Do we Believe Jesus and/or Obey Jesus?

[Marcelo]

Originally Posted by Marcelo

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Romans 7 ►​

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New International Version

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Released From the Law, Bound to Christ

1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP]a[/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
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You isolate Paul's words, he says he is dead to sin and alive to Yah';s Law:

Where did Paul say that he was alive in the law of God given to the Israelites by Moses?

 

[garee]

Where did Paul say that he was alive in the law of God given to the Israelites by Moses?

It depends on how a person defines the law of God. His living word is Law.

It would be like the old Wrigley Spearmint . Two two, two mints in one.

The law of God is the gospel of God. It is not a theory of men. It works two ways in order to make it complete or perfect.

Paul was alive in the law of God given to the Israelites by Moses, according to the unseen spirit of the law, called the law of faith. I think it is why together (the letter and the spirit )it is called the perfect or complete law.

(1) The letter kills showing us our need for new spirit life and (2) the spirits of the law gives us his understanding as a witness, we have passed from death to life.

Psalms 19 says it beautifully.

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Psa 19:13

Its that kind of law that made Paul alive.

 

[Marcelo]

It depends on how a person defines the law of God.

I know that Hizikyah is talking about the 613 mitzvot (law of Moses). I want Hizikyah to show me where Paul said he was alive in the 613 mitzvot.

 

[Hizikyah]

I know that Hizikyah is talking about the 613 mitzvot (law of Moses). I want Hizikyah to show me where Paul said he was alive in the 613 mitzvot.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."[/FONT]

he even took a nazerite vow:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

and remember Paul also taugt:

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though YHWH's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Yisra’yl who belongs to Yisra’yl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are YHWH's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."[/FONT]

 

[Marcelo]

Hizikyah;3394435]Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Paul is defending himself from the accusations and states that he believes everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets.

Paul said he believed in the Law, but he didn't say he kept it (or that Christians were supposed to keep it).

I, too, believe in the Law, but I don't believe we have to keep it. Nobody keeps the Law and this includes you.

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

They were in a transitional period from Law to grace. In Jerusalem Christian Jews were still keeping the Law and it looks like Paul was trying to be all things to all men.

 

[Hizikyah]

Paul is defending himself from the accusations and states that he believes everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets.

Paul said he believed in the Law, but he didn't say he kept it (or that Christians were supposed to keep it).

I, too, believe in the Law, but I don't believe we have to keep it. Nobody keeps the Law and this includes you.





They were in a transitional period from Law to grace. In Jerusalem Christian Jews were still keeping the Law and it looks like Paul was trying to be all things to all men.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to Me; Master! Master! will enter into the Kingdom of YHWH, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Master! Master! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practiceiniquity.”[/FONT]


“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]practice” is word #G2038 Strong's Concordance - ergazomai: I work, trade, do, Original Word: ἐργάζομαι, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: ergazomai, Phonetic Spelling: (er-gad'-zom-ahee), Short Definition: I work, trade, do, Definition: I work, trade, perform, do, practice, commit, acquire by labor.[/FONT]


“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]iniquity” is word #G458 Strong's Concordance - anomia, lawlessness, Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."[/FONT]

 

[Marcelo]

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."

This has nothing to do with my statement -- you didn't debunk it.

 

[MarcR]

I should be imbarrased because you say so? Look if you were really trying to build up you would not be making personal attacks.

So tell me this, how can you prove which one of these is the Messiah's name:

יֵשׁוַּע
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יְהוֹשׁוּעַ
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In my previous answer I didm't show what I intended.

To give an example :

If I post in what I represent to be English:

He nam i Alic

Someone might figure out that her name is Alice; but her name will never become Alic no matter how much I desire it to be so.

 

[MarcR]

In my previous answer I didm't show what I intended.

To give an example :

If I post in what I represent to be English:

He nam i Alic

Someone might figure out that her name is Alice; but her name will never become Alic no matter how much I desire it to be so.

Sorry I got called away and it timed out.

My point was that sounds have meaning in Hebrew too! When you make changes they often destroy the way the language works.

 

[Marcelo]

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."

Don't worry, Hizikyah, Christians don't have to keep the law (= the law of God given to the Israelites through Moses). In the New Testament you'll find everything you need for your salvation. God does not expect you to keep all the 613 mitzvot -- He knows that nobody does it.

