Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[Stunnedbygrace]

I said belief has different forms.

that is not mental agreement, that is trust. More than mere belief

So when you said earlier that you believed for many years but did not trust, were you saved during those years?

Because you say in your last sentence here: trust is more than mere belief/mental agreement.

Does this mean mere mental agreement, but without trust, saves a man?

Maybe I'm just too tired to try to understand right now how it is possible for a man to be saved by believing what even the demons believe, yet without trusting God.

Its like saying...I believe He died for me but I do not trust that He died for me. Or...I believe what He said about not worrying about my provision but I don't trust what He said about my provision.

From your earlier post, I got this: I believe I will live forever, but I don't trust Him. I believe what He said but I don't trust what He said.

My mind can't grasp it...

 

[PennEd]

The evidence. Paul gives a partial descriptor of faith that people think is the be all and end all of faith, but it is not. He is talking about our faith being in the HOPE of things to come, that is, the promises of Christ fulfilled at the end of this age: that is what we have not seen.

Elsewhere in Scripture, we are told that God has made Himself EVIDENT to all.

For since the creation of the world His invisibleattributes are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead.
​

Those who suppress this truth have put themselves on
the throne of their lives. It is called the pride of life.
​

Sister, can't disagree with anything you said. But still doesn't scratch where I'm itching!

It COULD be the case as I've said before, that some that have a measure of faith simply refuse to access that faith and believe, but why DO some access it?

The answer HAS to be from Jesus own lips.

NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER UNLESS THE FATHER DRAWS HIM.

 

[Laish]

Thats what empowers us to have faiht, But we still have to have faith, God will not force us to do it.. Many will have the same opportunity and never have faith.

Thats my whole point, we still have to make a decision, the drowning person could have kept trying to save himself and died.. The one who relented and said ok, Save me is the one who will be saved.

So what made him relent was it something in him to start with ? If both are given a equal opportunity for salvation.
Blessings
Bill

 

[BenFTW]

Sister, can't disagree with anything you said. But still doesn't scratch where I'm itching!

It COULD be the case as I've said before, that some that have a measure of faith simply refuse to access that faith and believe, but why DO some access it?

The answer HAS to be from Jesus own lips.

NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER UNLESS THE FATHER DRAWS HIM.

No one is disputing the inability that humanity has to save itself, but emphasizing the power to believe is an option God in His sovereignty has bestowed to mankind. The fact of the matter is that a person can reject God, even if its God's desire that all be saved. The fact that its His desire means under many of the other's perspectives and belief systems that God can give faith to all and ultimately be a doctrine of universalism. Yet, God doesn't save all, why?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

So then total inability?

You are taking what that says too far. It says we were dead in trespasses and sins, not that we were absolutely dead and unable to do anything.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So when you said earlier that you believed for many years but did not trust, were you saved during those years?

How could I be saved if I did not have faith?

Because you say in your last sentence here: trust is more than mere belief/mental agreement.

Yes, I had mental agreement, not trust. I believed in God, but I did not yet trust him or understand what I needed to be saved.

Does this mean mere mental agreement, but without trust, saves a man?

No

Maybe I'm just too tired to try to understand right now how it is possible for a man to be saved by believing what even the demons believe, yet without trusting God.

Its like saying...I believe He died for me but I do not trust that He died for me. Or...I believe what He said about not worrying about my provision but I don't trust what He said about my provision.

From your earlier post, I got this: I believe I will live forever, but I don't trust Him. I believe what He said but I don't trust what He said.

My mind can't grasp it...

I can not understand how you can not grasp it. I am not saying things which are hard. I am stating that I can believe in God and not trust him.

Just because I believe in God does not mean I believe I will live forever. Or that I will think I need saved, I can believe in God and still think I need to save myself. Like the jews. And add works to the gospel.. Where is my faith there? In my works, or in God?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So what made him relent was it something in him to start with ? If both are given a equal opportunity for salvation.
Blessings
Bill

What would be in a person to make them believe vs disbelieve? That makes no sense, Faith did not come from me, it came from Gods work.. It was offered to both. One chose to say yes, the other chose to say no. There was nothign different in one person than in the other.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes, a defense is still made of course, but not to prove innocence per se, but to refute the evidence, however the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt is upon the shoulders of the prosecution.

Haha..sidetracking your own thread ..its all good.

In theory yes, but a defense is still made, no? The jury hears both parties and based upon such.. hearings, they then make an informed decision, right? It seems to me then the defense is just as important if not more so for the innocence to be retained.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes I agree.

You are taking what that says too far. It says we were dead in trespasses and sins, not that we were absolutely dead and unable to do anything.

 

[PennEd]

A drowning man is not dead.

Ephesians 2, and other placrs are crystal clear that we were dead. We weren't floundering around, flapping our arms to stay afloat. We were dead.

Please read that Chapter. Paying special attention to verse 4.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Well sister that's good, but doesn't answer the question though does it. Plus I totally disagree with your reading of Ephesians 2.
Where does your faith to believe come from?

