The Grace Revolution and The Word of Faith

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Apr 23, 2017
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#41
​Also, if it is not Faith in Christ and Him Crucified it is Law.
this one ive never heard before......... this would leave u with a bible of about 20 verses u see...... even paul's letters are law lol... think about what u hear.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#42
1) All things work for the good of us who believe .... In the Eternal scheme of things...

Telling people that all things in this flesh life on this fallen world will be peachy is a sure fire way to set people up for a life of disapointment and dispare..


2) Jesus did go to Hell.. But scriptures do not say anything about Him suffering there.. he went and preached to the souls imprissoned there..

1 Peter 3: KJV
18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: {19} By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; {20} Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
 
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heartofdavid

Guest
#43
Correct. For anyone to blatantly disregard the conditions (as Prince does) means that they are false teachers. Joseph Prince, Paul Ellis, Kenneth Copeland, etc. have shown themselves to be such, and Christians should beware of false teachers, false apostles, and false prophets.

The thing about false teachers is that they skirt so close to the truth, that you almost fall for their deception. But when you look at Scripture and compare their words, you can tell that they are misleading people, either for gain, or for popularity, or for any number of base motives. True preachers will never be popular today.
Show us the exclusion. Where they actually say the "conditions" are Gods mistake.
Their strength is the word of God,the bible.
In their schools they hammer Gods word inti their students. They come out as bereans.

Now, where their error exists, is in the realm of emphesis. They emphecise prosperity and blessing.

What you guys do is rely on hank hanegreaff,a known crook and plaguerist to supply the coveted ammo to wreck ministries.

Word of faith is off. But not in letter. They are off in emphesis.
The copeland ,prince,hagin,myers "quotes" are source questionable and so obscure that I,having come out of word of faith and sitting under hundreds of hours of teaching HAVE NEVER HEARD ANY OF IT.
Dirt is like a belly button all have it.
None of you EVER saw the dirt on hanegraff,but think you are hearing truth. The one handing you the brownie has poop all over his hands but since you don't taste it,you brag and brag on how delicious it "truly" is.

Not one of you dare post theses ministries statement if faith,and yet that SHOULD BE a normal starting place.

Hanegraff has a destroyer ministry. He is absolutely out to destroy the body of Christ
 
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heartofdavid

Guest
#44
1) All things work for the good of us who believe .... In the Eternal scheme of things...

Telling people that all things in this flesh life on this fallen world will be peachy is a sure fire way to set people up for a life of disapointment and dispare..


2) Jesus did go to Hell.. But scriptures do not say anything about Him suffering there.. he went and preached to the souls imprissoned there..

1 Peter 3: KJV
18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: {19} By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; {20} Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
Some of your post is true. They should present the afflictions of the righteous. That is one reason i departed WOF.

One could pick any denomination. Then cherry pick ministers out of that denomination and proceed to blanket indict the entire denomination.

Who has time for that sillyness.?

Pssssst. Hank got rich doing just that
 
Nov 6, 2017
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#45
Jesus Himself said that He would descend into "the heart of the earth" (the lower parts of the earth). Sheol/Hades is within the core of the earth.

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Mt 12:40).

No it does not just mean earth. And yes, Christ was in Sheol/Hades proclaiming ("preaching") His victory on the Cross to the spirits in prison. It was also necessary for Him to be there to take all the OT saints with Him To Heaven, "when He ascended up on high".
Paul recorded this happening in Col 2:15

[SUP]15 [/SUP]When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
 
Nov 6, 2017
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#46
When any Pastor or Christian bypass the Christ and Him Crucified (condition #1), Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace (Gal. 5:4). You have now entered philosophy (the world).
If you are going on witch hunts of other public pastors to exalt Jimmy Swaggert and the teaching he has put in you, you lose all credibility.
 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#47
Only the Holy Spirit can keep any law and do what needs to be done in us. There is no good and hope in us. We are unable to serve God in our own strength and power. But, when we place and maintain our Faith exclusively in who Christ is, God's beloved Son Jesus, who He is and what He has done at the Cross of Calvary we receive all the benefits of the Resurrection Life. Why? Because the Holy Spirit sees us as a living sacrifice glorifying Christ. This is called the "Law of the Spirit (Holy Spirit) of Life In Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2). Only then does all things work together for good because you are in the spirit and not the flesh. There is nothing God would accept from you or me except Faith in His Beloved Son Jesus. This is what it means to deny yourself and pick up your on cross and follow Him.
I agree with everything you have written here.

