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Dec 14, 2017
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In agreement with CH Spurgeon...
C.h. spurgeon on baptist perpetuity

"We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at thereformation, we were reformers before Luther or Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the very days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel underground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor I believe any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with the government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men". (From The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol.VII, Page 225).
"History has hitherto been written by our enemies, who never would have kept a single fact about us upon the record if they could have helped it, and yet it leaks out every now and then that certain poor people called Anabaptists were brought up for condemnation. From the days of Henry II to those of Elizabeth we hear of certain unhappy heretics who were hated of all men for the truth's sake which was in them. We read of poor men and women, with their garments cut short, turned out into the fields to perish in the cold, and anon of others who were burnt at Newington for the crime of Anabaptism. Long before your Protestants were known of, these horrible Anabaptists, as they were unjustly called, were protesting for the 'one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.' No sooner did the visible church begin to depart from the gospel than these men arose to keep fast by the good old way. The priests and monks wished for peace and slumber, but there was always a Baptist or a Lollard tickling men's ears with holy Scriptures, and calling their attention to the errors of the times. They were a poor persecuted tribe. The halter was thought to be too good for them. At times ill-written history would have us think that they died out, so well had the wolf done his work on the sheep. Yet here we are, blessed and multiplied; and Newington sees other scenes from Sabbath to Sabbath.
As I think of your numbers and efforts, I can only say in wonder - what a growth! As I think of the multitudes of our brethren in America, I may well say, What hath God wrought! Our history forbids discouragement." (From the Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 1881, Vol. 27, page 249.)

You REALLY need to check your sources!


https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/374-baptist-church-an-historical-perspective-the

The Baptist Church: An Historical Perspective

BY WAYNE JACKSON
I grew up among kindly people of the Baptist affiliation. My father’s family was of this persuasion. A more gracious, benevolent group of folks could scarcely have been found. It was heartbreaking, therefore, to eventually discover that the church of my ancestry was unknown to the New Testament.
An Historical Overview

The Baptist movement was started with the best of motives by a sincere people who were discontented with the religious corruptions of their day. But their understanding of the nature of genuine Christianity was lacking considerably. Hence, without biblical authority, they founded a new denomination that merely cluttered the landscape of prevailing religious confusion.
It must be noted that the man “sent from God, whose name was John” (John 1:6), who was called “the Baptist” (Mt. 3:1) — because he administered the rite of immersion, bore no relationship to the modern movement that has adopted that designation. For one thing, John immersed “for the forgiveness of sins” (Mk. 1:4), while the Baptist denomination finds this concept abhorrent.
We must point out, at the commencement of this discussion, that there are those, identified with the Baptist movement, who allege that this denomination is the true New Testament church, and that its genealogical record can be traced back to the days of Christ himself.
A.B. Barret, founder of Abilene Christian College, once authored a book titled, The Shattered Chain(Henderson, TN: 1942-43). In this volume the author demolished the notion, advocated by Ben M. Bogard and others, that Baptist history can be plotted back to the first century. All such efforts have been failures, and today, most Baptist historians have surrendered this position altogether, acknowledging that the movement had its formal genesis many centuries this side of the establishment of primitive Christianity. It would be a remarkable historical oddity indeed if the Baptist Church existed in the days of the apostles, and yet was never alluded to, even remotely, in the New Testament record.
Baptist churches were born out of the English Reformation movement of the early 1600’s. Around 1606, certain Puritan Separatists in Great Britain had withdrawn from the Church of England, protesting the civil control of that body. Some within the movement also objected to various theological ideas of the Puritan system. Hence, in about 1608 several left the Separatists and formed a new coalition. One of the leaders of this movement was John Smyth (c. 1554-1612), who went to Holland to avoid persecution.
As Smyth studied the New Testament, he became convinced that the practice of infant baptism was erroneous. He contended that baptism should be administered only to those who professed repentance of their sins. Accordingly, Smyth decided to “baptize” himself, though he still had no clear concept as to the form of baptism, because he “baptized” himself by pouring water upon his own head. He then similarly applied water to the heads of his companions (some forty in number) and a new religious entity was initiated — the Baptist Church, with John Smyth acknowledged as its “Pastor.”
A.H. Newman, a Baptist historian, comments: “Immersion seems not to have been practiced” (A.H. Newman, A Manual of Church History, Philadelphia: The American Baptist Publication Society, 1931, II, p. 280). Smyth died in 1612, and a remnant of the group moved back to England.
While some attempt to find a shadowy image of the Baptist Church earlier in Christian history, most writers concede that:

