Is Catholicism Christian? Are Catholics Saved?

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Dec 26, 2017
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First of all it doesn't matter. If you only had one book you still would not believe unless the pope said it was ok. God has been saving men's souls from the very first man to the present day.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I'm asking you honest questions. If you don't have answers that's OK, but no need to try to get in my head as to what I think. If you want to know then ask me. This conversation has probably run its course and I thank you for your time and thoughts during our discussion. Even though we may not agree I got a lot out if it and I hope you did too.

Peace.

-Ernie-
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
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Why would we need to go back in time as that's what historical documents are for. The Bible the Christian Church used was the Latin Vulgate for 1000 years. That's very clearly documented. That Bible has the equivalent of the 73 books I keep referring to. Where is your proof of your bible (66 books) being used by the Christian Church anytime prior to the 14th century? Answer is there is no proof because it wasn't used and is thus false. Prove me wrong.

-Ernie-
I recommend that you, and any others who want to understand how we got the scriptures that we call the Bible today, read "The Canon of Scripture", by F F Bruce. He provides a comprehensive history of the acceptance of the books of the Bible.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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The Eucharist is Jesus, nothing is "attached". How can the worship of Jesus be idol worship? I get it that you don't interpret John 6, Luke 22:19, 1 Cor 11:24 as the Catholic Church does, but why do you think your interpretation is accurate and the Catholic Church's is wrong? I'll assume based on your previous answers that it is because the Holy Spirit working in you tells you that it is. But, this belief would have had you labeled as a heretic by the early Christian Church who did believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Not an easy way to say this but if a heretic then why not one now? Honest question...I'm truly not meaning to offend. I'm just trying to get your point of view.

Thanks.

-Ernie-
I said you had the Eucharist attached to Jesus. Which you did. That was your sentence. "Jesus as present in the Eucharist"

The idol worship I was referring to is the Mary/statue obsession the Catholic Church has. Which you seem to be denying even exits despite overwhelming evidence.

Stop calling the words of The Bible "my interpretation" as if I am making it up.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
the church removed books for political reasons. divine inspiration had nothing to do with it.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Is Catholicism Christian? Are Catholics Saved? Please post with scripture.
We don't have the word "catholc/ism" in the Bible but there's a christian saved in the Bible. The disciples in Antioch were named first.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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During Jesus time, we don't have Roman Catholic Church, we have a Roman Empire...
 
Dec 14, 2017
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During Jesus time, we don't have Roman Catholic Church, we have a Roman Empire...

Based on whose reports? Please NAME EVERY CHRISTIAN DENOMINATION on earth, up to the 16th century, and WHEN that denomination was FOUNDED, and by WHOM!!!
 
Dec 14, 2017
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I said you had the Eucharist attached to Jesus. Which you did. That was your sentence. "Jesus as present in the Eucharist"

The idol worship I was referring to is the Mary/statue obsession the Catholic Church has. Which you seem to be denying even exits despite overwhelming evidence.

Stop calling the words of The Bible "my interpretation" as if I am making it up.

1 Corinthians 11:23-30


23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: that the Lord Jesus, on the night He was betrayed, took bread, 24and when He had given thanks,He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you;do this in remembrance of Me.” 25In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. 27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28Each one must examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

If Jesus was not present in communion, it would not be a sin to consume the body and blood unworthily!
 
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Dec 14, 2017
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Then none are saved for we all sin even after we have been saved.

Christ saves us from the penalty of sin not the presence of sin at least not until we are in His presence in heaven.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Roman catholic church is very exclusive and not universal. They only recognize and fellowship within themselves. All others are lost because they are not part of the Roman catholic church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes, we ALL make mistakes, but the situation is very different when sin is INTENTIONAL, as opposed to UNINTENTIONAL!


Martin Luther - Wikiquote
en.wikiquote.org/wiki/martin_luther
If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are ...
 
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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Hi Jackson,

I have no doubt that you have your own personal interpretations of scripture and I respect that, but you still have not answered my question,

So I ask if your beliefs above are in fact the truth show me the evidence that the Church believed as you believe.

I'm sorry but the bottom line is that you would have been labeled a heretic if you would have professed these beliefs in the year 500, 700, 900 A.D. or any time before 1400 A.D. I'll wait for you to prove me otherwise. Your intentions and interpretations are well meaning, but they just don't represent the truth that validates that Jesus has protected His Church from teaching error. It may be your version of the truth today, but it would have gotten you kicked out of the early Christian Church. Truth can't be just about what we believe today, but must include all times.