How does this change the fact that we love Him because He first loved us?

The only way to God is through Jesus Christ (John 14:6)...the only way to Jesus Christ is by the Means of the Cross (Luke 14:27). The only way to the Cross is a denial of self (Luke 9:23). If any person tries to come any other way, Jesus says, "they are a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).


1. Jesus Christ is the source of all blessings.
2. The Cross is the means by which all blessings are given.
3. The object of our faith must be Christ and the Cross.
4. That being done, the Holy Spirit will greatly help us.
We aren't blessed through the Cross as if the Cross is part of the Trinity.

We are blessed by what the Lord Jesus Christ did on that Cross.

But the Cross is not the only work that the Lord Jesus Christ did that blesses us. He also Resurrected. He also sat down at the Right hand of God.

This is almost nit-picking because the Cross is the start of all of our blessing. But its not the end.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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#48
It is unfortunate that the KJV used the word "hell" for Hades. Christ's soul and spirit did go to Hades for three days and three nights. But that was AFTER He finished His work of redemption on the Cross.

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27).
Why is it in your opinion that the KJV used Hell instead of Hades??
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#49
I agree with everything you have written here.

How does this change the fact that we love Him because He first loved us?

​We aren't blessed through the Cross as if the Cross is part of the Trinity.

We are blessed by what the Lord Jesus Christ did on that Cross.

But the Cross is not the only work that the Lord Jesus Christ did that blesses us. He also Resurrected. He also sat down at the Right hand of God.

This is almost nit-picking because the Cross is the start of all of our blessing. But its not the end.

Read this and study this.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]
For it is written:“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate (warning to you).”
[SUP][c]*******[/SUP]


[SUP]20 [/SUP]Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, [SUP]23 [/SUP]but we preach Christ crucified (i.e. the Cross): a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength (1 Corinthians 1:18-25 NIV).

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified (i.e. the Cross) (1 Corinthians 2:2).

Is redemption centered up in the Cross of Christ or the Resurrection of Christ?

Answer:

Redemption is centered up totally in the Cross of Christ. While everything else after the Cross, the Resurrection, Ascension, and Exaltation of Christ, played a tremendous part, and continues to play a tremendous part, the truth is, all of this is made possible, the Resurrection, Ascension and Exaltation of Christ, because of the Cross.

Victory = The Cross of Christ, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, i.e., The Finished Work

Pastor Jimmy Swaggart

 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#50
How does all that change the fact that we Love Him because He first loved us?

Are we allowed to Love Christ? Or only His Cross? His Cross doesn't love us...
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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#51
I honestly take this to mean that God "descended" onto earth, I see it says the "lower parts of the earth", but I couldn't find anyone that names this "Hell", I think it just means earth, I don't see at all where is says anything about Jesus suffering in Hell for our sins. I still don't see it.

You do not see it because you are right, it is not there, Jesus started fulfilling Isaiah 53 right after Peter denied Him for the third time. Which also marked the start of His three days and three night or 72 hours for His work of atonement. This was on Thursday around 3 A.M., which the Romans called the last watch, because it was the last three hour period of the darkness. Then when we look at when the women came to the Tomb, it was around 6 A.M., Jesus had already risen some time between 3 A.M and 6 A.M. which would be the full 72 hours or three days and three nights or after three days, that Jesus suffered all that He taught His disciples, which included His crucifixion, death and resurrection.

Luke 22:60-62 “But Peter said, “Man, I do not know what you are talking about.” And immediately, while he was still speaking, the rooster crowed.61 And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the saying of the Lord, how he had said to him, “Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me three times.”62 And he went out and wept bitterly.”

