Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[John146]

You will have a hard time finding this nonsense in any of my posts. The problem is that you are simply unable to deal with the Scriptures which demolish TULIP. So you turn around and make such comments. The false Gospel is the Gospel according to TULIP.

Ephesians 1 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Here's the order: First, you must hear the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Second, you trust, believe in that message. Third, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit of God unto the redemption. What's the redemption? Romans 8:23, the redemption is the adoption. It's a future promise for those who have believed on Jesus. It's what the believer is predestined to as promised by the seal of the Holy Spirit.

 

[stonesoffire]

I shall applaud you

As we plod the road to happy destiny...

Applauding you as well..prodding with the sword as we plod together!

 

[trofimus]

When God speaks, it is the truth. God was going to destroy them in forty days, yet He decided not to destroy them. If you say He knew all along that Nineveh was going to repent and He would not destroy them, you make God out to be a liar.

God is not going to lie to get people to respond to His word.

Warning is not a lie.

Niniveh would be destroyed in three days if it would continue in the same unrepentant way. They repented and therefore warning was successful.

 

[Angela53510]

I was correct then about the Greek grammatical meaning of that verse as it should be understood in English. So, what is your problem?

Whether you were correct is not my issue. You made a lucky guess. When you say , “the Greek says,” then you need to show how! It is incumbent on you to show what the Greek says. When you don’t show the how and why, you are just parroting.

Take some responsibility for your lack of ethics. You don’t know Greek, yet you used it as “proof” for what you said. You proved you are not to be trusted. That was my point, and I called you on it!

 

[posthuman]

Ephesians 1 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Whether you were correct is not my issue. You made a lucky guess. When you say , “the Greek says,” then you need to show how! It is incumbent on you to show what the Greek says. When you don’t show the how and why, you are just parroting.

Angela, i don't know Greek - but you do

can you help me with Ephesians 1:12-14?

i know only enough to get me in trouble. i can see that what the KJV renders in verse 12 "who first trusted" is προηλπικότας - is that ordinal 'first' as in the "we who were the first" ((NASB)) or is it describing a sequence of events as in 'step one, we trusted' ? or is it ambiguous as a word, and if so, does context and / or grammar indicate more strongly one or the other?

and in verse 13, KJV translates "in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed" from "πιστεύσαντες ἐσφραγίσθητε" - two words, roughly 'believed' and 'sealed' -- there's not a word "after" in the text; do the tenses /cases of these two Greek words dictate that there should be?

lastly ((unless there is of course more to add!)) in 14 the KJV reads "until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory" but NASB has "with a view to the redemption of God's own possession" - is 'purchased' implicit by the underlying language or is it 'ownership' according to the actual word in its form without that specific implication?

thanks

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes that typically does happen. And one person gets attacked from all sides or one person is attacking everyone else.

Too much emotionalism...but why I do not understand.

If a person is so convinced they have the absolute truth, an airtight system of theology based on the word of God, it should stand up well to questioning.

In my experience, in my line of work the most assured confident person with a good grasp of the facts is the person who does not need or use ad hominem attacks.

Amen, if your faith is so secure. No one can say anything to offend you, You can just let truth of the word speak for itself. No need to blame shift Ad hominem, Straw man, Belittle or all the other tactics many people who call themselves children of God love to do

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think in Acts 14:8 it says those predestined to life believed. If your theory were correct, it ought to say those who believe are destined to life. But it's the other way around.

Which came first, Belief, or predestination?

Know one would say belief came first. Yet looking at God. He is fully able to predestined based on foreknowledge of what people will do, remember a thousand years is like one day, If (And I hope we all agree) mankinds walk on the earth has been at or near 10000 years, that is only ten days in Gods time period.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't even know what's being said any more EG...
I mean, it happened with me in an instant, which you find hard to believe, given that out of hundreds of people you've met, no one was ever saved in an instant but had to study for years and years first.

Well, that's not how it happened with me. In fact, without receiving the Spirit, those would be wasted years of study because you can't understand what you read without the Spirit.

We read of 5000 people saved in one day in the NT. It didn't take years of study for them. It took less than a day. I mean, there is no biblical example of men studying for years before God could save them. And yet you find it hard to believe that I didn't study for years before God saved me...its so odd to me.

1. I did not say I did not agree with you, I said if that did happen your a special case
2. Those 5000 people who got saved grew up knowing the word, knowing who God was. Much like many Americans who grew up in church, and knew of God and knew of Jesus but decided for whatever reason to make a decision much later in life. Many went through Sunday school for years being taught the word, yet never made a decision. And No. that was not wasted time, Eventually God used all of those years of study to help bring them to himself.

again, I do not want to discuss this anymore. You continue to say you do not understand what I am saying, (which I can not comprehend at all. how many times do I have to say it?) you appear to mock me when your saying it (You keep misquoting me and saying I said things I did not say) so I am not sure you are even being honest here. (this is not the first time this has happened on this very subject)

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And now here...you seem to be using faith and belief synonymously, even though you say you think they are not the same thing and that faith only comes after years of study for you and hundreds you have met...

why do you continue with this? I am asking honestly, You are misrepresenting what I have said, are you out to try to discredit me? You keep up with the same stuff?

