Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith
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Your post was on target....consider this as time permits;
The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Let's continue the thought in Hebrews 11...39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Were the OT saints, before the cross, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb?
Were they sealed by the Holy Spirit?
Were they born again?
Were they part of the body of Christ?
Were there sins washed away?
Were they absent from the body and present with the Lord? If they were the previous, then they would have been absent from the body and present with the Lord upon dying, instead they were being kept safe in Abraham's bosom.
Were the OT saints, before the cross, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb?
Were they sealed by the Holy Spirit?
Were they born again?
Were they part of the body of Christ?
Were there sins washed away?
Were they absent from the body and present with the Lord? If they were the previous, then they would have been absent from the body and present with the Lord upon dying, instead they were being kept safe in Abraham's bosom.
You're saying that God got them to repent by lying to them. If God knew ahead of time that Nineveh was going to repent and in turn He was not going to destroy them, then the statement, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown" is a lie knowing full well He was not going to overthrown them. That's not God. God is not a liar. Let Scripture define what omniscience means and not man. Where do you get your definitions?
Just love how alleged believers make up what others believe. LOL!!!!!!! 
Some people don't recognize their own misunderstandings; and give voice to them as if they knew what they were talking about.
We may disagree on limited atonement; but I don't like the idea of distorting other people's positions either.
At least we manage to disagree without disrespecting each other.
Righteousness was imputed in the OT saving those who believed. Righteousness in the NT is imputed saving those who believe. OT believing God would send His Messiah Redeemer Savior Who is Christ. NT believing God sent His Messiah Redeemer Savior Who is Christ Jesus.
The Holy Spirit moved upon men in the OT. The Holy Spirit moves within men in the NT in partial fulfillment of Joel 2.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The Holy Spirit moved upon men in the OT. The Holy Spirit moves within men in the NT in partial fulfillment of Joel 2.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
When God speaks, it is the truth. God was going to destroy them in forty days, yet He decided not to destroy them. If you say He knew all along that Nineveh was going to repent and He would not destroy them, you make God out to be a liar.
God is not going to lie to get people to respond to His word.
God is not going to lie to get people to respond to His word.
U
Yes that typically does happen. And one person gets attacked from all sides or one person is attacking everyone else.
Too much emotionalism...but why I do not understand.
If a person is so convinced they have the absolute truth, an airtight system of theology based on the word of God, it should stand up well to questioning.
In my experience, in my line of work the most assured confident person with a good grasp of the facts is the person who does not need or use ad hominem attacks.
or one person is attacking everyone else.Too much emotionalism...but why I do not understand.
If a person is so convinced they have the absolute truth, an airtight system of theology based on the word of God, it should stand up well to questioning.
In my experience, in my line of work the most assured confident person with a good grasp of the facts is the person who does not need or use ad hominem attacks.
U
He really is not saying that. I have not seen anyone on this site say unregenerate people are saved.
Now sometimes people type and do not reread what they have typed so unfortunately the meaning of their words is convoluted and they themselves do not see it because they know what they were trying to say.
No everyone has clarity of written expression and we should have patience to let them clarify. IMHO
But if you can find that clear statement by Devo (as you call him) I will eat my words.
Now sometimes people type and do not reread what they have typed so unfortunately the meaning of their words is convoluted and they themselves do not see it because they know what they were trying to say.
No everyone has clarity of written expression and we should have patience to let them clarify. IMHO
But if you can find that clear statement by Devo (as you call him) I will eat my words.
No, they didn't receive the inheritance of Holy Spirit. Their sins were covered, not removed. And their destination was Abraham's bosom. But, they had the promise through baptism of what was to come. Though they didn't understand, they called turning to God and to the law, Mikvah. New birth.
They were still of Adam, but children of faith through Abraham.
The new covenant is a will. We inherit all of Holy Spirit in the members of His body.
I know it's not asking Jesus into our hearts. That's Passover. We are of Pentecost. Goal being fullness. Tabernacle. One with Him, moving, living, having our very being in Him.
Positionally, we all are of the fullness. Experientially? We all answer individually, yet will be corporate.