Thanks.

-Ernie-
hello ernie

salvation is personal, and the standart of the truth is bible, a church leader may work for money or power, that is Why i believe the bible more

1john 4:1

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

to me this verse mean to test every teaching, believe not every spirit, the teaching may come from church leader, but If not inline with the bible, I am not buy It.

no evident in the binle that peter establish church in rome.

I rather believe binle than human story.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Based on whose reports? Please NAME EVERY CHRISTIAN DENOMINATION on earth, up to the 16th century, and WHEN that denomination was FOUNDED, and by WHOM!!!
We don't have the word "denomination" in the Bible per se, though there are religious people and sects among the days of Christ and apostles. What Christ founded is His church, church not religion or denomination or sect or whatever you call it.

God bless

Acts 5:17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Acts 24:6 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
 
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fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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In agreement with CH Spurgeon...
C.h. spurgeon on baptist perpetuity

"We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at thereformation, we were reformers before Luther or Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the very days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel underground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor I believe any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with the government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men". (From The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol.VII, Page 225).
"History has hitherto been written by our enemies, who never would have kept a single fact about us upon the record if they could have helped it, and yet it leaks out every now and then that certain poor people called Anabaptists were brought up for condemnation. From the days of Henry II to those of Elizabeth we hear of certain unhappy heretics who were hated of all men for the truth's sake which was in them. We read of poor men and women, with their garments cut short, turned out into the fields to perish in the cold, and anon of others who were burnt at Newington for the crime of Anabaptism. Long before your Protestants were known of, these horrible Anabaptists, as they were unjustly called, were protesting for the 'one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.' No sooner did the visible church begin to depart from the gospel than these men arose to keep fast by the good old way. The priests and monks wished for peace and slumber, but there was always a Baptist or a Lollard tickling men's ears with holy Scriptures, and calling their attention to the errors of the times. They were a poor persecuted tribe. The halter was thought to be too good for them. At times ill-written history would have us think that they died out, so well had the wolf done his work on the sheep. Yet here we are, blessed and multiplied; and Newington sees other scenes from Sabbath to Sabbath.
As I think of your numbers and efforts, I can only say in wonder - what a growth! As I think of the multitudes of our brethren in America, I may well say, What hath God wrought! Our history forbids discouragement." (From the Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 1881, Vol. 27, page 249.)
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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1 Corinthians 11:23-30


23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: that the Lord Jesus, on the night He was betrayed, took bread, 24and when He had given thanks,He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you;do this in remembrance of Me.” 25In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. 27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28Each one must examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

If Jesus was not present in communion, it would not be a sin to consume the body and blood unworthily!

Right, "do this in memory of me". The Passover. They were Jews and they were celebrating Passover.
Jesus was showing them that everything about the Passover meal was a picture of him.

There was no catholic wafer or pagan monstrance involved.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,265
5,624
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In agreement with CH Spurgeon...
C.h. spurgeon on baptist perpetuity

"We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at thereformation, we were reformers before Luther or Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the very days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel underground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor I believe any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with the government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men". (From The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol.VII, Page 225).
"History has hitherto been written by our enemies, who never would have kept a single fact about us upon the record if they could have helped it, and yet it leaks out every now and then that certain poor people called Anabaptists were brought up for condemnation. From the days of Henry II to those of Elizabeth we hear of certain unhappy heretics who were hated of all men for the truth's sake which was in them. We read of poor men and women, with their garments cut short, turned out into the fields to perish in the cold, and anon of others who were burnt at Newington for the crime of Anabaptism. Long before your Protestants were known of, these horrible Anabaptists, as they were unjustly called, were protesting for the 'one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.' No sooner did the visible church begin to depart from the gospel than these men arose to keep fast by the good old way. The priests and monks wished for peace and slumber, but there was always a Baptist or a Lollard tickling men's ears with holy Scriptures, and calling their attention to the errors of the times. They were a poor persecuted tribe. The halter was thought to be too good for them. At times ill-written history would have us think that they died out, so well had the wolf done his work on the sheep. Yet here we are, blessed and multiplied; and Newington sees other scenes from Sabbath to Sabbath.
As I think of your numbers and efforts, I can only say in wonder - what a growth! As I think of the multitudes of our brethren in America, I may well say, What hath God wrought! Our history forbids discouragement." (From the Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 1881, Vol. 27, page 249.)
I was unaware of this. Never read it before, thank you for posting.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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First of all, you have NOT pointed out any SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE of MULTIPLE "Christian denominations" in existence before 1500 AD, and secondly, the Eastern Orthodox Church was under the authority of the Pope since it's beginning ... so it was STILL a branch of the Catholic Church!
The idea of a Historical church knowing we walk by faith the unseen, knowing the kingdom of God which is not of this world and therefore it does not come by observation. It is not a biblical form of interpretation but that of a private interpretation of the kind of fathers,(two kinds) Christ called a brood of vipers to indicate false prophets.