I said, there is belief which equals faith (that would be saving faith, or belief which equals trust.)

I have also said, there is mental agreement (which does not have faith) which is also termed as belief
again, It is in the English language, You do not say I faith in someone, You say I believe in someone, yet the belief that saves is NOT MENTAL AGREEMENT.

in other words,

Faith ALWAYS = trust or assurance

Believe CAN = trust or assurance (as used in John 3: 16 and other places) - But belief can also mean mental agreement which does not TRUST or HAVE ASSURANCE


It is not rocket science, what is so hard about this that you do not understand?

 

[stand2]

Which came first, Belief, or predestination?

Know one would say belief came first. Yet looking at God. He is fully able to predestined based on foreknowledge of what people will do, remember a thousand years is like one day, If (And I hope we all agree) mankinds walk on the earth has been at or near 10000 years, that is only ten days in Gods time period.

I would tend to believe that time means nothing to God and placing Him in an hourglass would be selling Him short. The soul enjoys the "free market" available to the world of the flesh, which discounts any predestination, lest it be under God's total control.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So why doesn't the gift of faith that God gives to all men across the board not save all of them?

I do not know. Maybe we can ask God one day.

Me personally? God gave all men the tools to have faith (the word, The HS and his conviction) his revealed word, and the revelation of his creation which gives no man an excuse (romans 1) the fact that all men KNOW they are guilty of sin, and are rightly condemned. (Again romans 1) thus they have no excuse. The fact he has given the word and eyewitness testimony of the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The spoken word of the people God has equipped to go out and spread the gospel. Yet for whatever reason, this means and gift of “faith” God has given to all men, has not taken shape. To me, it is as the word says., romans 1 says they hid the truth (although the knew it) because they loved sin, so they made up their own Gods. Jesus said they do nto see because they do not believe, Some have not opened the door when Jesus knocked. Some are still trying to figure it all out. They believe, but they are not quite sure (they are stuck in religion and tradition so it is hard for them to break free)

So like I said, I guess we will have to ask God one day.

Until then I will just take him at his word. And have FAITH he knows what he is doing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Galatians 3:22

But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Was the Author of the scriptures which bound up all under sin evil to do so?

Amen, That was his plan, In Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.

WHo does the passage say the gift is given to though? Those who believe. Whose beliefs? Christs? Or a persons own trust in Christ?

And if a person trusts christ and all his work. I still wonder how that can be as a man boasting in himself.

 

[followjesus]

Amen, That was his plan, In Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.

WHo does the passage say the gift is given to though? Those who believe. Whose beliefs? Christs? Or a persons own trust in Christ?

And if a person trusts christ and all his work. I still wonder how that can be as a man boasting in himself.

Amen, That was his plan, In Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.

In Adam all die,"

romans 5:12 " Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"


Gods plan

Genesis 1 " And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominionover the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good...."


Gods plan is to make man to be like Jesus and give us dominion along with Jesus. the reason the world was cursed, is in no way Gods will. His will is that man live eternally it always has been

Genesis 2 " And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

God says this because His will is for adam to live and not die. so He warns adam. Satan then came along and infiltrated mans mind and all the earth is cursed with bondage to decay because adam was given dominion and rule. remember this parable


Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."


God made adam with free will. he told Him all the trees are yours, you are free to eat of any of the trees....and then He warned adam, But this tree of good and evil, you must not for when you do you will die"


satan exploited this he saw it " now if i can deceive them and they freely eat the fruit, Gods word will come to pass and they will surely die"


satan used the afforded opportunity to deceive and tempt adam, that lead man into death, its why all of us are born and Know we will die.

Satan also tried remember to tempt and deceive Jesus with Gods words, But Jesus stayed with the Word that is written and will never change and He overcame satans lies, this leads the world back into " reconciliation" with God, back into Life. adam taught our minds death and Jesus teaches Life. ultimately we will be back to the beginning before the fall. made in Gods image and likeness and will inherit the earth as princes and Kings.

what adam lost and caused, Jesus has undone and restored.

adam resulted in this and brought death to mankind

genesis 3 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."


and Jesus promises reconcilaition and the end is eternal Life and restoration of the very thoing adam lost for us

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."


adam brought those flaming swords and angels to keep us from the tree of life, because we were cursed to death. Jesus comes offering eternal Life and reconciliation with God. the end is the same will God has always Had for us, to bless us, and Love and Keep and provide for us, to give us true Life that is seperate from death, life not like the flowers of the field, but Life like unto the son of God, eternal Life.


adam makes us sinners, Jesus offers a new birth as children of God. Life and Death.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Angela, i don't know Greek - but you do

can you help me with Ephesians 1:12-14?

i know only enough to get me in trouble. i can see that what the KJV renders in verse 12 "who first trusted" is προηλπικότας - is that ordinal 'first' as in the "we who were the first" ((NASB)) or is it describing a sequence of events as in 'step one, we trusted' ? or is it ambiguous as a word, and if so, does context and / or grammar indicate more strongly one or the other?

