Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[Depleted]

then we have no capacity to have faith

a drowning person is dead, if he is not rescued.

And you got it! We were dead before God gave us life!

 

[Depleted]

It is not flawed if the drowning man is incapable of swimming. He cannot save himself, and in that example, it is sufficient to make a point that parallels our inability to save ourselves. Emphasizing that we are saved by grace through faith, faith being our response to God's conviction.

Sure he could, and according to your own story that's exactly what he did. He reached out to the lifeguard.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You took my comment out of context which was about what is actually written in the discourse with Nicodemus you Calvinists are ignoring what is actually written. You guys aren't reading the Bible. You are reading into it.

That is called a strawman, The same argument could be used against you, People could say your reading into it. Thats why you do not use those when trying to discuss. It is a non responsive post..

Stick to the main points, and do not add to the word, or points, this which do not add to the conversation.

 

[Depleted]

So then total inability?

Yup!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, he isn't because he just finished explaining in ch 6 that a Christian is not a slave to sin anymore but this guy is 7:14.

No he is not a slave to sin in chapter 7, A slave has no choice, he has to do what his master says, thats why I said, He clan not do what is right or follow the spirit if he is presalvation.

chapter 6 Paul states a point’

CHapter 7 Paul states there is still a battle

Chapt4er is is how we resolve the battles.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The question Paul is addressing is if the law is sinful 7:7 not is a Christian sinful. If you are still living a sinful life then I am worried for you.

He never said he was living a sinful life. You just added to the word. He said when he lived by the flesh he could not do what was right. That is not living in sin. He is explaining WHY he still sins to begin with.

I am still worried for you if you think you are sinless. And think you no longer struggle, you will suffer a great fall one day.

 

[valiant]

The question Paul is addressing is if the law is sinful 7:7 not is a Christian sinful. If you are still living a sinful life then I am worried for you.

LOL if you think you're NOT living a sinful life I feel worried for YOU. If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is this your answer to this?



Because, whoa! If it is, you have just admitted faith is God's gift.

And, if that's true, then two things must happen:
1. I must faint.
2. You just said even faith is part of what God gives us to save us.

(Feeling a little dizzy, but cannot faint until you agree with this. lol)

I never stated Faith was not Gods gift.

If people would stop and actually listen to others, they would have known this, and this would not be such a surprise.


yet that gift is offered to ALL MEN, not just the few men as some seem to want to say.

 

[preacher4truth]

And just love those who post ad hominem attacks w/o stating their beliefs.

Best to just ignore him/that imo. Sower of discord, unsubstantiated accusations...par for his course, plus his false gospel.

 

[Depleted]

No one is disputing the inability that humanity has to save itself, but emphasizing the power to believe is an option God in His sovereignty has bestowed to mankind. The fact of the matter is that a person can reject God, even if its God's desire that all be saved. The fact that its His desire means under many of the other's perspectives and belief systems that God can give faith to all and ultimately be a doctrine of universalism. Yet, God doesn't save all, why?

You're backwards! You've got horse-cart.

It's not that man has the capability to reject God. All men DO reject God.
John 3:[FONT=&quot]19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.[/FONT]


What changes that? God!!!
John 3:21 [FONT=&quot]But whoever [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]does what is true [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”[/FONT]

Horse-cart!

 

[Depleted]

You are taking what that says too far. It says we were dead in trespasses and sins, not that we were absolutely dead and unable to do anything.

LOL

What next -- partly-pregnant?

LOL

 

[preacher4truth]

You could use more training, because what you're trying to teach doesn't match either AG or CC.

Actually that wouldn't be accurate. Chuck Smith is well known for ridiculing Reformed theology, and for taking a jab at adherence to sound doctrine.

[video=youtube;U8whxBj2fQY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8whxBj2fQY[/video]

 

[preacher4truth]

It is not flawed if the drowning man is incapable of swimming. He cannot save himself, and in that example, it is sufficient to make a point that parallels our inability to save ourselves. Emphasizing that we are saved by grace through faith, faith being our response to God's conviction.

And still no Scripture whatsoever. Do you hold an aversion to actual Scripture usage and subsequent sound doctrine? It appears you like the way you sound more so than the word and just merely philosophize. It is not truth you are dispensing, nor is it the Gospel.

 

[Depleted]

How could I be saved if I did not have faith? ...

(Answering just this part, but acknowledging you said much more.)