Now let's look at verses 63-65 “Now the men who were holding Jesus in custody were mocking him as they beat him.64 They also blindfolded him and kept asking him, “Prophesy! Who is it that struck you?”65 And they said many other things against him, blaspheming him.”

Here's some of what Jesus taught about His atoning work.

Matthew 16:21 “From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.”

Mark 8:31 “And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.”

Luke 9:21-22 “And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one,22 saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.”

Matthew 20:17-19 “And as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside, and on the way he said to them,18“See, we are going up to Jerusalem. And the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death19and deliver him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day.”

Mark 10:32-34 “And they were on the road, going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking ahead of them. And they were amazed, and those who followed were afraid. And taking the twelve again, he began to tell them what was to happen to him,33 saying, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the Gentiles.34 And they will mock him and spit on him, and flog him and kill him. And after three days he will rise.”

Luke 18:31-33 “And taking the twelve, he said to them, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written about the Son of Man by the prophets will be accomplished.32For he will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit upon.33And after flogging him, they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise.”

You are right Jesus never teaches that He will suffer in hell as part of His atoning work.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#52
How does all that change the fact that we Love Him because He first loved us?

Are we allowed to Love Christ? Or only His Cross? His Cross doesn't love us...
You must recognize your moral and spiritual poverty. There is no good and hope in you. You are unable to love, and serve God in your own strength and power. However, when you place and maintain your Faith in God's beloved Son Jesus, whom He is pleased; and the Cross of Calvary where the victory was won, this glorifies Christ because you have become a living sacrifice. The Law of the Spirit (Holy Spirit) of Life In Christ Jesus is activated (Romans 8:2).

The Holy Spirit only works and help us in the parameters of Christ and the Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, i.e., The Finished Work of Christ at Calvary Cross. Because the Believer is now operating in the Spirit, the Holy Spirit mortifies the deeds of our flesh. He keeps all laws and commands (including loving our Lord God with all of your heart, with all of your soul, and with all of your strength, and with all of your mind; and loving your neighbor as thyself). When God looks at you He wants to see His Son Jesus (the Blood Sacrifice - Gal. 2:20-21) and never you again. There is nothing God will accept from you but Faith in His Son Jesus and The Cross where the victory was won. Anything you offer God in your own strength is sending strange fire, i.e., spiritual adultery.

So I hope you understand now this is how you love God. If you love me keep my commandments! You have learned how to do this.
 
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joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
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#53



Righteousness is a gift we received from Jesus. A believer cannot be 'more' righteous than he/she was made the moment they were saved and brought into right relationship to God. Walking in the light is what all believers do based on our righteous standing when we walk, we are IN the light of Christ due to Christ, not due to where our physical feet are walking.

The one who has Jesus has been cleansed of all sins at the time of their salvation. Jesus has already dealt with our sin past...present and future At the cross. That is what gives us the proper/right standing before God. We don't confess our sins (as a believer) to be forgiven. Jesus already forgave us and made us perfect by His imputed righteousness given unto us.

Now that we are saved / born again... we speak openly to God because we have already been forgiven. To say we have to confess sins in order to be forgiven again and again and again.,, than it is dependent on ME and not dependent on what Jesus has done. Sin was dealt with on the cross. His body is seated at the right hand of the Father. It isn't me sitting on the right hand of the Father., it is Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father because He finished the work completely.

Heb.10:1-14 Have our sins been taken care of as born again Christians? Read 1-14 and you will have your answer. No more sacrifices for sins are available. I'm a believer who knows all my sins are forgiven because of Jesus once for all. How many times? Once...for all. Is Jesus offering His body every day for my sins? No, He did it once for all. AMEN.

One offering., He hath forever cleansed forever... not when I confess again and again to get cleansed... no. it happened at the time I got saved and got my sins all forgiven. Cleansed and perfected. Made holy when we were born again. Consecrated when we got born again., Holiness is a position based on who you are in Christ. Not what you do.... but what you are IN Christ.