 

[Hizikyah]

Don't worry, Hizikyah, Christians don't have to keep the law (= the law of God given to the Israelites through Moses). In the New Testament you'll find everything you need for your salvation. God does not expect you to keep all the 613 mitzvot -- He knows that nobody does it.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Which Commands are valid for the followers of Messiah Yahshua/Jesus? All of them.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."[/FONT]


“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]all” is word #G3650 - holos - Strong's Concordance, holos: whole, complete, Original Word: ὅλος, η, ον, Part of Speech: Adjective, Transliteration: holos, Phonetic Spelling: (hol'-os), Short Definition: all, the whole, entire, Definition: all, the whole, entire, complete[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Heaven and earth has not yet passed:[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away." [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In the same way all has not yet been fulfilled:[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 24:44-46, “And He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all have to be fulfilled that were written in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it has been written, and so it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise again from the dead the third day.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 45:21-22, “Declare and bring near, let them even take counsel together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has declared it from that time? Is it not I, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]? And there is no mighty one besides Me, a righteous Power and Savior, there is none besides Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am Strength, and there is none else.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 46:10, “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from of old that which has not yet been done, saying, ‘My counsel does stand, and all My delight I do.”[/FONT]

 

[Marcelo]

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

The Greek word for LAW here (NOMOS) doesn't specifically refer to the Torah. ANOMIA means LAWLESSNESS, INIQUITY, DISOBEDIENCE. If I don't sacrifice animals, if I don't burn incense, if I don't get circumcised, if I don't keep the Sabbath, etc., I am not transgressing God's laws. God's laws for Christians are in the New Testament.

 

[Studyman]

The Greek word for LAW here (NOMOS) doesn't specifically refer to the Torah. ANOMIA means LAWLESSNESS, INIQUITY, DISOBEDIENCE. If I don't sacrifice animals, if I don't burn incense, if I don't get circumcised, if I don't keep the Sabbath, etc., I am not transgressing God's laws. God's laws for Christians are in the New Testament.

It was actually a sin against God for anyone who wasn't a Levite priest to sacrifice animals or burn incense unto the Lord.

So you, not sacrificing animals, or not burning incense, is actually obeying Jesus, even if it is just an accident.

 

[Hizikyah]

The Greek word for LAW here (NOMOS) doesn't specifically refer to the Torah. ANOMIA means LAWLESSNESS, INIQUITY, DISOBEDIENCE. If I don't sacrifice animals, if I don't burn incense, if I don't get circumcised, if I don't keep the Sabbath, etc., I am not transgressing God's laws. God's laws for Christians are in the New Testament.

SO on the Sabbath 2 lambs were to be sacrificed, and I hear those in oppisition cry but 2 lambs 2 lambs, as SM said, this was never the job of the people, it was for priests only, and even at that it was 2 lambs for all Israyl not each person.

Im certian Yahshua has already/is currently able to do everything required as High Priest.

 

[Nehemiah6]

SO on the Sabbath 2 lambs were to be sacrificed, and I hear those in oppisition cry but 2 lambs 2 lambs, as SM said, this was never the job of the people, it was for priests only, and even at that it was 2 lambs for all Israyl not each person.

Im certian Yahshua has already/is currently able to do everything required as High Priest.

The only problem is that the Lamb of God as both High Priest and Sacrifice offered up Himself ONCE AND FOR ALL TIME. Which means there is no more reverting to Moses. That is why God the Father told those three apostles -- Peter, James, and John -- about His beloved Son -- "HEAR YE HIM". And Moses had already stated this in Deuteronomy.

 

[Hizikyah]

SO on the Sabbath 2 lambs were to be sacrificed, and I hear those in oppisition cry but 2 lambs 2 lambs, as SM said, this was never the job of the people, it was for priests only, and even at that it was 2 lambs for all Israyl not each person.

Im certian Yahshua has already/is currently able to do everything required as High Priest.

The only problem is that the Lamb of God as both High Priest and Sacrifice offered up Himself ONCE AND FOR ALL TIME. Which means there is no more reverting to Moses. That is why God the Father told those three apostles -- Peter, James, and John -- about His beloved Son -- "HEAR YE HIM". And Moses had already stated this in Deuteronomy.

Yeah that is exactly what I was saying, and is why I said this:

Im certian Yahshua has already/is currently able to do everything required as High Priest.