From the same place the atheist gets his hands and feet but refuses to worship God with. Everyone has the ability to have faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A drowning man is not dead.

Ephesians 2, and other placrs are crystal clear that we were dead. We weren't floundering around, flapping our arms to stay afloat. We were dead.

Please read that Chapter. Paying special attention to verse 4.

A drowning man is dead. Just as dead as a person who is spiritually dead. If they are not saved, they will suffer death forever. Because neither person can save themselves.

If a dead man can not repent,. He can not be saved. Yet God said for us to repent., he told us he will knock we should open, he told us to come to him and he will give us rest, he told isreal he wanted to gather them but they were not willing.

Your misunderstanding spiritual death, it’s does not mean we can nto do anything, if we could not do anything, Jesus death would be in vein,

Spirituyal death means we are separated from God, because of sin, And unable to save ourselves. The tax collector. While dead, fell on his knees and called out to God to save him. Because of this, he was saved.

 

[PennEd]

No one is disputing the inability that humanity has to save itself, but emphasizing the power to believe is an option God in His sovereignty has bestowed to mankind. The fact of the matter is that a person can reject God, even if its God's desire that all be saved. The fact that its His desire means under many of the other's perspectives and belief systems that God can give faith to all and ultimately be a doctrine of universalism. Yet, God doesn't save all, why?

"Emphasizing the power to believe"

I'm sorry, truly, but lolol.

Juuust couldn't quite bring yourself to say it was a gift from God, had to try and sneak in there "emphasize"?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Yes I agree.

I must have grabbed the wrong quote. I meant to respond to the one saying we were like dead people who can't do anything.

 

[Laish]

What would be in a person to make them believe vs disbelieve? That makes no sense, Faith did not come from me, it came from Gods work.. It was offered to both. One chose to say yes, the other chose to say no. There was nothign different in one person than in the other.

Then why is one saved and the other not ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then why is one saved and the other not ?
Blessings
Bill

One had faith in God, one did not.

He wh0o believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the only begotten son of God.

God will not force salvation on anyone, But a realstionship[ (which GFod desires) demands ability to say yes or no. I can not appreciate all God has for me if I do not learn what happens when I say no.

In my view, there is no relationship apart from free will.. If Adam could not say no freely, He would not have had a relationship.

Ask yourself this question If God is soverign and God is all powerful. And God is righteous and just, does he have the right, or ability to give up anything to make a relationship between himself and his creation work?

 

[PennEd]

A drowning man is dead. Just as dead as a person who is spiritually dead. If they are not saved, they will suffer death forever. Because neither person can save themselves.

If a dead man can not repent,. He can not be saved. Yet God said for us to repent., he told us he will knock we should open, he told us to come to him and he will give us rest, he told isreal he wanted to gather them but they were not willing.

Your misunderstanding spiritual death, it’s does not mean we can nto do anything, if we could not do anything, Jesus death would be in vein,

Spirituyal death means we are separated from God, because of sin, And unable to save ourselves. The tax collector. While dead, fell on his knees and called out to God to save him. Because of this, he was saved.

Sorry brother. Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I know GOD gave me the faith to believe. I would've continued to merrily do the bad list of stuff in Corinthians and elsewhere had HE not intervened in my life.

I get zero, zilch, nada, credit, because HE GAVE ME THE FAITH TO BELIEVE.

So not much sense going on, but still love you and pray for blessings to you and yours, and anyone else here that thinks differently. Good night!

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Then why is one saved and the other not ?
Blessings
Bill

Because those of us who are saved loved righteousness not evil:
And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. “For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants. ”
John 3:14*-‬21 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.3.14-21.NLT

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry brother. Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I know GOD gave me the faith to believe. I would've continued to merrily do the bad list of stuff in Corinthians and elsewhere had HE not intervened in my life.

I get zero, zilch, nada, credit, because HE GAVE ME THE FAITH TO BELIEVE.

So not much sense going on, but still love you and pray for blessings to you and yours, and anyone else here that thinks differently. Good night!

Please brother. Tell me where me having free will to trust my life to God gives me any right to take credit for my salvation.

We both believe God gave us faith by what he did, You even agreed with me when I posted all God did.. Me choosing to trust God does not make me more worthy than anyone else. I am still unworthy, even in my faith, Because I am a sinner. Me saying yes to god did not make me any more worthy than you,. Or grace, or Bill or anyone 4else. God got and continues to recieve all the credit.

And I love you bro.. Een if we never agree on this, Unlike some, I will nto hold that against you, I am just sharing my view. Your agreeing with me has no bearing on our brother hood or friendsahip.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because those of us who are saved loved righteousness not evil:
And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. “For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants. ”
John 3:14*-‬21 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.3.14-21.NLT

This is to close to works my friend, Your trying to take credit wher no credit is due.

I did not love righteousness when I was saved, I did not even understand what righteousness was, I only understood I was a sinner, who was lost. Dead, and headed to hell. Unless I was rescued, and was told that God loved me and sent his son to die in my place. That if I allow him, he will make me alive and adopt me as his. Child.