Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith
- Thread starter DevotiontoBible
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
PennEd,
This is the primary fallacy of Calvinism in assuming that people "muster up faith" on their own steam and thus it becomes a point to boast about. That is a total misrepresentation of what the Bible teaches.
The biblical teaching on saving faith is that sinners MUST hear the Gospel which is the "seed" for the New Birth. That is why we have the Great Commission, and the Church has a mandate to preach the Gospel to every creature. When the Gospel is preached the Holy Spirit is NOT absent but very much involved with the effectiveness of the Gospel message. So the Holy Spirit BOTH convinces and convicts the sinner while the Gospel is presented. And that is how faith is generated. That is why Paul says FAITH COMETH BY HEARING and hearing by the Word of God.
If God were to give saving faith to sinners as a gift, He would give that gift to each and every person on this planet. After all God will have ALL MEN to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This is the primary fallacy of Calvinism in assuming that people "muster up faith" on their own steam and thus it becomes a point to boast about. That is a total misrepresentation of what the Bible teaches.
The biblical teaching on saving faith is that sinners MUST hear the Gospel which is the "seed" for the New Birth. That is why we have the Great Commission, and the Church has a mandate to preach the Gospel to every creature. When the Gospel is preached the Holy Spirit is NOT absent but very much involved with the effectiveness of the Gospel message. So the Holy Spirit BOTH convinces and convicts the sinner while the Gospel is presented. And that is how faith is generated. That is why Paul says FAITH COMETH BY HEARING and hearing by the Word of God.
If God were to give saving faith to sinners as a gift, He would give that gift to each and every person on this planet. After all God will have ALL MEN to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
A
This goes into the debate between universal versus limited atonement.
You obviously believe in universal atonement, while reformed folks believe in limited atonement...however that is a different topic then the op..late to this party so reading posts backwards and out of order.
.kind of confusing to figure out where the conversation is currently.
I believe in universal atonement but that not all people are saved because through God's preveient grace..we are given the ability to choose this day Good or Evil: faith in Christ or being kept under the old covenant Law.
You obviously believe in universal atonement, while reformed folks believe in limited atonement...however that is a different topic then the op..late to this party so reading posts backwards and out of order.
.kind of confusing to figure out where the conversation is currently.
I believe in universal atonement but that not all people are saved because through God's preveient grace..we are given the ability to choose this day Good or Evil: faith in Christ or being kept under the old covenant Law.
simple application of the transitive property to "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" shows that God is the originator of faith. it comes by His word, and His word comes out of Himself & does not return to Him empty but "accomplishes His desire and purpose" - He is "living and active"
who else could be?? "all things are made by Him" both "visible and invisible," even "the hearing ear" the LORD has made.
((re: Romans 10:17, Isaiah 55:11, John 1:1, Hebrews 4:12, Colossians 1:16, Proverbs 20:12))
who else could be?? "all things are made by Him" both "visible and invisible," even "the hearing ear" the LORD has made.
((re: Romans 10:17, Isaiah 55:11, John 1:1, Hebrews 4:12, Colossians 1:16, Proverbs 20:12))
I would say that regeneration is a new heart given to elect ones.
This new heart produces interest about spiritual things, about God, is sensitive to the calling of the Holy Spirit, feels the guilt of sins and responds positively to gospel.
It produces faith in the similar way as earth produces plant (and information about God - gospel - is a seed).
This new heart produces interest about spiritual things, about God, is sensitive to the calling of the Holy Spirit, feels the guilt of sins and responds positively to gospel.
It produces faith in the similar way as earth produces plant (and information about God - gospel - is a seed).
Last edited:
because information in this universe generally travels at the speed of light, relative motion can make events that are in actuality simultaneous appear to take place in sequence, the particulars of that sequence determined by the location and motion of the observer. two observers with non-inertial frames of reference can record a different order of events, even if the events themselves are simultaneous in absolute terms.
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
how do you have faith in something you consider foolish, cannot understand and cannot possibly discern?
this is the type of conundrum which leads to the conclusion that faith cannot exist apart from a regeneration. "while we were dead He hat quickened us" -- iirc it goes under the umbrella of "total depravity" but you know, basically everything i know about Calvin i read in these forums, specifically in threads written by people trashing Calvin. possible i'm misrepresenting.
what's the alternative?
a dead, blind, deaf man whose heart is utterly hostile to the Spirit comes to faith in the things his own soul hates, and afterwards comes to life, having only later his ears and eyes opened to see the thing he has faith in?
((yeah, i can probably phrase it to sound even more absurd. proofs are formed at extrema))
are these the only two possible views?
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
is this really saying you cannot accept the Spirit of God unless you have the Spirit of God?
wow!! Lord i need thee!!
Exactly. And that is why we have this BIZARRE notion that regeneration PRECEDES faith. Universal atonement (as you call it) means that Christ died for the sins of the whole world. But that does not lead to Universalism, since God has set two condtions before all men: (1) repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).
We need to understand that Calvin slavishly followed the ideas of Augustine in that the human will is "a slave to sin" and that total depravity means that sinners cannot even respond to the Gospel unless they are regenerated. But that is sheer nonsense. Paul calls the Gospel "THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION" since the power of the Holy Spirit accompanies the true Gospel, and faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. But Calvinists simply ignore this because they are locked into the false idea that God has DECREED some for salvation and others for damnation.
We need to understand that Calvin slavishly followed the ideas of Augustine in that the human will is "a slave to sin" and that total depravity means that sinners cannot even respond to the Gospel unless they are regenerated. But that is sheer nonsense. Paul calls the Gospel "THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION" since the power of the Holy Spirit accompanies the true Gospel, and faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. But Calvinists simply ignore this because they are locked into the false idea that God has DECREED some for salvation and others for damnation.