So, I have a life, and I am so far behind on the comments, I'm just going to give up the thought of catching yup. But, this post from the earlier pages just must be addressed!
Well, you just lost all credibilty with this post! Because, you don’t know anything about Greek. Or, if you do, then post what you think it says, feel free to exegete the Greek.
For that matter, there is NO GREEK in your post. Greek is a language that needs to be studied for years. Have you done that? I thought not!
Or, to save you some time, I will do exegete the verse for you. Since you do not have a clue! First, the verse in modern English, so I can read it. Oh, and in context! Very important!
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them." Eph. 2:4-10
“τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·9 οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται.” Eph. 2:8-9 Greek
χάριτί - dative singular - grace. Instrumental Dative "by grace." The definite article (τῇ) appears with the word because it is the grace already mentioned. vv 5, 7. The work of the article refers to a concrete application of the abstract noun, namely the work of redemption as a concrete historical fact.
σεσῳσμένοι - Perfect Passive Participle (v 5) -to rescue, save. Perfect points to the completed action with a continuing result, thus emphasizing the continual state or condition. Pf Pass Ptcp should really be translated "have been saved" to emphasis it is completed, but it is important to see that the words have continuing results in the present/future. Use of the verb ἐστε (you - second person plural present tense) is a periphrastic construction, emphasizing the continuing results of one's salvation. This salvation delivers people who are dead in transgressions and are eternally separated from God and can only expect God's wrath.
Again, it could be translated "you have been saved" (ASV, RSV, NASB, TEV, JB, NIV, NJB, NRSV) but the translation "you are saved" conveys the continuing results of being saved. (AV, HCSB, NEB, NET) "Grace" is the objective cause or basis of salvation, and "through faith" is the subjective means by which one is saved. Calvin states that a person must receive by faith the salvation offered to him or her by the hand of God.
διὰ πίστεως - through faith. The preposition διὰindicates the channel through which salvation comes. Faith is NOT viewed as a positive work or accomplishment of the individual. (In other words, you do NOT have faith first!) Only on the basis of grace are people delivered from their desperate situation of sinfulness which separates them from God.
θεοῦ - of God (Genitive 3rd person singular) - the genitive emphasized by its position before the noun and stand in emphatic contrast with the personal pronoun ὑμῶν,(you- Genitive second person plural)
The definitions of these words are from "The Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament" Cleon & Cleon.
So, what does this mean, when we put the sentence together? What is the Greek saying?
First, which is my belief, "by faith" is inseparable companion of "by grace" and together the two expressions stand in stark contrast to any human merit. If God's grace is the ground of salvation, then faith is the means by which it is appropriated. And faith cannot be a meritorious work; it is the response which receives what has already been done for us in Christ.
In order to stress that salvation is by God's grace alone and through faith, Paul adds two balancing negatives: first, "and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. (8b) and second, "not by works, so that anyone can boast." (v9) The first clause, emphasizes the divine initiative and activity. The point being made is that the response of faith does not come from any human source but it is God's gift. In fact, grammatically speaking, the context demands that "this" be understood of salvation, by grace as a whole, including faith (or faithfulness) through which it is received. No separating faith, grace and salvation at all!
God's magnificent rescue from death, wrath and bondage is all of grace. It neither originates in nor is affected by the readers. The divine intention in providing salvation apart from any human effort or achievement is to exclude all human boasting.
The "gift" is that which is outside ourselves and is to be received. Therefore, the gift of salvation has its origin in God, its basis in faith, and it is received by means of faith.
In conclusion, if salvation is a gift of grace, then human beings can do nothing to achieve it. It is God's work, a gift extended with the cause being purely in God's character, not in the character or conduct of any person. No act or virtue can be presented to God to gain acceptance. Remember, grace is God's giving himself to us. We are valued by grace, but the attention is not on us, but on the God who loves so deeply. Grace moves us to worship and true humility. Grace is not just the beginning of the Christian life, but the whole.
To me, this can be summed up to mean "Salvation is all about God!"
Other sources:
Klyne Snodgrass - Ephesians, The NIV Application Commentary
Peter T. O'Brien - The Letter to the Ephesians Pillar New Testament Commentary
Harold W. Boehner - Ephesians: An Exegetical Commentary
Well, you just lost all credibilty with this post! Because, you don’t know anything about Greek. Or, if you do, then post what you think it says, feel free to exegete the Greek.