No such thing as a historical church.We walk by faith the unseen.

We therefore continue to walk by faith (the unseen).All saints die not receiving the promise. All will receive the promise our new incorruptible body in the twinkling of the eye, simultaneously.

There are no saints reining on earth as those who have left this realm under the sun. One mediator between God and man (God not seen)

The two sects or denominations that you offered above are like that of the Pharisees with Sadducees .

Matthew 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would “shew them a sign” from heaven.

They would not believe exercise or work out faith unless they did see a sign .

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

They were two sects or denominations that put aside their differences so they could continue to walk by sight as the things of natural man, as a law of the fathers, a false zeal for knowing God. .

We know they were walking by sight after the natural course of this world because those kind of fathers as high priest like the Pope, gave then letters of authorization to kill the perceived completion ...as in out of sight out of mind , just as in the fifteenth century reformation... when all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) restored the biblical order.

Below...The criterion of the Pharisees also with the Sadducees denominations duplicated in the fifteenth century .

I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.And I persecuted this way unto “the death”, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. Act 22:3


No such thing as no denomination or sect.

The first sect on this side of the cross mentioned in the scriptures was called the Nazarene or the Way .Paul was a new convert to the Nazarene sect/denomination as one of the leaders. They mocked him by calling him a ring leader .And they judged him according to the law of the fathers (out of sight out of mind)

For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.Act 24:5

The law of the fathers not the law of our one father in heaven.
They tried to prove all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) was heresy but only shot themselves in their own foot.

Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which “they call heresy”, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Act 24:14

And not worshiping the fathers as God in the likeness of men as pagan form of worship.

Paul is shown using the fathers in a God honoring way... worshiping our father in heaven not seen, unlike those who walk by sight worshiping the fathers seen called apostolic succession . Therefore having the faith that comes alone from hearing our father I respect to men called fathers on earth.Not walking by faith the unseen will of our one Father of all spirits .

It is one of the “think not” doctrines that protects the authority of all things written in the law and the prophets. (sola scriptura)

The Catholics followed the same order of walking by sight usurping the authority of our father in heaven and giving it to men seen called fathers.

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

The church is made up of many lively stones to represent the spiritual unseen house of God

The Catholic version paraphrased

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Peter to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
 
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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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From what I have seen up to now on this forum, those who "believe" are saints ... which, or course includes DEMONS who also believe ... and tremble at the thought of their futures!

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation.

In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Saving belief is more than believing "mental assent" that "there is one God" or simply intellectually acknowledging the existence and historical facts about Jesus Christ. Saving belief trusts exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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I'm asking you honest questions. If you don't have answers that's OK, but no need to try to get in my head as to what I think. If you want to know then ask me. This conversation has probably run its course and I thank you for your time and thoughts during our discussion. Even though we may not agree I got a lot out if it and I hope you did too.

Peace.

-Ernie-
I have no interest in catholic propaganda about how they created the bible.

I am interested in the gospel message in the bible. I am interested in soteriology in the bible.

Catholic can be saved but they must filter out church doctrine and receive bible doctrine to do so.

Trans substantiation is not a bible doctrine. Grace is not incremental but is essential for salvation.

Catholics are always hoping they are saved but never knowing they are saved. Always hoping to do enough and never having confidence that Jesus has done it all.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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Yes, we ALL make mistakes, but the situation is very different when sin is INTENTIONAL, as opposed to UNINTENTIONAL!


Martin Luther - Wikiquote
en.wikiquote.org/wiki/martin_luther
If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are ...
The world is full of folks who profess to be Christians. Those who are Christians are known not by what they profess but what they possess.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God does not lead us into temptation but delivers us from evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger