James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

[heartofdavid]

Hello David,
I fail to see where the posts condemns anyone.

It doesn't claim James preached saved by works.

It does point out the James is writing to Jews.

It makes no mention of Peter. Although Peter does speak in the verses posted.

I don't understand your point about Paul declaring the power of works & how that applies to this post. As the post makes no such claim or even implies such a thing.

Anti cannonites? This reference lost me too.

Ascribing Paul to a by works Mantle? Again, The post makes no such claim or even implies that.

The posts points out, that in no place does James speak of or to the Body of Christ. That in no place does James speak about the power of the resurrection. Feel free to post the verses in the book of James that do.

The key point in the post is what happen at the Councel of Jerusalem 7-14 years after James is written.

Under Mosaic law all males had to be circumcised & keep the law of Moses. If you read the beginng verses is Acts 15 you see a heated debate over these issues. The final judgment thay made was gentiles don't have to be circumcised or keep the law of Moses.

The posts points out, that in no place does James speak of or to the Body of Christ. That in no place does James speak about the power of the resurrection. Feel free to post the verses in the book of James that do.

James 5;7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Uhem,the jews were killing followers of jesus.
The Jews rejected Jesus.
We see in the verse above ,that James is telling CHRISTIANS to be patient for the imminent return of Jesus.

James 5;14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

How can anyone read that and not know that refers to a church,a body of elders and a body of believers?????


James 5; 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Lets see,a sinner converted would be born again.
But I mean really? you think that departing from the truth is a jewish thing? You think a letter to non christians would assume they had a church,elders,knowledge of departing from the truth,and james would guide and encorage them in their known christian walk?????

Are you guys aware that Jews made up the church before the gentiles???
and yet we have some teachers thinking since Jews were in a letter they could not be born again believers?????

 

[Nehemiah6]

Are you guys aware that Jews made up the church before the gentiles???
and yet we have some teachers thinking since Jews were in a letter they could not be born again believers?????

It is simply amazing that Christians can even imagine that any of the epistles are being written to unbelievers! Just because Hebrew Christians were the primary audience does not mean that those epistles are not for all Christians. Another foolish notion is that the first epistle of John was written to heretical Gnostics rather than genuine children of God.

 

[heartofdavid]

Actually, we are told the audience in James 1:1, James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

When Scripture speaks of the twelve tribes, it is always, always, always a reference to the nation of Israel as a whole and never, never, never a called out group from that nation.Study Scripture and that term. To make it mean Christians would be to contradict every other throughout Scripture. I'm not willing to do that.

Thats like writing a letter to a church in ethiopia,addressed "to the ethiopians" and not only assuming it COULD NOT BE CHRISTIAN ethiopians,but telling me "Never ever,have i seen a letter to a church addressed "to the ethiopians"

No sir,that dog won't hunt.
Somebody here knows why these anti cannonites want James disenfranchised.

There has to be a motive. All that energy into a huge rabbit trail,leads to somewhere. Somewhere that they don't like what James is saying.

 

[heartofdavid]

And what orthodox Jews have a body of elders that lays hands on the sick in Jesus name,in the synagogue?

^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

 

[MatthewG]

James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.



Faith by itself, if it does not have love (works), is dead.

 

[heartofdavid]

I think we need to eject titus also.

Paul must be a little off. Must not be a good book for the church. No mention of a resurrection,and loaded with this works stuff.

Paul must have gotten all off like James in a works maze into error.

To top it off,"Titus"?,....I mean that sounds greek or something. Probably just wrote it to some lost greek tribe. LOL

 

[FlyingDove]

The misquoted & misunderstood Book of James

The Book of James is written in the late 30's - earlry 40's to the 12 tribes (Jews only) who had been scattered, see James 1:1

James is writting to the 12 tribes of Israel. Still under the Law. Jews steeped in Old Testament doctrines. The Temple is in full operation, and nobody has ever been told to stop Temple worship, or to stop the sacrifices.

There is nothing in the Book of James that speak's of the Body of Christ/Church. Nothing of the power of the Resurrection, found in Paul’s writings.

The book of James is written 7-14 years BEFORE the Counsel at Jerusalem. Counsel at Jerusalem took place in 51 AD & is a key transitional inflection point. From righteousness thru Law keeping to righteousness thru Faith. See Acts 15:24 below

James the 1/2 brother of Jesus, was head of the Jerusalem assembly & the moderator for the Counsel at Jerusalem (Acts 15)

Acts 15:
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up & said unto them, Men & brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

13 And after they had held their peace, ""James"" answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Read vs 13-19 & see James message change here 7-14 yrs after he wrote the book of James

22 Then pleased it "the apostles & elders" with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul & Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas & Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; "The apostles, elders & (JEWISH) brethren" send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria & Cilicia:

24 We have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised & keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment.
(NOTE: All the Apostle's agree & send letters to ALL the Churches: Gentiles don't need to be circumcised or keep the law of Moses)

James, Peter & John, Barnabas & Paul shake on the Counsel at Jerusalem deal here too:

Gal 2:9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me they gave to me & Barnabas the right hands of fellowship that we should go unto the Gentiles, and they unto the Jews.

Paul's message emphasizes the death (sins wage paid), burial & resurrection (God's receipt, payment received) as of """first importance""" in 1 Corinthians chapter 15:104, the great resurrection chapter.

REREAD Acts 15:24 All the Apostles agree & send letters to centile Churches (vs 13 above) stating: Gentiles DON'T need to be circumcised or keep the law of Moses
Your case falls on its face big time.
Your entire deal is " condemnation before investigation."

Most of your post is boggus.

1 James is not preaching saved by works.

2. James is writing to Jewish believers.

3. Peter was rebuked several times,so i guess 1 peter is also in question

4. Paul declared 10. Or. 20 times the power of works.

5. Do any anti cannonites roast Paul over his many references to works?

Should we also recklessly ascribe to Paul a saved by works mantle?

The ENTIRE motive of disenfranchising James appears to be defunk and debunked

Hi David,
I stand behind my above post. I respectfully disagree with everything you posted above. James was written to Jews. When James is written in order for a gentile to be included. He had to be circumcised, under go a full Mikvah, bring a sacrifice to the Temple & agree to live under Mosaic law.

Salvation is 1st to the Jew then to the gentile Rom 1:16 & 2:9. The Jew receive the H/S at Pentecost. It's 7 yrs later before Peter opens the door to gentiles.

Its 14 years later at the counsel at Jerusalem where salvation without law requirements begins. That was the main point of my post.

I'm going to leave this conversation at that. Best wishes & may God multiply his grace to You & yours. FD

 

[Nehemiah6]

James was written to Jews.

There's a big difference between "James was written to Jews" and "James was written to saved Hebrew Christians". We should not be misleading people unnecessarily. And when errors are pointed out, that should be accepted and acted upon.

 

[John146]

All the epistles in the NT are written to Christians, including that of James. In his case it is written to Hebrew Christians, just as the epistle to the Hebrews is written to Hebrew Christians. That does not mean that these epistles DO NOT have universal application to all Christians (Jews or Gentiles). Please note the following statements, keeping in mind that all the apostles addressed Christians as their brethren or their beloved brethren:

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ...

My brethren...

Do not err, my beloved brethren...

My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons... [NOTE: ONLY CHRISTIANS HAVE THE FAITH OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST]

Hearken, my beloved brethren...

My brethren, be not many masters...

Speak not evil one of another, brethren...

Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord...

Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord...

But above all things, my brethren, swear not...

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church... [NOTE: ONLY CHRISTIANS ARE IN CHURCHES WITH ELDERS]

Please note the following from Paul to the nation of Israel and not Christians:

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

James is a Jew and he is writing to his Jewish brethren according to the flesh, hence, the twelve tribes. I challenge you to find another usage of the "twelve tribes" where that term is being used to Christian Jews.

The usage of "twelve tribes" is not a Christian term in Scripture. It always, always, always is a reference to the whole nation of Israel. The book of James is to the whole nation of Israel who are scattered abroad. The twelve tribes will be scattered abroad during the tribulation and the book of James will be doctrine for the Jew to live by.

And the use of church is also used in the OT for Israel. I'll finish the verse you quoted:

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Sorry, not Church doctrine. In this case, every time elders pray over the sick, they will be healed...every time, shall save the sick. Honestly, does that happen today? And not only that, the elder's prayers will forgive sins for the sick. Nope.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I challenge you to find another usage of the "twelve tribes" where that term is being used to Christian Jews.

There is more than just that term "twelve tribes" used for Hebrew Christians in the Bible. Please note:

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. [BELOW WE HAVE 12 TRIBES BUT ALL REDEEMED FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST]

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses weresealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin weresealed twelve thousand...

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. (Rev 7:4-8; 14:1-4).

The more pertinent question is "Are there any epistles addressed to unbelieving Jews?" and if the answer is negative it should be clear that James -- a Hebrew Christian -- was simply addressing Hebrew CHRISTIANS. The teachings are for all Christians.

 

[John146]

The more pertinent question is "Are there any epistles addressed to unbelieving Jews?" and if the answer is negative it should be clear that James -- a Hebrew Christian -- was simply addressing Hebrew CHRISTIANS. The teachings are for all Christians.

The example you gave are called out members of the twelve tribes not the twelve tribes. And by the way, these called out members are in the tribulation.

Yes, the book of James is a Jewish book written by a Jew to the nation of Israel as a whole. Obviously there are those in James' audience who had not received God's word and their souls were not saved.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

 

[FlyingDove]

There's a big difference between "James was written to Jews" and "James was written to saved Hebrew Christians". We should not be misleading people unnecessarily. And when errors are pointed out, that should be accepted and acted upon.

Good grief:

NT makes the reference to Jews 175 times, Jew 22 times = 197 times

NT makes the reference to Hebrews 4 times, Hebrew 11 times = 16 times

NT makes the reference to Israelites 2 times

I choose Jews, The text in James that was the topic and say's 12 tribes

God changed Jacobs name to Israel (Genesis 35:10). The 12 Tribes are Jacobs sons. Each receiving a portion of Land in Israel. Except Levi. Joseph got a double portion Ephraim and Manasseh

So, If we must split these kinds of hairs. It's the 12 Tribes of Israel. BTW the word Israel is mentioned 2576 time in the Bible.

 

[FlyingDove]

There's a big difference between "James was written to Jews" and "James was written to saved Hebrew Christians". We should not be misleading people unnecessarily. And when errors are pointed out, that should be accepted and acted upon.

Good grief:

NT makes the reference to Jews 175 times, Jew 22 times = 197 times

NT makes the reference to Hebrews 4 times, Hebrew 11 times = 16 times

NT makes the reference to Israelites 2 times

I choose Jews, The text in James that was the topic and say's 12 tribes

God changed Jacobs name to Israel (Genesis 35:10). The 12 Tribes are Jacobs sons. Each receiving a portion of Land in Israel. Except Levi. Joseph got a double portion Ephraim and Manasseh

So, If we must split these kinds of hairs. It's the 12 Tribes of Israel. BTW the word Israel is mentioned 2576 time in the Bible.

 

[Jackson123]

We save by faith not by work

the fruit of faith is salvation and work is by product of faith

protestant

faith > produce salvation + work

catholic

work> Produce salvation

 

[Nehemiah6]

So, If we must split these kinds of hairs. It's the 12 Tribes of Israel. BTW the word Israel is mentioned 2576 time in the Bible.

You seem to have missed the point. Was the epistle of James written to Hebrew Christians or to unsaved Jews? No epistle was ever written to the unsaved. And John146 claims that it was written to the nation of Israel! But the nation of Israel had already rejected Christ 30-40 years before it was written, so why would they receive Christian teachings? How absurd do we want to get?

 

[trofimus]

"For even if we sin, we are yours, knowing your might.
But knowing we are considered yours, we will not sin;

for to know you is perfect righteousness
and to recognize your might is the root of immortality."

Wisdom of Salomon, 15:2-3

 

[FlyingDove]

You seem to have missed the point. Was the epistle of James written to Hebrew Christians or to unsaved Jews? No epistle was ever written to the unsaved. And John146 claims that it was written to the nation of Israel! But the nation of Israel had already rejected Christ 30-40 years before it was written, so why would they receive Christian teachings? How absurd do we want to get?

30 to 40 years before, what a joke! Nehemiah6, I've placed you on ignore, please do the same.

 

[JaumeJ]

All who believe are perfectly aware that the works we are allowed after we believe come by the Holy Spirit, for no flesh
is able to do our Father any favors.

We are graced not only with mercy but with power, that is, God's power working through us.

Without these works by the grace of our Father, faith is no faith at all.

Paul knew this just as well as did James and all of Yeshua,s followers.

I pity anyone who does not understand this truth.......pray on it, and learn truth. You may even consult Jesus Christ on
the subject, since He covers it well.My favorite teaching from Him on this is the parable of the talents of gold.

God bless all who are in Jesus Christ, amen.

 

[heartofdavid]

Please note the following from Paul to the nation of Israel and not Christians:

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

James is a Jew and he is writing to his Jewish brethren according to the flesh, hence, the twelve tribes. I challenge you to find another usage of the "twelve tribes" where that term is being used to Christian Jews.

The usage of "twelve tribes" is not a Christian term in Scripture. It always, always, always is a reference to the whole nation of Israel. The book of James is to the whole nation of Israel who are scattered abroad. The twelve tribes will be scattered abroad during the tribulation and the book of James will be doctrine for the Jew to live by.

And the use of church is also used in the OT for Israel. I'll finish the verse you quoted:

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Sorry, not Church doctrine. In this case, every time elders pray over the sick, they will be healed...every time, shall save the sick. Honestly, does that happen today? And not only that, the elder's prayers will forgive sins for the sick. Nope.

Apparently that last chapter telling us James is addressing believers,is so bothersome to you,you need the entire letter disenfranchised.

This is getting into what is behind not accepting James as applicable to our walk and edification.

What a shame

 

[heartofdavid]

Good grief:

NT makes the reference to Jews 175 times, Jew 22 times = 197 times

NT makes the reference to Hebrews 4 times, Hebrew 11 times = 16 times

NT makes the reference to Israelites 2 times

I choose Jews, The text in James that was the topic and say's 12 tribes

God changed Jacobs name to Israel (Genesis 35:10). The 12 Tribes are Jacobs sons. Each receiving a portion of Land in Israel. Except Levi. Joseph got a double portion Ephraim and Manasseh

So, If we must split these kinds of hairs. It's the 12 Tribes of Israel. BTW the word Israel is mentioned 2576 time in the Bible.

All 66 books are from heaven,to his assembly.

So,even if James says " to the 12 ethiopians" or Italian resturants,it no more diminishes the contents than the gospel that is designated " to thee most excellent Theopolous ".

It is for me,my walk,and all of ch 5 is for ministry and edification.

Find a rabbi and run that elder of the church deal by him. Surely the 12 tribes must have a remnant of church elders in there someplace