The same way you can be saved with faith -- God!!! God saves. God gives faith. Not this complicated. God gifts a whole bunch. He gifts us with justification, grace, forgiveness, love, hope, ability to do his good. He even keeps gifting us. Gifts us with knowledge, wisdom, the ability to do services for our bros, healing, teaching, prophecy, etc. etc.

And he gives us even more -- love joy, peace, forbearance, (okay, so maybe neither one of us has that one in great supply, but we have some), kindness, goodness, and self-control.

God isn't stingy. He gives more than one thing to us!

I just looked up the gifts and the fruit God gives us and excluded one word two times -- Faith!

I didn't use that word, because you already thought you had that gift to become saved. But, I have to ask, if that was there to become saved, then why does he keep having to give us the same thing again?

Personally, I consider faith something like a US Savings Bond. In the tradition of my family, each child was gifted with one of those at birth. It costs half-value of what it would mature to become. Can't faith be like that? Something we get a little of at birth, and matures the longer we follow the Lord, so it grows as we grow?

 

[Depleted]

A drowning man is dead. Just as dead as a person who is spiritually dead. If they are not saved, they will suffer death forever. Because neither person can save themselves.

If a dead man can not repent,. He can not be saved. Yet God said for us to repent., he told us he will knock we should open, he told us to come to him and he will give us rest, he told isreal he wanted to gather them but they were not willing.

Your misunderstanding spiritual death, it’s does not mean we can nto do anything, if we could not do anything, Jesus death would be in vein,

Spirituyal death means we are separated from God, because of sin, And unable to save ourselves. The tax collector. While dead, fell on his knees and called out to God to save him. Because of this, he was saved.

Why can it not be we are saved, and once we are alive (regenerated) and face-to-face with the Lord we immediately see who we were and do the obvious -- repent? Salvation causes repentance. It is the obvious outcome of being dinked into God's light. We immediately see the darkness in us, and cry out in sorrow and shame. Why? Because his light is beautiful! And we want it, but only after he gives it to us.

 

[Depleted]

Because those of us who are saved loved righteousness not evil:
And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. “For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants. ”
John 3:14*-‬21 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.3.14-21.NLT

Peachy keen. So you deserve it.

Then you don't need God, because you saved yourself.

 

[Depleted]

Only slightly dead, eh?

What's that like? I thought dead/alive is binary

It's like partly-pregnant. lol

 

[Depleted]

We must agree to differ,

At this moment in time, every single person who has posted on this thread has disagreed with Devo. Every. Single. Person. Whether Calvinist or non-Calvinist. Whether WoFer or not. Every. Single. Person.

So, of course, we're all wrong and he's all right.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

(Answering just this part, but acknowledging you said much more.)

The same way you can be saved with faith -- God!!! God saves. God gives faith. Not this complicated. God gifts a whole bunch. He gifts us with justification, grace, forgiveness, love, hope, ability to do his good. He even keeps gifting us. Gifts us with knowledge, wisdom, the ability to do services for our bros, healing, teaching, prophecy, etc. etc.

And he gives us even more -- love joy, peace, forbearance, (okay, so maybe neither one of us has that one in great supply, but we have some), kindness, goodness, and self-control.

God isn't stingy. He gives more than one thing to us!

I just looked up the gifts and the fruit God gives us and excluded one word two times -- Faith!

I didn't use that word, because you already thought you had that gift to become saved. But, I have to ask, if that was there to become saved, then why does he keep having to give us the same thing again?

Personally, I consider faith something like a US Savings Bond. In the tradition of my family, each child was gifted with one of those at birth. It costs half-value of what it would mature to become. Can't faith be like that? Something we get a little of at birth, and matures the longer we follow the Lord, so it grows as we grow?

If I do not have faith, I am not saved, Because I have rejected the gospel of christ, and because of unbelief, I am condemned, period. End of story

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why can it not be we are saved, and once we are alive (regenerated) and face-to-face with the Lord we immediately see who we were and do the obvious -- repent? Salvation causes repentance. It is the obvious outcome of being dinked into God's light. We immediately see the darkness in us, and cry out in sorrow and shame. Why? Because his light is beautiful! And we want it, but only after he gives it to us.

How can you be made alive, when your still dead in sin?

I have yet to hear anyone ADEQUATELY explain this to me.

Also, Salvation does not cause repentance, Repentace leads to salvation. You have it backwards.