For that matter, there is NO GREEK in your post. Greek is a language that needs to be studied for years. Have you done that? I thought not!
Or, to save you some time, I will do exegete the verse for you. Since you do not have a clue! First, the verse in modern English, so I can read it. Oh, and in context! Very important!
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them." Eph. 2:4-10
“τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·9 οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται.” Eph. 2:8-9 Greek
χάριτί - dative singular - grace. Instrumental Dative "by grace." The definite article (τῇ) appears with the word because it is the grace already mentioned. vv 5, 7. The work of the article refers to a concrete application of the abstract noun, namely the work of redemption as a concrete historical fact.
σεσῳσμένοι - Perfect Passive Participle (v 5) -to rescue, save. Perfect points to the completed action with a continuing result, thus emphasizing the continual state or condition. Pf Pass Ptcp should really be translated "have been saved" to emphasis it is completed, but it is important to see that the words have continuing results in the present/future. Use of the verb ἐστε (you - second person plural present tense) is a periphrastic construction, emphasizing the continuing results of one's salvation. This salvation delivers people who are dead in transgressions and are eternally separated from God and can only expect God's wrath.
Again, it could be translated "you have been saved" (ASV, RSV, NASB, TEV, JB, NIV, NJB, NRSV) but the translation "you are saved" conveys the continuing results of being saved. (AV, HCSB, NEB, NET) "Grace" is the objective cause or basis of salvation, and "through faith" is the subjective means by which one is saved. Calvin states that a person must receive by faith the salvation offered to him or her by the hand of God.
διὰ πίστεως - through faith. The preposition διὰindicates the channel through which salvation comes. Faith is NOT viewed as a positive work or accomplishment of the individual. (In other words, you do NOT have faith first!) Only on the basis of grace are people delivered from their desperate situation of sinfulness which separates them from God.
θεοῦ - of God (Genitive 3rd person singular) - the genitive emphasized by its position before the noun and stand in emphatic contrast with the personal pronoun ὑμῶν,(you- Genitive second person plural)
The definitions of these words are from "The Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament" Cleon & Cleon.
So, what does this mean, when we put the sentence together? What is the Greek saying?
First, which is my belief, "by faith" is inseparable companion of "by grace" and together the two expressions stand in stark contrast to any human merit. If God's grace is the ground of salvation, then faith is the means by which it is appropriated. And faith cannot be a meritorious work; it is the response which receives what has already been done for us in Christ.
In order to stress that salvation is by God's grace alone and through faith, Paul adds two balancing negatives: first, "and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. (8b) and second, "not by works, so that anyone can boast." (v9) The first clause, emphasizes the divine initiative and activity. The point being made is that the response of faith does not come from any human source but it is God's gift. In fact, grammatically speaking, the context demands that "this" be understood of salvation, by grace as a whole, including faith (or faithfulness) through which it is received. No separating faith, grace and salvation at all!
God's magnificent rescue from death, wrath and bondage is all of grace. It neither originates in nor is affected by the readers. The divine intention in providing salvation apart from any human effort or achievement is to exclude all human boasting.
The "gift" is that which is outside ourselves and is to be received. Therefore, the gift of salvation has its origin in God, its basis in faith, and it is received by means of faith.
In conclusion, if salvation is a gift of grace, then human beings can do nothing to achieve it. It is God's work, a gift extended with the cause being purely in God's character, not in the character or conduct of any person. No act or virtue can be presented to God to gain acceptance. Remember, grace is God's giving himself to us. We are valued by grace, but the attention is not on us, but on the God who loves so deeply. Grace moves us to worship and true humility. Grace is not just the beginning of the Christian life, but the whole.
To me, this can be summed up to mean "Salvation is all about God!"
Other sources:
Klyne Snodgrass - Ephesians, The NIV Application Commentary
Peter T. O'Brien - The Letter to the Ephesians Pillar New Testament Commentary
Harold W. Boehner - Ephesians: An Exegetical Commentary