“The first regularly organized [Baptist] church among them, known as such in England, dates from 1607...” (Edward T. Hiscox, The Standard Manual for Baptist Churches, Philadelphia, The American Baptist Publication Society, 1890, p. 168).


Some of the “links” in the “chain” which our Baptist friends attempt to trace back to the time of John were so radically different in theology from today’s Baptists that it is amazing that a connection would ever be asserted. Hiscox mentions such sects as the Montanists, the Novatioans, and the Donatists. For a discussion of the doctrinal positions of these groups, see Newman (Vol. I, pp. 202-10).

And so, at about this time (1607-8), a new sectarian body made its entrance into the world. Strange indeed is the fact that Smyth’s church is considered to be “Baptist,” yet not a soul among them had been immersed.

One of Smyth’s co-laborers was Thomas Helwys (c. 1550-1616). These two men entertained differing views about fellowship with the Mennonites, and so Helwys led off a small group, which resulted in a separate sect. Both Smyth and Helwys held the view that in his atonement for sin, Christ died for all. The movement that grew from this beginning became known as the “General Baptists.”

Another group of Baptists arose in 1616. It was established by Henry Jacob (1563-1642) in London. This group acknowledged some association with the Church of England at first, though eventually a severance was effected.
In about 1638, a separate group was formed by John Spilsbury; they were known as “Particular Baptists,” adhering to the strict Calvinistic view that Jesus died only for the “elect,” i.e., those chosen to be saved by God before the foundation of the world. By 1644, this group had committed itself to baptism by immersion. But as one scholar notes,

“Most of [these Baptists] were ecumenical in spirit . . . . Some even practiced open membership, not requiring Christians from non-Baptist churches to be rebaptized”(Jerald C. Brauer, Ed., The Westminster Dictionary of Church History, Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1971, p. 85).


The Baptist cause originated in America in 1639 when Roger Williams established a church in Providence, Rhode Island. Eventually, though, Williams left the movement, and “for the rest of his life was unconnected with any religious body” (H.C. Vedder, A Short History of the Baptists, Philadelphia: American Baptist Publication Socitey, 1907, p. 292).
While it seems apparent that these early reformers were quite sincere, and driven by noble motives, it is equally clear that their concepts about some of the most fundamental matters of New Testament teaching (e.g., obedience to the gospel as a process for becoming a genuine Christian) was lacking considerably. They succeeded, therefore, in doing no more than adorning the early religious terrain with a new denominational body that did not conform to New Testament standards.
Today, the Baptists (with some 100 or so different branches wearing this name, according to a Baptist web site – The Homepage for all Baptists | Baptist.org Blog | Baptist Articles | Baptist News | Theology | Missions | Bible Studies | Christian Wallpapers), constitute the largest Protestant body in America. There is considerable diversity of doctrine among these people — from the liberal American Baptists, and the more conservative Southern Baptists, to the ultra-conservative, exclusive Primitive Baptists. Most Baptists, however, are joined in sentiment by strong Calvinistic tendencies.

