, of sorts, I'd pivot the question to another. Can God mature you in the faith, grow you closer to Him, and make you more effective in ministry through some other means than suffering and hardships? If I may offer my answer, yes He can and does. Through what means? Fellowship with God, through the means of prayer (actually spending time with the Lord, learning and growing).
Can a person mature in the faith, grow closer to God, and become more effective in ministry through suffering and hardship? Sure, but I think that has more to do with one of the points of this thread, that God works all things together for the good of those that love Him and are called according to His purposes. Do I believe this is the main avenue God chooses? No, and you may be asking, "Does He use that method whatsoever?" I do not believe, as you have worded it, that God would "bring" that hardship and suffering. I would be cautionary of having the boldness to say, "God gave me this sickness."
We may learn things through suffering and hardships, but that is not how the Lord would have us learn. No parent, for example, wishes for their child to learn to not touch the hot stove by touching it. They rather have the child be obedient, trusting them. Listening to caution, and advice. On a side note, God giving you advice is more like God giving you the answer (lol).
Back on point, I would disagree upon the necessity for hardship and suffering in order to grow in the faith, grow closer to God, and its necessity in order to become more effective at ministry. I believe these advancements can happen through other means, and, yes, God does also bring these advancements through suffering and hardship we have brought upon ourselves (or from some outside force), but we cannot blame God for such circumstances. Just as one cannot blame God for temptation (Do not say, "God has tempted me.")
In summary, does God bring suffering and hardship to His children? No. Does He permit it? That is another question entirely, as it can be argued He permits a lot of what happens in this world, but we live in a fallen world and who can bring a charge against God? Maybe such suffering in the world was necessary in order for the plan of redemption to take place? In light of eternity, weighing the pros and cons, God created the universe with no mistakes, all things intended. All that we experience because of sin, being in a fallen world, God foreknew would happen yet still did He create it and us all. He is sovereign in such matters, but ultimately, it all works together for the good of those that love God and are called according to His purposes going through life onto eternity.
Heb 5:7-10
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, [SUP]10 [/SUP]being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
Luke 22:42-44
[SUP]42 [/SUP]saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” [SUP]43 [/SUP]Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. [SUP]44 [/SUP]And being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.
This is talking about Jesus and if he suffered for his ministry what makes you think you get an exempt card and free pass from suffering and refinement for ministry?
Hi beastslayer
I am beginning to think of the sufferings that we go through is not so much for ministry, but glory. Ministry would be by the gifts of Holy Spirit, do you agree? So the feast that we are yet to take part of is Tabernacles. I've said this so many times, but thought the glory would come at the judgement seat when we see Him. Am not so sure of that now.
Romans 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace by which we have been established, and we boast because of our hope in God's glory.
Rom 5:3 Not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
Rom 5:4 endurance produces character, and character produces hope.
Rom 5:5 Now this hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
The personal testings that we endure just because we still are in this world. The refiners fire.
Its true that we are as righteous as we ever be for this is the imputed righteousness of the Son. But, the glory, or the light is according to our walk?
This is subject to change if I'm wrong and will consider the word anyone provides. Am not yet settled on this.
I am beginning to think of the sufferings that we go through is not so much for ministry, but glory. Ministry would be by the gifts of Holy Spirit, do you agree? So the feast that we are yet to take part of is Tabernacles. I've said this so many times, but thought the glory would come at the judgement seat when we see Him. Am not so sure of that now.
Romans 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace by which we have been established, and we boast because of our hope in God's glory.
Rom 5:3 Not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
Rom 5:4 endurance produces character, and character produces hope.
Rom 5:5 Now this hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
The personal testings that we endure just because we still are in this world. The refiners fire.
Its true that we are as righteous as we ever be for this is the imputed righteousness of the Son. But, the glory, or the light is according to our walk?
This is subject to change if I'm wrong and will consider the word anyone provides. Am not yet settled on this.