From what I am seeing, the word first is not even there, The word trusted is Perfect, Active, Pasrticiple, Plural Accusative

then in verse 13, Where the NKJV says, “In him, you also trusted” The word trusted is not there, the words you also are. The word trusted was added. (I did not know this before. Thanks)

and in verse 13, KJV translates "

in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed" from "πιστεύσαντες ἐσφραγίσθητε" - two words, roughly 'believed' and 'sealed' -- there's not a word "after" in the text; do the tenses /cases of these two Greek words dictate that there should be?

lastly ((unless there is of course more to add!)) in 14 the KJV reads "until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory" but NASB has "with a view to the redemption of God's own possession" - is 'purchased' implicit by the underlying language or is it 'ownership' according to the actual word in its form without that specific implication?

thanks

The word believed is Aorist, active, plural

the word sealed is Aorist passive plural.

to me this means the group of people were actively believing, yet this believing started at a point of time in the past, and is continuing (Aorist tense) and again, at some point of time in the past and continuing (Aorist) the seal was performed on the ones who were believing.

So it sort of makes sense how the interpreters went about I guess.

We who first trusted, in him you also trusted , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whome you also, havingbelieved, were sealed. (Italics are words added)

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Whether you were correct is not my issue. You made a lucky guess. When you say , “the Greek says,” then you need to show how! It is incumbent on you to show what the Greek says. When you don’t show the how and why, you are just parroting.

Take some responsibility for your lack of ethics. You don’t know Greek, yet you used it as “proof” for what you said. You proved you are not to be trusted. That was my point, and I called you on it!

My statement about the Greek is correct so that proves I'm not to be trusted? That's rich!

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Funny I don't particularly like the NLT at all but I had noticed how you quote it very often. Not this time however. Probably because it says this:

New Living Translation
For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

Perhaps you can show us how the Greek reveals the truth of the statement? Or maybe if you look at the Greek you'll see how wrong you are, and be blessed with a fuller understanding of the Lord and His ways. Why don't you look into that now, and let us know? Surely this would be wiser than picking a random translation solely on the basis that it leans towards your own private interpretation, don't you agree? Seeing that GW is not at all literal here.

The Greek is the same in this verse as Ro 11:32 and it doesn't mean that it is Scripture's will that the world be sinful just like in Ro 11:32 is not saying it's God's will for people to disobey Him:

But Scripture states that the whole world is controlled by the power of sin. Therefore, a promise based on faith in Jesus Christ could be given to those who believe.
Galatians 3:22 GW
https://bible.com/bible/70/gal.3.22.GW

 

[garee]

Let's leave the dead men in their graves and focus on the living ones who were saved. Kindly go to my post which shows the order of salvation according to Acts 2:22-41 and prove from Scripture that that is incorrect. Otherwise there is no point in chanting these Calvinistic mantras.

Chanting, mantras?

I am not talking about the dead ones in the their graves but the ones that live in a corrupted body of death . The kind that the Son of man said of his own.... it could not profit.Its the Spirit that gives new spirit life to the believer, spirit life that could never die.And not a corrupted spirit as in our first birth.

It would seem you have not studied to see how the phrase "hearing of faith" is used. Is it because you believe God does not need faith to work out his works?

A good place to start searching out what the hearing of faith is and whose faith it is in respect as the first work is the book of Galatians chapter 3:1-5.

What kind of a spirit has he given you? Temporal that will not be raised to new spirit life or eternal one that will be raised?

If we have begun with the hearing of His faith or new born again faith that works in the believer to both will and do His good pleasure he will finish it.If he does not begin then there is nothing to finish.He does all the work of his new creation or nothing.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Funny I don't particularly like the NLT at all but I had noticed how you quote it very often. ...Seeing that GW is not at all literal here.

You don't like the NLT and GW because they don't allow you to misinterpret the Scriptures like a literal translation does.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Greek is the same in this verse as Ro 11:32 and it doesn't mean that it is Scripture's will that the world be sinful just like in Ro 11:32 is not saying it's God's will for people to disobey Him:

But Scripture states that the whole world is controlled by the power of sin. Therefore, a promise based on faith in Jesus Christ could be given to those who believe.
Galatians 3:22 GW
https://bible.com/bible/70/gal.3.22.GW

You may want to revisit this, They are not the same.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You don't like the NLT and GW because they don't allow you to misinterpret the Scriptures like a literal translation does.

The NLT is one of, if not the worse translation ever given, I would never want a new believer to use this as their main bible. There are so many incorrection translations of passages it is pitiful.

while granted it is easier to read, that does not help if you have to continually go to the other versions to make sure it is translated correctly.