Doctrinal Problems


While many of our Baptist neighbors are to be applauded for their sense of moral responsibility (some have voiced admirable opposition to abortion, pornography, etc.), the movement is riddled with doctrinal error. A few significant items are worthy of mention.
(1) Baptist philosophy partakes of the spirit of partyism, such as that condemned at Corinth (1 Cor. 1:10ff). They prefer the appellation “Baptist” to “Christian” (Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16), commonly claiming that the divinely bestowed name was invented by the enemies of the ancient faith.
(2) Baptist churches are unscripturally organized, generally having a “pastor” (cf. Acts 14:23) and a board of deacons. Though congregations claim independence, certain works and policies, in some cases, are controlled by “conventions” (e.g., the Southern Baptist Convention). In individual congregations, a majority vote of the members makes congregational decisions (J.M. Pendleton, Baptist Church Manual, Philadelphia: Judson Press, 1867, pp. 101ff). The biblical concept of elders is alien to this system.
(3) The Baptist movement, as a general rule, engages in forms of worship that do not fit the New Testament pattern. The use of instrumental music in worship is the prevailing practice (an addition to apostolic authorization — Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16), and the Lord’s day communion, observed weekly in the first century (cf. Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2, NASB), is relegated to random times of congregational determination.
It is a matter of some amazement that one may not partake of the Lord’s supper in most Baptist churches, unless he has been immersed in water, yet the case is vociferously argued that baptism is not requisite for entering heaven!
(4) The Baptist theory of the plan of salvation is woefully skewed. It is asserted that salvation is “solely through faith.” Yet, because of man’s inherited “total depravity,” he cannot believe, unless supernaturally empowered by the Spirit of God.
Baptist theologians contend that faith is preceded by repentance, which is a logical impossibility, if one is employing “faith” with reference to the same object. [NOTE: In Mark 1:15, Jesus admonished the Jews: “repent ye, and believe in the gospel.” These Hebrews already had faith in God, which would serve as the motivation for their repentance (cf. Rom. 2:14; 2 Cor. 7:10). They then were to embrace the gospel system, which would involve belief in Christ.]
Baptism, as a condition of salvation, is repudiated vehemently (contra Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16), yet the rite is required for Baptist affiliation. Members actually are received into a church by a “vote” of the membership, though it is conceded that this is “different” from the practice of the apostolic church (Hiscox, p. 22).
(5) Many Baptists adhere to the dogma of the impossibility of apostasy, i.e., the regenerated person can never so sin as to be lost, though he may become corrupt enough to be excluded from a church’s fellowship (Hiscox, p. 30). Elsewhere we have dealt with this doctrine in some detail (see our booklet, Eternal Security — Fact or Fiction?.
 
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Right, "do this in memory of me". The Passover. They were Jews and they were celebrating Passover.
Jesus was showing them that everything about the Passover meal was a picture of him.

There was no catholic wafer or pagan monstrance involved.


Really? What Jews celebrated Passover ... on the FIRST DAY of the week, which was Sunday? Was Sunday the Passover?

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Dec 14, 2017
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The idea of a Historical church knowing we walk by faith the unseen, knowing the kingdom of God which is not of this world and therefore it does not come by observation.

What CHURCH was Jesus referring to in the following verse, and WHAT YEAR was Jesus talking about? Perhaps 1881?


Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.


Why Were 14 Books Removed from the Bible in 1881? | Rocking God's House
 
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notuptome

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The church Jesus built and is building on Himself.

Do the 14 books of the apocrypha make a meritorious contribution to the bible? Politics removed them but I probably would have voted to make them separate from the bible. You know they also added several chapters to the book of Esther. Good old Gerome.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Dec 14, 2017
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The church Jesus built and is building on Himself.

Do the 14 books of the apocrypha make a meritorious contribution to the bible? Politics removed them but I probably would have voted to make them separate from the bible. You know they also added several chapters to the book of Esther. Good old Gerome.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

They added several chapters to the book of Esther? Who is the multiple entity you have called "they" above? As for the DEUTEROCANONICAL books, when the ORIGINAL 1611 King James Version (KJV) bible was printed, there were NUMEROUS cross-references in it, from the DEUTEROCANONICAL books to the so-called "inspired" books of the bible!

Here is a link that will clarify (that is, DISPROVE) some of the myths that have been spread about Catholic bibles!

https://www.catholic.com/qa/didnt-the-catholic-church-add-to-the-bible
 
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Dec 26, 2017
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I said you had the Eucharist attached to Jesus. Which you did. That was your sentence. "Jesus as present in the Eucharist"

The idol worship I was referring to is the Mary/statue obsession the Catholic Church has. Which you seem to be denying even exits despite overwhelming evidence.

