Are you saved if you are not obedient?

[preacher4truth]

Nope. You are probably among the many who confuse people saying obedience is the sign of being born again with saying they earn their salvation by their obedience.

Nope, that doesn't represent me at all. Don't go getting out of control with your false accusations, OK? In fact, end it. Thanks.

People in church think their good works save them and that is a fact.

 

[Ralph-]

That is exactly my point. How can that not be seen?


That is exactly my point. How can that not be seen?

And it is exactly the point of the verse.

We can boast all we want about how well we followed Him, followed His example, followed His ANYTHING. But if we have never truly trusted in His work for us for our salvation , we are LAWLESS. Working 'good'(which is evil) from our flesh.

Which law(s) did these people keep that caused them to be condemned for being lawless? Is working miracles and casting out demons in Christ's name laws of Moses? Isn't it rather that they did not keep the law of Moses that made them lawless?

 

[Ralph-]

Nope, that doesn't represent me at all. Don't go getting out of control with your false accusations, OK? In fact, end it. Thanks.

People in church think their good works save them and that is a fact.

Set me straight and point me to the posts where Christians are saying salvation is earned by doing works. That will end the contention. You aren't going to find them (one maybe?). What you will find are posts that you have decided that's what those Christians are doing. Prove me wrong on this.

 

[Ralph-]

The difference between the saved and the unsaved: saved people will eventually get out of disobedience. It may be years. Or, if they do not voluntarily get out of disobedience, God will take them home- like Annanias and Sapphira or the people having orgies at the Agape feasts in Corinthians.

You can not say “so and so is a drunk- so must not be saved”. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.

Sin itself is not the issue. The BONDAGE to sin is the issue. If you are in bondage to sin, not just dealing with it like all Christians do, then you need to examine yourself to see if you are really in the faith.

 

[Mercy4u]

If you say you are in the bondage of sin like Paul was in Romans 7 then you are a Romans 7 person. You have yet to come into the Romans 8 answer to that bondage of sin. The answer is not that God gives you his Spirit and it's okay now. The answer is he gives you his Spirit so that you can not be in bondage to sin anymore.

We are still in bondage to sin if that is our focus, our fight and our battle. It is a sin focused life. Bound in sin, even if we think we are gaining and winning.

Being filled with the Spirit and Walking in the Spirit has no room for sin. Even the thought of sin.

But if we are ruled by the flesh and let the flesh take over again...sin becomes #1 and not the Lord Jesus Christ and being filled with the Spirit and walking in the SPirit.

 

[Ralph-]

Paul wasn't in the bondage of sin in Romans 7. You're also calling another here lost.

Anybody who is 'in the flesh' is not born again. They do not belong to Christ. Paul said so.

 

[Bogadile]

Peter denied Jesus, if that were to happen today to some man of God he would be deemed lost by the great majority of christendom. However Jesus said:

Luke 22:31-32
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

Judas did not receive the same prayer from Jesus, and Judas did not turn again.

 

[Bogadile]

Sin itself is not the issue. The BONDAGE to sin is the issue. If you are in bondage to sin, not just dealing with it like all Christians do, then you need to examine yourself to see if you are really in the faith.

Where do you draw the line between dealing with sin and being in bondage to sin?

 

[Ralph-]

Nope. Romans 7 people preach obedience, We disciple young christians on how to be even more obedient, and we help God change their lives and help them with their weekenesses.

What we appose is people who claim obedience is required to maintain salvation.

You only hear what you want to hear, and then you attack people as unlearned.. I fear you have been indoctrinated to the point you can not hear what anyone says.

Obedience is required to maintain salvation???? Where are you getting this stuff? I do not have anyone on ignore so I don't think I've missed any posts here, have I?

 

[Galatea]

Sin itself is not the issue. The BONDAGE to sin is the issue. If you are in bondage to sin, not just dealing with it like all Christians do, then you need to examine yourself to see if you are really in the faith.

I maintain a person can be in bondage to sin and be saved- just not in close communion with God. Samson was in bondage, yet he was saved.

There are many people fighting addictions who are saved. I daresay some of us on this site are addicted and in bondage to this site.

 

[preacher4truth]

Set me straight and point me to the posts where Christians are saying salvation is earned by doing works. That will end the contention. You aren't going to find them (one maybe?). What you will find are posts that you have decided that's what those Christians are doing. Prove me wrong on this.

First thing you should do is like a good fellow apologize or at least admit your asinine and callow false accusations toward me. You're out of control with your mouth, Ralph-.

Also, you've gone from saying this doesn't happen in churches to saying prove it by posts on a forum? Dude, hang it up and quit changing the format. Stick to the facts and context.

There are plenty in church who believe their good works save them. You're asking me now to prove it with a post on a forum? LOL!!!!!!!!!!

 

[preacher4truth]

Anybody who is 'in the flesh' is not born again. They do not belong to Christ. Paul said so.

He didn't say that in Romans 7. Try being honest and stick to the facts and context without conflation and straw men?

Thanks!

 

[Mercy4u]

Set me straight and point me to the posts where Christians are saying salvation is earned by doing works. That will end the contention. You aren't going to find them (one maybe?). What you will find are posts that you have decided that's what those Christians are doing. Prove me wrong on this.

Which law(s) did these people keep that caused them to be condemned for being lawless? Is working miracles and casting out demons in Christ's name laws of Moses? Isn't it rather that they did not keep the law of Moses that made them lawless?

That's one.

 

[Issachar92]

The difference between the saved and the unsaved: saved people will eventually get out of disobedience. It may be years. Or, if they do not voluntarily get out of disobedience, God will take them home- like Annanias and Sapphira or the people having orgies at the Agape feasts in Corinthians.

You can not say “so and so is a drunk- so must not be saved”. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.

Lets get it:

1. How did ya figure Annanias and sapphira were saved after what they did and the Lord took em home? This is one of the most ridicilous doctrines ive ever heard. Its saying sin more and get to heaven quicker. The usual double-talk of "Dont sin, but even if ya do its OK the Lord will just take you home early." and if I were to press the issue the folks flipflop and revert to the "well they probably wasnt TRULY saved to begin with".

2. Yes you can say so and so is a drunk so must not be saved, just watch Paul say exactly that in Galatians 5:21. He lists a bunch of other folks who wont inherit the kingdom.

 

[Ralph-]

Where do you draw the line between dealing with sin and being in bondage to sin?

The mind set on the flesh is bondage to sin. It can't resist sin. That is the mind of the one still in the flesh and without the Spirit. The mind set on the Spirit is where the struggle with sin comes from.

I don't think many Christians can see the difference because they don't have the new experience of a mind that is set on the Spirit to be able to know the difference. Been there, done that. It's only because I am now, by God's grace, set free from the bondage of sin through having a mind set on the Spirit that I can tell the difference between the two. That's not sinless perfection. That's a battle between what my flesh wants to do and what the deepest inward part of me, not my rational mind, wants to do. That's what being born again is all about.

 

[Ralph-]

That's one.

What are you talking about?????

Can you just show us where these people you're talking about that Jesus condemned as being lawless were keeping the law in order to save themselves?

 

[Ralph-]

He didn't say that in Romans 7. Try being honest and stick to the facts and context without conflation and straw men?

Thanks!

It's in chapter 8. Paul said the one who is still in the flesh does not belong to Christ. They are not born again. Being in the flesh is not the same as being in a struggle with sin. You have to have the new nature to have a struggle with sin in your most inward place, beyond even your conscious mind, in your spirit. When the deepest most inward place in you is still in agreement with the flesh you don't have a struggle. You are in bondage to sin. It won.

 

[Ralph-]

First thing you should do is like a good fellow apologize or at least admit your asinine and callow false accusations toward me. You're out of control with your mouth, Ralph-.

Also, you've gone from saying this doesn't happen in churches to saying prove it by posts on a forum? Dude, hang it up and quit changing the format. Stick to the facts and context.

There are plenty in church who believe their good works save them. You're asking me now to prove it with a post on a forum? LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Uh oh. You're at the 'lol' stage. Not a good sign.

Where is this proof that there are Christians that believe their works earn them their salvation? Is there a respectable denomination that teaches this? That would help. I'm not aware of any. And I've never fellowshiped with a professing believer who sincerely thought his works bought him his salvation. This is not the 1st century. The message of grace is so well understood and accepted in the church that working to earn your salvation is not even an issue anymore. But I know it makes for readily available sermon material to peach to the choir.

 

[Mercy4u]

What are you talking about?????

Can you just show us where these people you're talking about that Jesus condemned as being lawless were keeping the law in order to save themselves?

I am not showing you that nor are the verses we are talking about.

The verses in question speak of people who mimic Him(in your name did we not do...?). His good deeds, his lifestyle, His morality and Jesus Christ calls them lawless. And He never knew them.

Sound familiar to the subject at hand?

 

[Ralph-]

I am not showing you that nor are the verse we are talking about.

The verses in question speak of people who mimic Him(in your name did we not do...?). His good deeds, his lifestyle, His morality and Jesus Christ calls them lawless. And He never knew them.

Sound familiar to the subject at hand?

His morality? Where does it say that? Seriously. I see where they were doing ministry, and associating with Him in the streets where he preached, and thinking that was going to make it good with them and God. I see no reference to them keeping the law in obedience in the hope it would earn them salvation.