We believers were given the position we now enjoy in Christ. We don't earn that position by daily confessing sins. We confess our righteousness because we are already forgiven. Amen. We have been liberated in Christ. Set free in Christ. In whom we have redemption through His blood according to the riches of His grace... not the richness of your confession.

Saved people are forgiven people. Grace is unmerited love and favor in Christ through faith. We don't live from confession to confession but from faith to faith. The day we confessed our sin., that's the day we got rid of it. 2000 yrs. ago Jesus got rid of it. Believe and live this out from faith to faith. Amen.

If you believe you have to confess every sin., you better not forget even one. Even the little ones you forget. And if you forgot you are in big trouble. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin... so you would be in major trouble. Doubt and fear are sins. Bad attitude is sin.... to know to do good and do it not .... you will have to confess alllll the time. You would not get a rest folks.

Excellent message by Creflo Dollar. Listened to it and am in agreement with him. You want to be set free? Listen to this message tonight and those like it by Bible preaching., Holy Spirit lead believers. Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation fr those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. AMEN!

Receive the gift of NO condemnation each day. That is what this message is all about brothers and sisters. Sure hope you listen to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuCkZ9nwV1M&feature=youtu.be
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
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#54
Creflo Dollar sermon 2017 - Do I Have to Confess my Sins for God to Forgive - Sermon 2017


Start from 14:35 - 16:30 your thoughts on this doctrine. 1 John 1:9

https://youtu.be/KuCkZ9nwV1M



This is 100% sound doctrine. Praise the Lord for preachers who preach the truth regardless of the old religious strongholds. This topic has been discussed on CC many times before. Now good ol Creflo now got it too. :) And it changed his preaching radically.
 
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Sep 3, 2016
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#55
The path of the righteous gets brighter and brighter everyday. Proverbs 4:18 NASB

When darkness overtakes the godly, light will come bursting in. They are generous, compassionate, and righteous.
Psalms 112:4 NLT


Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.
Romans 8:33 NIV


The only way you grieve the Holy Spirit is when your faith is not exclusively in Christ and the Cross, i.e., finished work of Christ, i.e., the Blood of Jesus.

Repenting and Confessing Sin
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:5-10 NKJV

God is telling us that He only operates in the light. You must confess your sins that He reveals to you
(This Activates The Cross To Deal With Sin). (Bonus) And He will be faithful to cleanse us from all other sins that you do not know about (The Blood Of Jesus Cleanse Us, Heals Us, Deliver Us, And So Much More!). Failure to do so, you are in darkness and you are a liar. You have know fellowship with Him.
 
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joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
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#56
[FONT=&quot]Here is a post about another Christian in history who we know and sing her songs in churches all over the world. Taken from another thread some weeks back by our brother Bruce. When I heard this last year about Miss Havergale I was moved because here was a well known learned woman., a prodigy who sought truth each day and we are blessed by her songs. [/FONT]


Re: Does the Holy Spirit convict the born again believer of sin?

Sometimes we think some truths are new but in reality they are not. Here is someone back in the 1800's that had a supposedly "heretical" understanding of grace in the form of our sins being forgiven and those sins were continually being washed by the blood of Jesus.

I was reading about a hymn writer from the 1800's called Frances Ridley Havergal. She wrote many hymns and knew Latin, French, German, Greek and Hebrew.

She also knew by heart the 4 gospels, epistles and the book of Revelation by the time she was 23 years old - yet she still lived in total defeat.


She thought she had "great wickedness in her heart" - because of religious traditions taught to her which is what humanistic belief systems believe. They think Christians are a "new evolution" and thus they need to create and maintain their own self-righteousness.

It wasn't until she was reading in the Greek that the present tense was used for 1 John 1:7 "...His blood cleanseth us from all sin".

She realized all her sins were forgiven by the blood of Jesus and thus she believed it and experienced peace and joy in her life because of this truth and lived a holier life.