That does not then make the 7th day not set apart.

 

[Nehemiah6]

That does not then make the 7th day not set apart.

As long as you also set apart the 8th day, there should be no problem.

 

[Hizikyah]

As long as you also set apart the 8th day, there should be no problem.

For what reason? There is not a single Scripture saying the Creator set aside the 8th (1st day). So this woul be man dictated tradition to do so and the messiah did not resurrect on the 1st day either... SO I don't see why this would be so.

 

[Nehemiah6]

For what reason? There is not a single Scripture saying the Creator set aside the 8th (1st day). So this woul be man dictated tradition to do so and the messiah did not resurrect on the 1st day either... SO I don't see why this would be so.

So which day of the week is "the LORD's Day"? (Rev 1:10).

 

[Hizikyah]

So which day of the week is "the LORD's Day"? (Rev 1:10).

it is the return of the Messiah when He executes judgment upon those that remain:

Revelation 1:9-10, “I, Yoḥanan, both your brother and co-sharer in pressure, and in the reign and endurance of יהושע Messiah, came to be on the island that is called Patmos for the Word of יהוה and for the witness of יהושע Messiah. I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of יהוה,a and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet.”

Isaiah 13:9-11, “Howl, for the day of יהוה is near! It comes as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands go limp, every man’s heart melts, and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows take hold of them, they are in pain as a woman in labor; they are amazed at one another, their faces aflame! See, the day of יהוה is coming, fierce, with wrath and heat of displeasure, to lay the earth waste, and destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations do not give off their light. The sun shall be dark at its rising, and the moon not send out its light. And I shall punish the world for its evil, and the wrong for their crookedness, and shall put an end to the arrogance of the proud, and lay low the pride of the ruthless.”

Ezekiel 13:1-9, "And the word of יהוה came to me, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Yisra’yl who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy out of their own heart, ‘Hear the word of יהוה!, "Thus said the Master יהוה, “Woe to the foolish prophets, who are following their own spirit, without having had a vision! O Yisra’yl, your prophets have been like foxes among ruins. You have not gone up into the breaches, nor do you build a wall for the house of Yisra’yl to stand in battle on the day of יהוה, Their visions are false and their divinations a lie, saying, ‘Thus declares יהוה,’ when יהוה has not sent them, yet they expected the word to be confirmed! Have you not seen a false vision, and have you not spoken a divination of lies? You say, ‘יהוה declares,’ when I have not spoken. Therefore thus said the Master יהוה, “Because you have spoken falsehood and seen lies, therefore see, I am against you,” declares the Master יהוה, My hand shall be against the prophets who see falsehood and who divine lies. They shall not be in the council of My people, nor be written in the record of the house of Yisra’yl, and they shall not enter into the land of Yisra’yl. And you shall know that I am the Master יהוה."

Joel 1:14-20, "1:14, "Set apart a fast. Call an assembly, gather the elders, all the inhabitants of the land, into the House of יהוה your Strength, and cry out to יהוה."1:15, "Alas for the day! For the day of יהוה is near, and it comes as destruction from the Almighty."1:16, "Is not the food cut off before our eyes, joy and gladness from the House of our Mighty One?"1:17, "The seed has rotted under their clods, storehouses are laid waste, granaries are broken down, for the grain has withered."1:18, "How the beasts moan! The herds of cattle are restless, because they have no pasture. The flocks of sheep also perish."1:19, "I cry to You יהוה, for fire has consumed the pastures of the wilderness, and a flame has set on fire all the trees of the field."1:20, "Even the beasts of the field cry out to You, for the water streams are dried up, and fire has consumed the pastures of the wilderness."

I came to be in the spirit:

Revelation 1:9-10, “I, Yoḥanan, both your brother and co-sharer in pressure, and in the reign and endurance of יהושע Messiah, came to be on the island that is called Patmos for the Word of יהוה and for the witness of יהושע Messiah. I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of יהוה, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet.”

Revelation 4:1-3, “After this I looked and saw a door having been opened in the heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here and I shall show you what has to take place after this. And immediately I came to be in the Spirit and saw a throne set in the heaven, and One sat on the throne. And He who sat there was like a jasper and a ruby stone in appearance. And there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance.”

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so where is your Scriptual evidence that the Lord's day is sunday?