Stop calling the words of The Bible "my interpretation" as if I am making it up.
As I stated in a previous post, icons of Jesus, Mary, and the Saints are proper per the council of Constantinople in 869 A.D. which states:

"If anyone then does not venerate the icon of Christ, the saviour, let him not see his face when he comes in his father’s glory to be glorified and to glorify his saints’, but let him be cut off from his communion and splendour; similarly the image of Mary, his immaculate mother and mother of God, we also paint the icons of the holy angels just as divine scripture depicts them in words; we also honour and venerate those of the highly renowned apostles, prophets, martyrs and holy men as well as those of all the saints. Let those who are not so disposed be anathema from the Father, the Son and the holy Spirit."

You don't agree with this decree by the Church because it doesn't fit into your interpretation of the Bible. You believe your interpretation is the truth because the Holy Spirit tells you so. Given the much varied "truths" people espouse then either the Holy Spirit isn't very good at communicating truth (we know that is not the case!) or people confuse what they believe to be the Holy Spirit's voice for their own opinions and biases. What other options could there be for the multitude of "truths" people argue for?

-Ernie-
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
The church Jesus built and is building on Himself.

Do the 14 books of the apocrypha make a meritorious contribution to the bible? Politics removed them but I probably would have voted to make them separate from the bible. You know they also added several chapters to the book of Esther. Good old Gerome.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
if they made one person a believer that would be good enough for me.
 
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https://www.catholic.com/qa/didnt-the-catholic-church-add-to-the-bible


Why are Protestant and Catholic Bibles different? | Christian History


List of books of the King James Version - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/list_of_books_of_the_king_jame...
These are the books of the King James Version of the Bible along with the names and numbers given them in the Douay Rheims Bible and Latin Vulgate. This list is a complement to the list in Books of the Latin Vulgate. It is an aid to finding cross references between two longstanding standards of Biblical literature.

The Apocrypha Books of the King James Bible - Kindle edition ...
www.amazon.com/apocrypha-books-king-james-bible-eboo...
Before the 1880's every English Protestant Bible printed had 80 books, not 66! The inter-testamental books written hundreds of years before Christ called “The Apocrypha” were part of virtually every printing of the Tyndale-Matthews Bible, the Great Bible, the Bishops Bible, the Protestant Geneva Bible, and the King James ...

The King James Bible of 1611 was printed with 80 books, ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=57z1dxyus3g
Apr 11, 2016 ... John 8:32 (KJV) 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Why Did The Vatican Remove 14 Books From The Bible in 1684?
anonhq.com/vatican-remove-14-books-bible-1684/
Aug 30, 2016 ... In the year 1611 the Bible was translated from Latin into English. Back then the Bible contained a total of 80 books and the last 14 books, which today have been excluded, made up the end of the Old Testament and were as follows: 1 Esdras; 2 Esdras; Tobit; Judith; The rest of Esther; The Wisdom of ...
Is it possible we're saying the same thing, but some books have been consolidated, named something else, etc.? Again, here's the list of books in the Catholic Bible, which corresponds to the Latin Vulgate.

Books of the Bible - Bible - Catholic Online
 
Dec 14, 2017
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They added several chapters to the book of Esther? Who is the multiple entity you have called "they" above? As for the DEUTEROCANONICAL books, when the ORIGINAL 1611 King James Version (KJV) bible was printed, there were NUMEROUS cross-references in it, from the DEUTEROCANONICAL books to the so-called "inspired" books of the bible!

Here is a link that will clarify (that is, DISPROVE) some of the myths that have been spread about Catholic bibles!


https://www.catholic.com/qa/didnt-the-catholic-church-add-to-the-bible

Ask yourselves this question ... PLEASE! Why were the DEUTEROCANONICAL books allowed to REMAIN in KJV bibles until about 1881, IF they "DID NOT BELONG" in the bible? How many people were BORN, LIVED AND DIED, DECEIVED by that?