Here is a direct QUOTE:

" Have we not been limiting 1 John 1:7 , by practically making it refer only to "remission of sins that are past" instead of taking the grand simplicity of "cleanseth from all sin"?


"All" is all; and as we may trust Him to cleanse us from the stain of past sins so we may trust Him to cleanse us from all present defilement; yes, all!

By refusing to take 1 John 1:7 in it's fullness, we will lose the fullness of it's application and power in our lives. It goes on cleansing , and I have no words to tell how my heart rejoices in it."

UNQUOTE:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=zO_...%22%3F&f=false

She got the revelation that all her sins were forgiven because she was in Christ and thus always in the Light and His blood continually cleansed her. She was able to walk free in Christ from that point on. Today she would be called a heretic and being in error by some for having this belief.

Believing the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ finished work on the cross and resurrection will change us as we grow in His grace. We grow in His grace by the "hearing of Christ Himself".

Here is a book for those interested in her life: Jennie Chappell, "Women Who Have Worked and Won: the life story of Mrs. Spurgeon, Mrs. Booth-Tucker, F.R. Havergal, and Ramabai," London: S.W. Partridge & Co. Ltd. 1904


 
Sep 3, 2016
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#57
Here is a post about another Christian in history who we know and sing her songs in churches all over the world. Taken from another thread some weeks back by our brother Bruce. When I heard this last year about Miss Havergale I was moved because here was a well known learned woman., a prodigy who sought truth each day and we are blessed by her songs.


Re: Does the Holy Spirit convict the born again believer of sin?

Sometimes we think some truths are new but in reality they are not. Here is someone back in the 1800's that had a supposedly "heretical" understanding of grace in the form of our sins being forgiven and those sins were continually being washed by the blood of Jesus.

I was reading about a hymn writer from the 1800's called Frances Ridley Havergal. She wrote many hymns and knew Latin, French, German, Greek and Hebrew.

She also knew by heart the 4 gospels, epistles and the book of Revelation by the time she was 23 years old - yet she still lived in total defeat.


She thought she had "great wickedness in her heart" - because of religious traditions taught to her which is what humanistic belief systems believe. They think Christians are a "new evolution" and thus they need to create and maintain their own self-righteousness.

It wasn't until she was reading in the Greek that the present tense was used for 1 John 1:7 "...His blood cleanseth us from all sin".

She realized all her sins were forgiven by the blood of Jesus and thus she believed it and experienced peace and joy in her life because of this truth and lived a holier life.

Here is a direct QUOTE:

" Have we not been limiting 1 John 1:7 , by practically making it refer only to "remission of sins that are past" instead of taking the grand simplicity of "cleanseth from all sin"?


"All" is all; and as we may trust Him to cleanse us from the stain of past sins so we may trust Him to cleanse us from all present defilement; yes, all!

By refusing to take 1 John 1:7 in it's fullness, we will lose the fullness of it's application and power in our lives. It goes on cleansing , and I have no words to tell how my heart rejoices in it."

UNQUOTE:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=zO_...%22%3F&f=false

She got the revelation that all her sins were forgiven because she was in Christ and thus always in the Light and His blood continually cleansed her. She was able to walk free in Christ from that point on. Today she would be called a heretic and being in error by some for having this belief.

Believing the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ finished work on the cross and resurrection will change us as we grow in His grace. We grow in His grace by the "hearing of Christ Himself".

Here is a book for those interested in her life: Jennie Chappell, "Women Who Have Worked and Won: the life story of Mrs. Spurgeon, Mrs. Booth-Tucker, F.R. Havergal, and Ramabai," London: S.W. Partridge & Co. Ltd. 1904


Does the Holy Spirit convict the born again believer of sin?
What do you believe?
 
Sep 14, 2017
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#59
This is 100% sound doctrine. Praise the Lord for preachers who preach the truth regardless of the old religious strongholds. This topic has been discussed on CC many times before. Now good ol Creflo now got it too. :) And it changed his preaching radically.

 
Feb 28, 2016
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#60
JM, my love, do your research about the charlatans of the devil -