Why Were 14 Books Removed from the Bible in 1881? | Rocking God's House
 
Dec 26, 2017
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the church removed books for political reasons. divine inspiration had nothing to do with it.
What church are you talking about and what books did that church remove? Assuming you are talking about the Catholic Church you are very sadly misinformed. The Church has read from a 73 book Bible since 400 A.D. (Google Latin Vulgate) and not until the Reformation did a 66 book bible surface. The 7 books were removed so that this new bible would align with their new heretical form of Christianity. I'm sorry, but someone has fed you lies.

-Ernie-
 
Dec 14, 2017
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Is it possible we're saying the same thing, but some books have been consolidated, named something else, etc.? Again, here's the list of books in the Catholic Bible, which corresponds to the Latin Vulgate.

Books of the Bible - Bible - Catholic Online

I would have to concede that your proposal as to what happened is very likely. There were also some books which were split in to two books ... such as 1 Samuel and 2 Samuel.
 
Dec 26, 2017
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We don't have the word "catholc/ism" in the Bible but there's a christian saved in the Bible. The disciples in Antioch were named first.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
And we don't have Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc. mentioned specifically in the Bible either so are they not Christian? We also don't have the word Trinity either so do you deny that? The use of the word catholic in the early Church simply meant universal. It wasn't until a heretical form of Christianity starting to gain popularity that the Church started formally using the term Catholic Church in church council documents.

-Ernie-
 
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What church are you talking about and what books did that church remove? Assuming you are talking about the Catholic Church you are very sadly misinformed. The Church has read from a 73 book Bible since 400 A.D. (Google Latin Vulgate) and not until the Reformation did a 66 book bible surface. The 7 books were removed so that this new bible would align with their new heretical form of Christianity. I'm sorry, but someone has fed you lies.

-Ernie-

Actually, the 1611 King James Version had EIGHTY BOOKS (80 instead of 66 books)!

https://www.alltheinternet.com/?q=80+books+of+the+bible&ref=12282017180620&p=
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
What church are you talking about and what books did that church remove? Assuming you are talking about the Catholic Church you are very sadly misinformed. The Church has read from a 73 book Bible since 400 A.D. (Google Latin Vulgate) and not until the Reformation did a 66 book bible surface. The 7 books were removed so that this new bible would align with their new heretical form of Christianity. I'm sorry, but someone has fed you lies.

-Ernie-
which church removed the shepherd of hermas? it was pre Catholic, i always refer to this as the roman church. the apocrypha books would be removed much later by non Catholics.
 
Dec 14, 2017
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And we don't have Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc. mentioned specifically in the Bible either so are they not Christian? We also don't have the word Trinity either so do you deny that? The use of the word catholic in the early Church simply meant universal. It wasn't until a heretical form of Christianity starting to gain popularity that the Church started formally using the term Catholic Church in church council documents.

-Ernie-

It is VERY TELLING, that Jesus did NOT SAY, "... upon this rock I will build my churchES ...!" How many denominations do we have on earth now?

https://www.alltheinternet.com/?q=How+many+Christian+denominations+exist?&ref=12292017100429&p=
 
Dec 26, 2017
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During Jesus time, we don't have Roman Catholic Church, we have a Roman Empire...
Thank you, finally someone that speaks the truth! I agree with you as there was simply a Christian Church at that time. A single universal Christian Church where if you were a Christian then you belonged and adhered to what this Church believed. That's been my underlying point in this whole thread and finally someone gets it.

My specific point has been that in order to prove that your beliefs today are the actual truth then they must align with the beliefs of this single Christian Church for if there is just 1 Church and Jesus said He would protect it then they must teach truth. Many on this thread have been talking about their beliefs, which would have had them labeled a heretic in the Christian Church, yet they still blindly believe they have the truth as if the truth wasn't known until the Holy Spirit told them. It's all about their interpretation rather then true truth. Madness!

Thanks.

-Ernie-